Device Upgrades

[witpqs]

I should add that #100 'Loop' looks particularly suspicious.

[Bullwinkle58]

I don't like it when I have to question my memory. Getting old and all. So I did a test. Took hours, but I did a test. And my memory wasn't wrong.

Test Parameters

1. New Scenario 2 stock. x6 beta. Head-to-head. 3-day turns.

2. All LCUs on No Replacement, no Upgrade. Every device in pool set to Stockpile=yes.

3. On first turn all aircraft set to Train. All TFs sent to home port with Auto-disable to Yes.

4. San Francisco chosen as test base. Supply spinner to max, Stockpile to Yes. West Coast HQ and one Air HQ in base. All LCUs except base forces and infantry sent away. All CONUS base forces with US Army Infantry squads sent to SF. No COs changed.

5. When everyone arrived set ONLY SF base forces and infantry units (including regiments, a re-built division, and one motorized division) to take Us Army Infantry 1941 squads. Turned on replacements only for those LCUs.

6. Let several months run. In March 1942 checked replacements. Every SF LCU at full TOE of infantry squads. Turned off replacements for everybody. Set 1941 squads to stockpile in pools. Ran up to June 30th. Saved testbed game.

7. Went to 1-day turns. Ran July 1, 1942 turn. Set now-producing 1942 squads to stockpile in pools. Ran in one day turns until 18 squads present in pools. 1941 squads continued to produce in overlap at 2 per day. 1942 squads producing at 2 per day.

8. On test turn:

-turned ON upgrade and turned ON replacements for ONLY the 11 USAAF base forces at SF. Set them to Rest mode. Each had a TOE target of 12ea 1942 squads. Each had a current inventory of 12ea 1941 squads.

--Infantry squad 1942 pool at 18 squads. Stockpile OFF
--Infantry squad 1941 pool at over 300 squads. Stockpile OFF

Ran the turn.

9. RESULTS

In Allied phase of the next turn, check the results.

--At SF, of the 11 USAAF base forces set to upgrade, 9 had a full inventory of 1942 infantry squads. IOW, 108 squads had been inserted into LCUs from a beginning inventory the previous turn of 18 squads. The other two base forces had a "=" next to the device line. (The other base forces not set to upgrade did as well.)

This test shows that, at least for USAAF base forces, recycling of infantry squads DOES occur. I don't have enough squads in the pools to see if multiple regiments will do the same thing. I may run the test ahead a few months and see, but I can't right now.

I don't doubt that division upgrades behave as you have seen. It's possible there is a check on LCU size, as having to wait a day between base force upgrades would run the upgrade cycle out a long time, and only then could the player begin to save production for the large units. Or, it could be that this piece of code is spaghetti and Michael changed some and not the rest. It's possible the change notes you cited mean something else; they're very cryptic. Or something else.

As for why it did 9 base forces and not all 11 when there wasn't even enough in the pools to do 2 without recycling I have no idea.

[Bullwinkle58]

Following up, I did run the test ahead to check on regiments, all at SF with the same parameters as above. They all wanted 91 squads to upgrade. I triggered the upgrade of 10 regiments, with all other LCUs Upgrade/Replacement=OFF with the Infantry squad 1942 pool number at 95 squads.

Five regiments upgraded to full TOE in one turn. Five remained with 1941 squads. Maybe random, but the upgrade seemed to favor yellow regiments, and not favor white restricted.

[witpqs]

Moose,

There is something very strange going on. Mine works the way I described turn in and turn out without regard to the size of the unit. In no case will a number of squads that is greater than the pool amount of new squads actually upgrade per turn. In effect, I have been running tests, just like you have, turn after turn.

We ought to communicate this to Michael, along with version information and whatever game options are in effect. Something is messed up.

There is some randomness or other factors built in, as I know that sometimes a unit will take a couple of turns to upgrade even when it is the only one that wants to do so. Supply is definitely an issue of some kind, where I often see that units at a base with only a few hundred supply present (at the base, I mean) will not upgrade but do so when supply is up to, say, a couple thousand. So those two base forces that you note did not upgrade when a bunch of others did upgrade are not really of concern. Those two might have been a failed leader check, or something.

But randomness can not explain is always working a certain way for me and a different way for you. heck, it might even be some wacky bug like switching back and forth between multi-day and one-day turns messes up a bit or byte in the save file and things go south from there.

I'm going to alert Michael to this thread. Maybe we'll both have to send him save files for comparison.

[witpqs]

I posted here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3604963

[Bullwinkle58]

Ok. I don't have pre-and post save, but I saved the testbed at four different points of pool build, including right before I ran the tests.

I don't think changing from 3-day to 1-day is a factor since the base force behavior is what I saw in a live PBEM game, although the numbers upgraded were different, the rest of the world wasn't isolated, etc.

And I still haven't tried multiple divisions, either whole of in three parts. I wonder if there is a DB labeling difference for an a/b/c split than just doing a stand-alone regiment.

[Alfred]

This is the relevant post from michaelm which "updates" the various posts from Andy Mac.  It is dated 8 April 2011 and can be found in the thread titled "Serious squad upgrade bug 1108k6" located in the Tech sub forum.
 
 
 
Please attach a save where the LCU upgrades and shows the  problem.

The pools themselves don't upgrade. Never have.
The pool of 100 x Inf 41 don't suddenly become a pool of 100 x Inf 42. They are separate pools.
Eventually you can end up with pools of obsolete devices.

Only the devices in the LCUs upgrade.

Actually, now I think of it there was a 'bug' fixed in 1108e where the wrong device was being added back to the pool upon LCU device upgrade. Instead of adding 100 old devices back, it was adding 100 of the upgraded device back to the pool.
In other words, it took 100 units of the new device out of the pool to upgrade the LCU, and them added back 100 units as the new upgraded device. So upgrading had no net effect on the upgraded device pool.

Re-examing the code, it is split into 2 parts - one for squads/eng and one for the rest.
The squad code probably should add the devices back as new ones since Japanese squads are returned to the Manpower pool rather than the device pool - the Japan production can use the MP to build new squads of the upgraded type.

The drawback for adding upgraded devices as new is that they are immediately available to upgrade another unit on the next turn. You wind up with a domino effect. It would be nice if these devices returning to the pool could be 'delayed' like planes can.
 
 
 
I won't go into the history of the "bug fixes" but what michaelm was "correcting" was moving back to the intent of Andy Mac, which is the situation outlined by Bullwinkle.  That intent had been "unbalanced" by some subsequent "bug fixes".  The key point is that immediate availability is the intent, but this intent is not always possible to ensure that the daisy wheel operates perfectly.  For example one could have 5 units set to upgrade and only the first 4 do so on the same turn because
 
(a) the fifth unit ran out of supply to purchase the new "devices", or
 
(b) somewhere else another unit which had already upgraded its TOE but was understrength got to purchase its replacements before the fifth unit, with the net result that by the time the fifth unit looked at purchasing its new devices, the pool had dipped below the requisite number

 
 
In view of the several threads which have been opened just this week on the same topic ie LCU upgrades, it is appropriate to summarise the following points.
 
1.  TOE upgrades and device upgrades are separate, independent actions.
 
2.  A TOE upgrade occurs automatically, without any player input, when these LCU conditions are met:
 
(a) it is in "rest" mode
(b) it is located at a friendly base
(c) it is within 2x the command range of a Command Level HQ
 
3.  Device upgrades require player input and occur when:
 
(a) for squad/engineer devices, when a 1:1 pool ratio exists, for all other devices when the pool ratio is 1.5:1
(b) sufficient supply is available to purchase the new devices
(c) the unit has replacements turned on and the upgrade toggle is on
 
NB - although not mentioned ever by any developer I strongly suspect the current code status ties in the purchasing of the new upgraded devices to the normal device replacement cycle, IOW if a unit took replacements on Monday but with upgrade toggled off and on Tuesday has upgrade toggled on, it won't purchase any new devices until it is next able to check for replacements on Thursday.
 
4.  After purchasing the new upgraded squad/engineer devices, the superseded squad/engineer devices are converted to the upgraded standard and sent to the pool.  Superseded non squad/engineer devices are sent back to the pool in their superseded standard.
 
5.  The only devices in the pool which are themselves upgraded there are superseded squad/engineer devices.  They start to convert to the new standard 6 months after they were superseded.
 
Alfred

[Bullwinkle58]

Alfred, as usual, thanks for the summary and clear thinking. I insert comments in-line below. I agree with what you say, but I would like to point out that I took extreme measures to isolate the test down so many/most/all of the factors you mention re some not-swapping-squads are dealt with. The run left two of ten base forces alone, and five of ten regiments. It looks exactly like ops points look in things like port reloading. Not suggesting ops points here per se, but that's what it appears like.

ORIGINAL: Alfred

This is the relevant post from michaelm which "updates" the various posts from Andy Mac.  It is dated 8 April 2011 and can be found in the thread titled "Serious squad upgrade bug 1108k6" located in the Tech sub forum.



Please attach a save where the LCU upgrades and shows the  problem.

The pools themselves don't upgrade. Never have.
The pool of 100 x Inf 41 don't suddenly become a pool of 100 x Inf 42. They are separate pools.
Eventually you can end up with pools of obsolete devices.

When discussing this topic it's possible to quickly get tied up in definitions. You make this clear. In "visual" terms, squads upgrading are different than, say, gun tubes. It's the same men, Private Jones and Smith. On Upgrade Day the sergeant takes Private Jones' and Smith's anti-soft and anti-hard personal weapons and gives them new, better models. Same men. No men come from the pools. Just new gear (invisible gear, inherent in the new, improved anti-hard and -soft ratings.) BUT, the old gear goes back into the swirl and magically transforms into new gear, which is instantly ready to give to Privates Brown and Schmedlap over in the base force up the road at San Francisco.

This is totally different than an LCU TOE upgrade, which is in yellow when you hit the button on the unit screen. Some of the base forces that took 1942 infantry squads had an update scheduled--900+ days in the future.

Only the devices in the LCUs upgrade.

Actually, now I think of it there was a 'bug' fixed in 1108e where the wrong device was being added back to the pool upon LCU device upgrade. Instead of adding 100 old devices back, it was adding 100 of the upgraded device back to the pool.
In other words, it took 100 units of the new device out of the pool to upgrade the LCU, and them added back 100 units as the new upgraded device. So upgrading had no net effect on the upgraded device pool.

Re-examing the code, it is split into 2 parts - one for squads/eng and one for the rest.
The squad code probably should add the devices back as new ones since Japanese squads are returned to the Manpower pool rather than the device pool - the Japan production can use the MP to build new squads of the upgraded type.

This seems to me the big enchilada of risk if this gets meddled with too much. Unbalancing the sides. If a one day delay is imposed and the 80/month rate is left alone, the US LCUs will hit the shift to 1943 infantry with a lot of units still in 1942 kit. And this is nuts. The US was perfectly capable of building more than 80 squads (about 800-men's-worth) of personal, improved weapons every MONTH by mid-1942. The 80/month number is still a major governor on the process of upgrading bigger units like divisions. The Allied player has to save up at least 91 squads to do a regiment (over a month), and a similar number to do a 1/3 division in A/B/C mode.

The drawback for adding upgraded devices as new is that they are immediately available to upgrade another unit on the next turn. You wind up with a domino effect. It would be nice if these devices returning to the pool could be 'delayed' like planes can.



I won't go into the history of the "bug fixes" but what michaelm was "correcting" was moving back to the intent of Andy Mac, which is the situation outlined by Bullwinkle.  That intent had been "unbalanced" by some subsequent "bug fixes".  The key point is that immediate availability is the intent, but this intent is not always possible to ensure that the daisy wheel operates perfectly.  For example one could have 5 units set to upgrade and only the first 4 do so on the same turn because

(a) the fifth unit ran out of supply to purchase the new "devices", or

(b) somewhere else another unit which had already upgraded its TOE but was understrength got to purchase its replacements before the fifth unit, with the net result that by the time the fifth unit looked at purchasing its new devices, the pool had dipped below the requisite number

I controlled for both of these though. Every unit was at SF with hundreds of thousands of supply. None fought or moved for seven months. None took any other devices, or any replacements at all after they filled out the 1941 infantry line. No one else in the whole world was taking any replacements of any kind for those seven months. And yet the domino effect stopped. Once with two BFs left, and once with 5 of 10 regiments left.

In view of the several threads which have been opened just this week on the same topic ie LCU upgrades, it is appropriate to summarise the following points.

1.  TOE upgrades and device upgrades are separate, independent actions.

2.  A TOE upgrade occurs automatically, without any player input, when these LCU conditions are met:

(a) it is in "rest" mode
(b) it is located at a friendly base
(c) it is within 2x the command range of a Command Level HQ

3.  Device upgrades require player input and occur when:

(a) for squad/engineer devices, when a 1:1 pool ratio exists, for all other devices when the pool ratio is 1.5:1
(b) sufficient supply is available to purchase the new devices
(c) the unit has replacements turned on and the upgrade toggle is on

NB - although not mentioned ever by any developer I strongly suspect the current code status ties in the purchasing of the new upgraded devices to the normal device replacement cycle, IOW if a unit took replacements on Monday but with upgrade toggled off and on Tuesday has upgrade toggled on, it won't purchase any new devices until it is next able to check for replacements on Thursday.

4.  After purchasing the new upgraded squad/engineer devices, the superseded squad/engineer devices are converted to the upgraded standard and sent to the pool.  Superseded non squad/engineer devices are sent back to the pool in their superseded standard.

5.  The only devices in the pool which are themselves upgraded there are superseded squad/engineer devices.  They start to convert to the new standard 6 months after they were superseded.

I didn't know this. Good info that those hundreds of orphan 1941 squads in the pool aren't wasted.


Alfred

[tiemanjw]

So the TO&E upgrade has requirements on it as well... I thought that when a superseding device came online ('43 squads on 1/1/43) that the TO&E for all '42 squads automatically updated (and device replacement happens based on pools / supplies / etc). If this is the case, is there a way to see what TO&E upgrades can be had, so that I know I need to move a unit / command HQ in range to affect the upgrade? Or more generally, is there a way to see future TO&Es and when they become available for planning purposes?

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

So the TO&E upgrade has requirements on it as well... I thought that when a superseding device came online ('43 squads on 1/1/43) that the TO&E for all '42 squads automatically updated (and device replacement happens based on pools / supplies / etc). If this is the case, is there a way to see what TO&E upgrades can be had, so that I know I need to move a unit / command HQ in range to affect the upgrade? Or more generally, is there a way to see future TO&Es and when they become available for planning purposes?

Use Tracker
LCUs data set. On the LCUs Tab you can see upcoming TOE Upgrades and the Formations Tab for full details of each formation.

In game select an LCU if it has a TOE upgrade due 'This unit is composed of' will have an asterisk (*) after it. Clicking 'Show unit TOE' and then 'The TOE of this unit includes' to see what.

[tiemanjw]

Thanks... I didn't realize that the LCUs tab scrolled over that far. I still have one question though. It appears that the "updated" TO&Es change quantity and in some cases types or classes (not sure of the correct word here) of weapons, but not the simpler upgrades.
For example, take the British 2nd Division. It is listed as using the "Brit 41 ME Division" TO&E, and can upgrade in 160 days. The formations tab says that TO&E upgrades to ID #2845, which is the "Brit 43 Division". The Brit 43 TO&E has device ID 1001 (Brit Inf Section)... not device 1002 (Brit Inf Section 43) or 1000 (Brit Inf Section 44). Further, there are no further TO&E updates for the Brit 43 Division TO&E.
Does this mean that there are 2 kinds of TO&E upgrades? One where on obsolete device is upgraded (all Brit Inf Sections are replaced with the '43 version, and later the '44 version) that happens when a device is obsolete, and a second type of TO&E upgrade (The one Alfred speaks of) that adjust the internal organization of the unit.

[Alfred]

Anyone reading this thread must also read the follow up thread in the Tech sub forum.
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3604963
 
Much greater detail, hitherto not disclosed widely, is provided there by michaelm.
 
Alfred