Unexpected Held Results

[swkuh]

Uh, wonder if we play the same game? Have had two "won" positions vs. AI, albeit not played beyond mid '42, '43 with Germans handicapped by balance factors.

AFAIK, "holds" have appeared to be reasonable, so?

But, who knows? as only played for "fun."

[HermanGraf]

I have just started my first grand campaign as Axis and I have defnitely noticed results like these too. Overwhelming German #s being stymied by inferior Russian forces. However most of the time it does have something to do with Fort levels. I dont think I've been "HELD" in a HEX that didn't have a fort level, and usually the Russians are "routed" or "shattered".

[Oberst_Klink]

Just wondering lads... when did the 'issue' arise first? I got a PBEM, playing as Soviet and Riga is still holding out with an AT-Bde and an NKVD Regiment against all odds. Naturally that p*sses my opponent off and I thought it might be just him not using enough support or artillery. Then I bumped into this thread...

Klink, Oberst

[morvael]

There was a bug where strong units could go into negative values, making them weak. Dense modifier in urban terrain will cause problems for attacking armor, so taking Riga using hasty attacks by panzers is hard. Try to keep the HQ in range, so that attacking units would get better support from HQ and leader. I do agree that the system has problems with numbers vs quality (which are not reflected in CV), though.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: morvael

There was a bug where strong units could go into negative values, making them weak. Dense modifier in urban terrain will cause problems for attacking armor, so taking Riga using hasty attacks by panzers is hard. Try to keep the HQ in range, so that attacking units would get better support from HQ and leader. I do agree that the system has problems with numbers vs quality (which are not reflected in CV), though.

I do think you need to bounce that unit in the first turn. Left alone and put onto refit, it'll grow to 4 CV in the next turn and become a major problem (as it will draw supply pretty easily). Best to plan the opening turn for AGN around setting up a decent attack on it (& making sure the HQ is in range when you do attack). Of course the trade off maybe not clearing the Lithuanian coastal regions or the extent that you pocket the NW Front south of the Daugava?

[BJP III]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: morvael

There was a bug where strong units could go into negative values, making them weak. Dense modifier in urban terrain will cause problems for attacking armor, so taking Riga using hasty attacks by panzers is hard. Try to keep the HQ in range, so that attacking units would get better support from HQ and leader. I do agree that the system has problems with numbers vs quality (which are not reflected in CV), though.

I do think you need to bounce that unit in the first turn. Left alone and put onto refit, it'll grow to 4 CV in the next turn and become a major problem (as it will draw supply pretty easily). Best to plan the opening turn for AGN around setting up a decent attack on it (& making sure the HQ is in range when you do attack). Of course the trade off maybe not clearing the Lithuanian coastal regions or the extent that you pocket the NW Front south of the Daugava?

Now that the Riga Sealift is gone, I think it is actually a misallocation of resources to go hard after Riga on T1 (or afterwards, for that matter). My goal with AGN is to encircle NW Front west of the Daugava while routing as few units as possible out of the pocket. I prefer to use the Pz Divs from 41st PzK to convert as many hexes as possible, rather than having them stuck up in that swampy corner where they may or not successfully hit Riga. Plus, in order to get to Riga with enough MPs to attack, you need to attack (and potentially rout) several units which are better left alone.

By maxing out hex conversion, two good things happen. First, you make it impossible for the SU to break the pocket. Second, you can keep all your motorized and Pz units in command radius, ensuring that almost all will have 40+ MPs on T2. That allows them to approach Pskov on T2 (converting a broad front of hexes on the way) and then return back into supply range. This in turn, results in almost all the Mot and Pz units again having 40+ MPs on T3 without any need for an HQBU. I like to use 57th PzK here as well. With 3 gassed up PzKs on T3, you can annihilate any defense south of Pskov, and should be North of Pskov (hopefully isolating it) by the end of the turn. Hopefully you only need 2 PzKs for this, and then you can use the third on T4 to blaze a trail close to Leningrad. If all goes according to Hoyle, you will be across the Luga before the SU can build any decent forts, and it is game over for Leningrad.

As to Riga itself, if the SU doesn't voluntarily abandon it on T1 or T2 (that NKVD division is better used up in Leningrad, if you ask me), I just use one crappy Inf Div or Sec Div to keep an eye on the Riga garrison -- they are not going anywhere. And once Kurresare falls, Riga is easily defeated.

[DorianGray]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

If I was still a tester I would be recommending some restrictions on the massed use of sappers.

I recently played the SHC against a GHC (AI) and found it peculiar that the number of sapper SUs for the Soviet player was virtually unlimited, while playing the Germans it was quite the contrary and you had to be very careful about handling their limited supply of pioneers.

If sappers were truly as effective (and plentiful) in combat as they have been modeled in the current game system, then there would have been the formation of sapper divisions - and even possibly sapper corps - by the Soviet High Command.

[DorianGray]

ORIGINAL: Maximeba

In a perfect world what I would like to see support units that represent the function that they where design for. Example: In Europa (a game long, long ago) if an infantry unit was 1/7 armor that unit would get a plus one to a die roll, plus 3 if all armor. ...

I remember Europa and I quite liked the way it attempted to model combined arms functions. It gave good incentive to properly manage appropriate armor to infantry to AT ratios.

[gingerbread]

One difference between Europa and WitE is that in Europa, it is enough to just have the AT in the defending hex. In WitE, the guns have to fire, hit and penetrate for them to have an effect.

[Tankzen]

Regard to Riga, and what makes it a nagging issue, is that it can be used as point of resistance and even counter attack. If the city stays in supply SU has the ability to ship and maintain max units at that spot. W/ out surrounding it with 5 divisions, SU can possibly break the pocket. By the time that happens, Riga is deep behind German lines with not possible counter attack. Also, physiologically for the Wehrmacht player, if you can't take Riga (a single hex port surrounded by 5 hexes), how in the hell do you take Leningrad ( a 5 hex city extremely well defended with at least 1/2 million troops)? I understand the reasoning behind cutting it off and leaving it, I just drives me crazy knowing it's there.