Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

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Spidery
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Spidery »

Moving to 1.7.11.23x7 Beta.

November 3rd 1942

Air Losses: 13 Japanese, 7 Allied, 3 Pilots
Japanese occupy: Tsuyung
Allies occupy:
Japanese land at:
Allies land at:

Pacific

Lightnings sweep Rabaul, 9 Ki-43-IIb and 4 Ki-44-IIa lost to 3 P-38E (not even the best model!). Rabaul CAP was reduced because some fighters were covering the transit of 3 BB through the Torres Strait. They are now available to defend the South Pacific.

Burma

Quiet

China

Tsuyung falls[8D]:
Ground combat at Tsuyung (68,46)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 18233 troops, 379 guns, 467 vehicles, Assault Value = 915

Defending force 13329 troops, 121 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 135

Japanese adjusted assault: 405

Allied adjusted defense: 199

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Tsuyung !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
168 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 10 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 5 (1 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Vehicles lost 12 (2 destroyed, 10 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
6220 casualties reported
Squads: 65 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 429 destroyed, 21 disabled
Engineers: 61 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 34 (34 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 1
Units destroyed 1

Now have to push down the minor road, hope the road blocks aren't too bad. Unfortunately, probably see some enemy air action.

At Chungking now have a raw 2::1 AV value. Could attack now but 4 divisions are approaching and will arrive in three days:
Ground combat at Chungking (76,45)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9435 troops, 664 guns, 615 vehicles, Assault Value = 3791

Defending force 174150 troops, 579 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1883

Allied ground losses:
634 casualties reported
Squads: 87 destroyed, 22 disabled
Non Combat: 6 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Try an attack by the tanks in the mountains:
Ground combat at 70,45 (near Kunming)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 12403 troops, 226 guns, 837 vehicles, Assault Value = 569

Defending force 13929 troops, 120 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 433

Japanese adjusted assault: 502

Allied adjusted defense: 1228

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+)
Attacker: leaders(+), supply(-)

Japanese ground losses:
752 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 37 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 19 disabled
Vehicles lost 43 (1 destroyed, 42 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
472 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 50 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Why isn't that a 1::3 result? Won't take too long to recover but having some supply problems. Niekiang and Chungking are becoming big supply soaks and 40,000 supply is sitting on the docks at Hankow.

In the mountains near Chengtu a single infantry group needs to hold for 2 days against the out of supply Chinese to hold the encirclement.

Australia

The fast transport goes off without fault but fails to deliver supply to the AA unit[:(] (wish I had been doing this earlier). The Allied bombing is horrendous as a result[:@]. Will try again. Also moving some of the Kiso PB to try that.

Engineering

Lots of Allied expansions, Tassafaronga, Fenton, Chittagong port, etc.

R&D

Quiet

Other

Two turns in a row have failed to get fuel to run the HI at Kunming. Can't see anything I can do to encourage this. There is a 96 point supply route from Magwe so might be able to get some from there.

Zuihaku and Hiryu are both now at Singapore under repair. Hiryu has 13 days to complete repair and refit. Zuihaku has 89 days to fix in the shipyard but I am expanding the yard by 2 points so I can set it on High priority and trim some days from that.
Spidery
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Spidery »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

What is that...one less than full strength unit?

Thanks for posting, very interesting.

Two major understrength, I think there is a Lily group 1 or 2 under strength but otherwise everything up to strength. Most groups have some reserves (I run with manual replacements and take them when all the reserves have been used and have dropped below full strength and then get a full load of reserves.)
Spidery
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Spidery »

November 4th 1942

Air Losses: 17 Japanese, 6 Allied, 4 Pilots
Japanese occupy:
Allies occupy:
Japanese land at:
Allies land at:

Pacific

Quiet

Burma

Quiet

China

Quiet.

At Chungking the 39th Chinese Corps and the 8th Chinese Base Force have returned as zombie units. It is academic but I thought only infantry units were supposed to auto-resurrect?

Australia

Fast transport again runs more supply in and another heavy bombardment. At the end of turn there is 2 supply at Darwin and none in the AA units.

Lightnings sweep Saumlaki and slaughter the Nicks there[:(].

Engineering

Niekiang to 4.

R&D

Quiet

Other

The weekly fuel run delivers fuel to Kunming but it is only enough for 5 days production so looks like I am going to be losing 2 in 7 days of production.
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Lokasenna
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Spidery

November 4th 1942

Air Losses: 17 Japanese, 6 Allied, 4 Pilots
Japanese occupy:
Allies occupy:
Japanese land at:
Allies land at:

Pacific

Quiet

Burma

Quiet

China

Quiet.

At Chungking the 39th Chinese Corps and the 8th Chinese Base Force have returned as zombie units. It is academic but I thought only infantry units were supposed to auto-resurrect?

Australia

Fast transport again runs more supply in and another heavy bombardment. At the end of turn there is 2 supply at Darwin and none in the AA units.

Lightnings sweep Saumlaki and slaughter the Nicks there[:(].

Engineering

Niekiang to 4.

R&D

Quiet

Other

The weekly fuel run delivers fuel to Kunming but it is only enough for 5 days production so looks like I am going to be losing 2 in 7 days of production.

I think it's that only the squad-type devices come in at 1/3. The units still resurrect, but without any armaments - squads only at 1/3 of TOE. So the Base Force should only have things that are classified as squads.
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by FeurerKrieg »

At Chungking the 39th Chinese Corps and the 8th Chinese Base Force have returned as zombie units. It is academic but I thought only infantry units were supposed to auto-resurrect?

I believe I read a discussion of this, maybe in the beta patch thread? I think it is based on device type. I don't know about the Chinese BF units, but if it is like the Japanese where there are 9 squads of infantry, they could come back with just the infantry squads and none of the other devices.
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by FeurerKrieg »

Aww, Lokasenna beat me.

Also, I'm not sure if if it is 1/3. I thought there was some randomness to it.
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Erkki
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Erkki »

On the problem of P-38s... Do you have altitude rules? At what altitude do you fly your CAPs, are they layered? Maybe we can figure out a trick or two that you could try.
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Lowpe
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: Erkki

On the problem of P-38s... Do you have altitude rules? At what altitude do you fly your CAPs, are they layered? Maybe we can figure out a trick or two that you could try.
The only trick I know is not to fly or fly in huge numbers with multiple radar sets from AA rgts.

Obvious: hit the lightning base, not always doable.

Nicks are supposed to do okay at 10,000 feet versus Lightnings. If you were flying much higher, it takes to long for the CAP to assemble and you are always outnumbered.

Take heart! I just lost 7 to P39s and another 3 Nicks to op losses for a total of 10 while shooting down only 3 P39s. See, it could be worse![:D]
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Erkki
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Erkki »

P-38 is a difficult opponent because its so fast and they're probably always flown by the best of the best of USAAF fighter pilots.

They're a lot faster than anything you got so your higher MVR ratings mean little - the speed gap is so large that your MVR ratings get halved(I think) within the algorithms most of the time so if you fight say with Ki-44 against P-38G at 25,000 ft you have 14 vs. 8 - and that 8 is yours!! Plus of course their armor, higher durability and guns.

You could try these:

-fly lower, even near the deck: P-38s dont lose much MVR up high(depends on your possible altitude rules) and scrambled fighters joining later are much more likely to get above them if the battle is low. If you keep fighting high the scrambling fighters are less likely to get to join the battle higher than them even if their scrambling altitude is there
-numbers: only fly CAP where you're unlikely to meet them or dont expect them or where you can outnumber them easily
-radar, preferably multiple sets: helps with getting more numbers and more planes above the enemy sooner, you only need one good surprise bounce by a good pilot for a kill
-layered CAP: high MVR and/or less valuable planes low to draw the enemy lower where other fighters + those that scrambled can bounce them, have the best pilots up high
-range 0 to prevent leaking CAP and being defeated in detail
-check and replace if needed the air group leaders

Also if you know their bases you may be able to play against their range and have more fields out of their range to support with LRCAP the one you figure he will hit next to get more numbers. Probably not possible in Northern Australia though, unless you decide to use CVEs. You should have some that dont have integral air groups, Taiyo & CO. Remember that Allies still dont get many P-38s so every loss hurts, doubly so because they're likely to have very good pilots with lots of kills and high Air and EXP by now.

I saw your air production numbers and you seem to be building only few fighters. The air losses in general seem kinda low. The Allies are probably collecting the fruits of their force preservation measures of early and mid 42.


edit: fixed typos
edit2: Yeah flying low you give the initial bounce to the enemy, but if you're losing badly any way you should try to sacrifice some fighters to at least get to shoot at the enemy every now and then. I bet planes like Ki-43-I and II will do better getting bounced at the deck than they'd do at 25-30 kft any way. [:)]
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Lowpe
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Lowpe »

Do you think it might be worthwhile using Tracom pilots in a special unit?

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Erkki
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Erkki »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Do you think it might be worthwhile using Tracom pilots in a special unit?


If he has a reserve of fighter aces... Dunno, I'd spare them until theres better fighters available. They can get killed quick in those paper kites. Maybe for a defence-only Ki-44-IIc or Ki-61 unit in radar-equipped bases?
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Lokasenna
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

Aww, Lokasenna beat me.

Also, I'm not sure if if it is 1/3. I thought there was some randomness to it.

Michael removed the (undocumented) randomness a few patches back.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
ORIGINAL: Erkki

On the problem of P-38s... Do you have altitude rules? At what altitude do you fly your CAPs, are they layered? Maybe we can figure out a trick or two that you could try.
The only trick I know is not to fly or fly in huge numbers with multiple radar sets from AA rgts.

Obvious: hit the lightning base, not always doable.

Nicks are supposed to do okay at 10,000 feet versus Lightnings. If you were flying much higher, it takes to long for the CAP to assemble and you are always outnumbered.

Take heart! I just lost 7 to P39s and another 3 Nicks to op losses for a total of 10 while shooting down only 3 P39s. See, it could be worse![:D]

It's not really just Nicks. Nicks are just the first thing that works because they have armor and cannons. Bringing the P-38s down to your maneuver level is a good thing. Don't fight them up high - you won't succeed. Get them down to 10 or 15k where they're stuck at 17 maneuver and yours is in the mid-20s or better.

RE: using Tracom veterans against the P-38s - I would only do this over your own base, and not in anything less durable than a Nick. So no Tojos, no Zeroes, no Oscars, no Tonys... Nicks, Jacks, Georges, Franks, maybe Ki-100, etc. But that's just what I would do.
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Lowpe
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Lowpe »

I agree with the Tracom pilots...they have much more important work to do down the road, meanwhile they can save some HI and give a shot in the arm to the training program.





Spidery
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Spidery »

Thanks guys for the discussion and advice.

On Chinese replacements, I understand that with the latest Betas infantry squads come back at 1/3 strength. This seems to cover support, infantry, and mg squads. It is also possible that other devices come back at 5% strength but only by drawing from pools. I'm pretty sure he doesn't get free guns which is all that would really matter.

On Lightnings, my CAP would be variously be between 10000 and 15000 feet. As long as I have about 80-100 aircraft on CAP with pilots with 65+ defense, 70+ air skill they do reasonably well, almost regardless of what aircraft is involved. This because it leaves enough aircraft around to keep the number advantage after the first surprise. The number advantage then retains throughout the fight. With fewer aircraft he gets the upper hand and, eventually, the defenders are being swamped as they arrive in the battle and drop like flies.

However, I need to keep sufficient CAP in some places to deter bombers and, sometimes, that results in them being swamped.

I had thought places such as Chengtu and Rabaul would be reasonably secure because he would need to fly at extended range with drop tanks so should suffer more from ops losses amongst damaged aircraft. However, that hasn't worked out and he must now be getting the P-38G with even longer reach.

The Ki-44-IIc is just being produced and I hope that will prove a bit better.

No altitude rules, only HR is not to change the Glens on the subs.

MrKane mentioned that he has a triple Ace amongst his Lightning pilots so yes I imagine they are the best of the best.

Navy TRACOM pilots will be retained until I can field the N1K1-J or need them to fill in the carrier fighter groups after a battle. Army TRACOM pilots will be retained until I get the Ki-84a (but I need to check as I think some of them have experience but are lacking in defensive skill).

Cheers.
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Spidery »

By "reasonably well" against the Lightnings I mean something in the region of 2::1 losses in the Allied favour.

Any time I trade aircraft at better than 2::1 (and don't lose pilots) that is making it harder for the Allies to achieve victory in 1945. (4::1 against 4E bombers.)
njp72
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by njp72 »

In my limited experience, it seems to come down to sheer numbers as the best defence.

In my PBEM games, I find I can overwhelm the Lightning sweeps through hordes of Oscars and zeros. Radar makes a huge difference as well.

As they say quantity has a quality all of its own. :-)
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GreyJoy
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by GreyJoy »

I am sorry to disagree. Personally, I found the whole thing about TRACOM a waste of good pilots.
A 80+exp pilot will have much more chances to fight and live another day.
I use my aces. use them all. Always. In the best possible plane available, mind you, but I do use them.
The best way to train pilots is ON MAP, not in the training school. I really much prefer to fill my training units with <20 exp rookies than with 40 exp ones (they train much faster!).
By the end of 1943 usually my training schools are empty (especially the navy one) and I directly take the new pilots from towns and villages[:D]

Matter of play style I guess.
Spidery
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Spidery »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

I am sorry to disagree. Personally, I found the whole thing about TRACOM a waste of good pilots.
A 80+exp pilot will have much more chances to fight and live another day.
I use my aces. use them all. Always. In the best possible plane available, mind you, but I do use them.
The best way to train pilots is ON MAP, not in the training school. I really much prefer to fill my training units with <20 exp rookies than with 40 exp ones (they train much faster!).
By the end of 1943 usually my training schools are empty (especially the navy one) and I directly take the new pilots from towns and villages[:D]

Matter of play style I guess.

I haven't got the hang of pilots and pilot training, so may be doing it all wrong.

If I fill up groups with high experience pilots then that leaves nowhere for mid-experience pilots to get some experience.

For the Navy it seems there are a lot of reinforcement groups and it will be useful for some pilots to be held back to fill these when they arrive. It seems marginally more useful to hold back pilots in TRACOM than in reserve.

For the Army it doesn't seem so much use to hold back pilots as there is more opportunity for rear area experience, more groups on training, and fewer reinforcements.

Somewhere, like Magwe, that I need to keep planes on CAP but he hasn't attacked for weeks it seems worthwhile keeping pilots in the 50-65 experience level that gain experience rather than the 75+ level that don't seem to get much better.

I suspect it is also a matter of the aggressiveness of players. Neither of us are being particularly aggressive and under those circumstances flying top-notch pilots seems a bit of waste.

It does seem the idea that pilots in TRACOM save HI is a bit false. They advance a few pilots through training faster saving a little HI. However, if they were in combat they would save a few aircraft that probably amounts to more HI saved.
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Erkki
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Erkki »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

I am sorry to disagree. Personally, I found the whole thing about TRACOM a waste of good pilots.
A 80+exp pilot will have much more chances to fight and live another day.
I use my aces. use them all. Always. In the best possible plane available, mind you, but I do use them.
The best way to train pilots is ON MAP, not in the training school. I really much prefer to fill my training units with <20 exp rookies than with 40 exp ones (they train much faster!).
By the end of 1943 usually my training schools are empty (especially the navy one) and I directly take the new pilots from towns and villages[:D]

Matter of play style I guess.

I'd say the minor HI savings are just a bonus... I send some of the best pilots, not necessarily 80+ exp ones, to reserve just because I dont want to lose them early. Small mistake or bad luck and they can be KIA or MIA in fragile planes over enemy territory while escorting bombers or sweeping fragmented and running into a CAP trap. For bombers' ablative armor or for dying in Ki-27s early on EXP 50 pilots will have to do.

To use them or not is important decision. Such as with the CV air groups... CV battle results can depend on just a few strike planes more getting through or shot down so you'd want your best air crew aboard the ships. But if they're aboard the CVs they wont be seeing much action and cant make the difference elsewhere.
Spidery
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RE: Castles in the Sand - Spidery(J) vs MrKane(A) no MrKane please

Post by Spidery »

A couple of strategic questions.

Is it worth pulling back most of the forces in the Aleutians during the winter? Is there actually any value in holding the Islands through 1943.

In building the defenses for the Marianas, I have engineers working at Guam, Rota, Tinian, Saipan and Pagan and plan to send some more garrisons. Is it also worthwhile garrisoning, and developing, the three dot bases near Pagan. They all have a 0 port but have 1 or 2 airfield base size.
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