Turnaround? Lowpe (J) vs Tiemanj (A) Stock

[Lowpe]

Nov 7th, 1942

Heavy 4E raids in Burma that target the airfield at Pegu, and the ground forces in Magwe and Mandalay.

4E Raid on Lunga in the Solomons escorted by Lightnings...unfortunately fighter coverage was centralized at Rabaul. Missed a chance to fight Lightnings on equal grounds.

In China, Chihkiang 5 Chinese Corp shock attack the 6th Division behind Level 3 Forts. No Japanese are lost and the Chinese suffer 70 destroyed infantry squads. Close by, the 2nd Chinese Corp is mauled by the 68th Division for another 61 destroyed squads. No losses suffered by the IJA.[:)]

Off Karachi, Iboats torpedo 3 different tankers, for heavy damage, another for on fire and heavy damage, and the final simply one torpedo hit. Maybe the tanker on fire will succumb, but they have a long way to go unless they head back to Karachi.

Flak doing a little better, especially now all the AA units are full strength with big guns.

[Lowpe]

This ship has shown up on the sunk ship page. If you remember, she was mauled by the Kirishima as part of a large troop convoy headed towards Java...or perhaps invading Cocos or Xmas Island 10. Definitely up to no good.

The Kirishima then got sunk by the POW, which kind of stung, especially since the day previously three torpedoes hit the POW and failed to detonate.

However, this loss, along with a 100 point lcu victory point climb helps take a little sting away from Kirishima's loss.

[Lowpe]

Steady progress in China...IJA has suffered no real losses in this theater since the takeover in late July while the Chinese have suffered mighty losses in destroyed squads, and supply & resource production.

My goal of isolating the Changsha Industrial Triangle is moving ahead without a hitch. I need to get some Tojo's up here to take care of the AVG and Lancers, so until then I am only bombing where Allied fighters can't be. However, moving fighters here is pretty far down on my list of priorities.

[Lokasenna]

The AVG is still around? They're supposed to withdraw in July...

[Lowpe]

H81's on LRCAP:

[Lokasenna]

Ah, but they aren't the actual AVG airgroups. The airframes would still be available, of course, as the AVG withdraws to pools. Could be the pilots, too, as those get sent to pools with the planes.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Ah, but they aren't the actual AVG airgroups. The airframes would still be available, of course, as the AVG withdraws to pools. Could be the pilots, too, as those get sent to pools with the planes.

Aren't the AVG classed as American units though?

The H81's can be used by the Chinese Air Force, but I'm fairly sure the pilots can only transfer into American units.

[Lowpe]

I have a Babs factory that will be switched out soon, and I am pondering into what direction it will go.

I currently have no production of single engine bombers: Ida, Ann, Mary, Sonia. It costs PP to move those squadrons to twin engine use or fighter bombers (which are ridiculously expensive).

Ida: worthless, except I have 370 engines, trainer only.

Ann: best, few engines, no engine factory

Mary: 80 engines, range 1 less than Ann, no engine factory

Sonia: small multiple bombs, short range, Camera, existing engine factory 120 in pool

I am somewhat intrigued by the Sonia because of the Camera. Does it raise detection level on normal bomb runs thus enhancing other bomber attacks?

Or am I better off just using all the 1E bombers as trainers and not making anymore of them and instead go r and d for a late war fighter.

I have pressed some Anns into ASW work, and use the Sonia in China, so they do see some actual work.

[mind_messing]

Or am I better off just using all the 1E bombers as trainers and not making anymore of them and instead go r and d for a late war fighter.

Probably the latter.

The JAAF 1E bombers are only really useful under certain circumstances, and the IJA 2E bombers do everything better (range, payload, ASW). If you've got the airframes, use them, by all means, but I wouldn't build any more of them.

Beyond China and perhaps Burma I can't see any real suitable theaters for the short-legged JAAF 1E's. Perhaps ASW duties, but they've too short a range to be really effective at this role.

IIRC the camera device exist to enable IJA bombers to conduct recon missions. It also allows a dice roll to determine an additional increase in DL following a recon mission.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

IIRC the camera device exist to enable IJA bombers to conduct recon missions. It also allows a dice roll to determine an additional increase in DL following a recon mission.

All bombers can do recon, but if the camera would act as a multiplier raising the effectiveness of other bombers then it might be worthwhile in limited applications. Sonia's legs are so short, though, it is a painful plane to use.

I have 36 in Nagasaki doing ASW, but I think they will either convert to full training or if I have the patience to move them bomb the Americans in the Kuriles and see what happens to the detection levels and the effectiveness of my other bombers there which has been disappointing to say the least. Winter. Ugh.

[witpqs]

The camera makes a huge difference to recon missions.

[Lowpe]

Nov 8, 1942

Quiet day, except for 4e bombing in burma focused on troops. Many damaged bombers for a total of 1 support squad and 1 gun destroyed. 3 Allied planes lost total versus 2 for Japan.

Normal bombardments today, and a deliberate attack - the first- will go in at Batavia maybe tomorrow (all the troops are there but two tank units). 3400 IJA AV versus 600 Allied AV. Maybe I can squeak by with a 1-1 but I doubt it. Forts are probably 6 and the terrain is nasty.

Batavia has been bombarded for about 7 days now, and it has knocked down Allied AV by 80 points. Perhaps I should just keep bombarding for another week or two before launching my first deliberate attack...The other option is to deliberate attack, bombard with ART for three to four days while the Infantry recovers, and then deliberate attack again, until the base falls. Not really sure which would be faster.

I have brought some light cruisers in to bombard the city to prevent the forts from rebuilding.

I am half way to having the PP for a Division which I could use on Port Moresby or China, or I could buy out 5 ART units now, and get them over to Rangoon to be able to bombard that city daily or to China. However, if Batavia can fall relatively quickly, then I can start to move some more units from Java to Rangoon. Decisions.

[Spidery]

The Ann and Sonia have an SR of 1 so can maintain a higher rate of operations out of small airfields in China.

I don't know if it works, but are the Sonia's 4x50Kg bombs almost as likely to get a hit as 4x250kg bombs from a 2E and will that hit have just as much effect in forcing a unit out of move mode?

The Sonia has a very short transfer range.

[Lowpe]

I divided the Sonia up into thirds, sent all the good pilots to the reserve, and sent two off to China and one to the Kuriles to see how well they do as recon planes, and to experiment if the detection gets raised even if they bomb.

Perhaps I will have a decent use for up to 2 squadrons of Sonia.

Decided to bombard in Batavia for another day...

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Ah, but they aren't the actual AVG airgroups. The airframes would still be available, of course, as the AVG withdraws to pools. Could be the pilots, too, as those get sent to pools with the planes.

Aren't the AVG classed as American units though?

The H81's can be used by the Chinese Air Force, but I'm fairly sure the pilots can only transfer into American units.

Looks like American group names to me in the combat replay.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I have a Babs factory that will be switched out soon, and I am pondering into what direction it will go.

I currently have no production of single engine bombers: Ida, Ann, Mary, Sonia. It costs PP to move those squadrons to twin engine use or fighter bombers (which are ridiculously expensive).

Ida: worthless, except I have 370 engines, trainer only.

Ann: best, few engines, no engine factory

Mary: 80 engines, range 1 less than Ann, no engine factory

Sonia: small multiple bombs, short range, Camera, existing engine factory 120 in pool

I am somewhat intrigued by the Sonia because of the Camera. Does it raise detection level on normal bomb runs thus enhancing other bomber attacks?

Or am I better off just using all the 1E bombers as trainers and not making anymore of them and instead go r and d for a late war fighter.

I have pressed some Anns into ASW work, and use the Sonia in China, so they do see some actual work.

If you are going to use these planes on ASW, you should use them on Search in my opinion. They don't have the bomb load to sink any subs. Better to use them for suppression via DL rather than killing.

FWIW, I don't produce any 1E bombers at all. I concentrate my IJAAF bomber production on the Ki-21-Ic Sally until the Helen-IIa becomes available. Then I produce that one. After that... Don't know yet. The Helen-II lasts a while. The Peggy is available later, and I'll probably switch, but perhaps not completely. I may not need an upgrade in China, for example.

You can use these planes for Recon missions, as usual, however they aren't Recon-type planes so they won't be very effective at raising the DL. There was a discussion about cameras a few weeks ago and Alfred posted a link to an old thread. In that old thread, it says that cameras are basically a chance to raise the DL by some value related to the effect value of the camera (I think up to +4 DL). Obviously, you still need air crews skilled in Recon for this use to be most effective. I would consider using the Sonia in this role, but probably no others, and only as an auxiliary measure as the Sonia doesn't have much range and you have plenty of other Recon groups if you split them into 3's.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Ah, but they aren't the actual AVG airgroups. The airframes would still be available, of course, as the AVG withdraws to pools. Could be the pilots, too, as those get sent to pools with the planes.

Aren't the AVG classed as American units though?

The H81's can be used by the Chinese Air Force, but I'm fairly sure the pilots can only transfer into American units.

Looks like American group names to me in the combat replay.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I have a Babs factory that will be switched out soon, and I am pondering into what direction it will go.

I currently have no production of single engine bombers: Ida, Ann, Mary, Sonia. It costs PP to move those squadrons to twin engine use or fighter bombers (which are ridiculously expensive).

Ida: worthless, except I have 370 engines, trainer only.

Ann: best, few engines, no engine factory

Mary: 80 engines, range 1 less than Ann, no engine factory

Sonia: small multiple bombs, short range, Camera, existing engine factory 120 in pool

I am somewhat intrigued by the Sonia because of the Camera. Does it raise detection level on normal bomb runs thus enhancing other bomber attacks?

Or am I better off just using all the 1E bombers as trainers and not making anymore of them and instead go r and d for a late war fighter.

I have pressed some Anns into ASW work, and use the Sonia in China, so they do see some actual work.

If you are going to use these planes on ASW, you should use them on Search in my opinion. They don't have the bomb load to sink any subs. Better to use them for suppression via DL rather than killing.

FWIW, I don't produce any 1E bombers at all. I concentrate my IJAAF bomber production on the Ki-21-Ic Sally until the Helen-IIa becomes available. Then I produce that one. After that... Don't know yet. The Helen-II lasts a while. The Peggy is available later, and I'll probably switch, but perhaps not completely. I may not need an upgrade in China, for example.

You can use these planes for Recon missions, as usual, however they aren't Recon-type planes so they won't be very effective at raising the DL. There was a discussion about cameras a few weeks ago and Alfred posted a link to an old thread. In that old thread, it says that cameras are basically a chance to raise the DL by some value related to the effect value of the camera (I think up to +4 DL). Obviously, you still need air crews skilled in Recon for this use to be most effective. I would consider using the Sonia in this role, but probably no others, and only as an auxiliary measure as the Sonia doesn't have much range and you have plenty of other Recon groups if you split them into 3's.

Looks like American group names to me in the combat replay.

They're marked as CAF groups in the replay.

Chinese Air Force

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You can use these planes for Recon missions, as usual, however they aren't Recon-type planes so they won't be very effective at raising the DL. There was a discussion about cameras a few weeks ago and Alfred posted a link to an old thread. In that old thread, it says that cameras are basically a chance to raise the DL by some value related to the effect value of the camera (I think up to +4 DL). Obviously, you still need air crews skilled in Recon for this use to be most effective. I would consider using the Sonia in this role, but probably no others, and only as an auxiliary measure as the Sonia doesn't have much range and you have plenty of other Recon groups if you split them into 3's.

I have a tough time maxing detection levels, so the Sonia's are going to go help, plus I get to experiment with their usage. It would be nice if the cameras worked on regular bombing runs, but I don't think they will.

Previously, they were set on 40/40/20 ASW/Train/Rest to build up pilots for Lilly ASW squadrons. I had no ASW pilots when I took over. I agree that their Naval Search would be better use for them in an ASW role.

Do you convert all your 1e groups over to 2e bombers or do you use them as training platforms? Combination?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Looks like American group names to me in the combat replay.

They're marked as CAF groups in the replay.

Chinese Air Force

Herp? I probably herped.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You can use these planes for Recon missions, as usual, however they aren't Recon-type planes so they won't be very effective at raising the DL. There was a discussion about cameras a few weeks ago and Alfred posted a link to an old thread. In that old thread, it says that cameras are basically a chance to raise the DL by some value related to the effect value of the camera (I think up to +4 DL). Obviously, you still need air crews skilled in Recon for this use to be most effective. I would consider using the Sonia in this role, but probably no others, and only as an auxiliary measure as the Sonia doesn't have much range and you have plenty of other Recon groups if you split them into 3's.

I have a tough time maxing detection levels, so the Sonia's are going to go help, plus I get to experiment with their usage. It would be nice if the cameras worked on regular bombing runs, but I don't think they will.

Previously, they were set on 40/40/20 ASW/Train/Rest to build up pilots for Lilly ASW squadrons. I had no ASW pilots when I took over. I agree that their Naval Search would be better use for them in an ASW role.

Do you convert all your 1e groups over to 2e bombers or do you use them as training platforms? Combination?

Sonias on Recon can definitely help your DLs.

I convert all my 1E groups to 2Es as the Lily and Sally airframes become available from upgrading Sally units to Helens. Here's what I do once I have 30+ Helens in the pool:

1) Any Lily units on the front lines? Upgrade those as they only carry 4x100kg bombs. If NO, proceed:
2) Any Sally-Ic units on the front?
2a) Any Sally-IIa units on the front? If NO, proceed:
3) Free for use anywhere

With a Sally pool, I check for Lily units first and then Sonia/Ann/Ida/Mary units. With a Lily pool, I look strictly at 1E units to upgrade. By August 1942, I have all my 1E units swapped out to 2Es except for a very few in Manchukuo. I transfer as many bombers as possible to China, where they can get real combat training for free and skill up faster than if on simple 100% non-combat training.


I misspoke in my earlier post. I meant that I produce the Sally-Ic until out of Ha-5 engines (IIRC that's what it uses) and then the Sally-IIa only until the Helen-II is online.

[Lokasenna]

Here are my IJAAF numbers on 8/15/42.

# of planes / max group size - mission

Ann
27 / 27 - will upgrade soon. Was on Luzon, now elsewhere.
35 / 36 - Training
5 / 12 - will upgrade soon.

Mary
9 / 9 - Training

Ida
12 / 12 - Training
27 / 27 - Training

Sonia
14 / 36 - Training/minor work in China
12 / 12 - Training
9 / 9 - Training

Lily
9 / 27 - Training
27 / 27 - Training

(Operation airgroups below. Current plane status redacted for slight op sec!)

Helen IIa
5x27 Sentai - Combat
1x31 Sentai - Combat
1x18 Sentai - Combat
1x12 Sentai - Combat

Sally IIa
2x36 Sentai - Combat
3x31 Sentai - Combat
5x27 Sentai - Combat
1x27 Sentai - Training (HI restricted, arrived as Sally IIa)
1x24 Sentai - Combat
3x12 Sentai - Combat
1x12 Sentai - Training

Sally Ic
2x27 Sentai - Combat
2x27 Sentai - Training (restricted, arrived as Sally Ic)


I will eventually buy out the Sally training units and use them in combat training in Asia, I think. Same with the 2 Ann units that need upgrading. That will leave me with only a few 1E units left for some backup training.

I am using IJN units for ASW, though later in the war I will need more of them and less ground bombing so will transition some units to ASW. I skipped the Helen-I entirely, so no MAD in the IJAAF for me.



Edited to include screenshot. As you can see, I'm only producing the Helen IIa. You can also see that my losses up to 8/15/42 haven't been terrible - averaging just under 2 bombers per turn, most of that front-loaded in the DEI/SRA. You can also see that I'm researching the Peggy-T and Tsurugi.

I have the luxury of playing with PDU On, so don't need to build anything else. This means that pretty much all of my build need will be filled with Helens. I'm including all of this info in case it is of use to you as a reference point... Just keep in mind that our games could be wildly different and I could be totally wrong [:)].

[Lowpe]

Thanks, I do find it of interest.[:)]

My bomber losses are more than 3x yours! However, since I have taken over they aren't nearly as bad. I am losing .1 HelenIIa a turn for example, and that plane didn't exist prior to my reign of course the nature of battle has changed somewhat too.

I have 49 planes in my pools mostly Helens (1 and II) and a few Ann & Sonia. I have a tremendous number of understaffed bomber units.

I am making more HelenIIa than you...

I am also researching the Peggy T, but only with one size 30 factory...didn't want to put anymore into it, since I was concerned about training, and to a degree, rightly or wrongly, I am relying upon Lilly IIb to be a anti-ship Army plane for me.

I still have a few odds and end r and d here I have never changed from takeover. Mainly, because I didn't want to spend any supply.