proper care and feeding of IJN CS and AVs, etc

[pontiouspilot]

In one of my PBEM games I am still fairly early on in my 1st game as Japan. I am very comfortable with Allied use of AV/APV etc. I am really wondering about the Japanese equivalent. It seems that at least some are well enough suited to naval attack, at least against early opponents. Does anybody have some ideas or comparisons/differences I should know about?? Also it seems like I have way more ships than float planes….this normal or my screw-up??

[Czert]

You want to do naval atack from yours CS/AVs with jakes (pete and rest is realy weak), upgrade to them as fast as you can - somewhere i readed that recomended production for them is around 80 a/c monts - cca 2,5 planes per day - this is to cover daily losses and upgdes, and since i use them a lot, sometimes it not enough.
But beware if you use them as combat planes - against uprotected merchant navy - they will have higher losses than normal naval search/asw routine.
They can be even used to acack light warships - corvetes, patrol crafts..etc , even tin cans, but that is maximum they can damage/sunk due to thier small bombs.
And if they encouter any oposition from CAp - they are toast and you have nice amount of swimers.
It realy depend on your situation - did they play intended role in this merchant marine hunters (and dont forget you have realy limited amount of combat ops you can fly from these CS/AV) or they will be more usefull as eyes fro your CVs fleets conserving thier planes for naval stike instead of leting them to scout.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

CS/ AVs don't have offensive capabilities early war. Use them for sav search and ASW... I have pushed their use as last resourt CAP platforms; usually with poor results, or nothing other than reducing bomber accuracy.
Notice that naval search is inherently part of naval attack; as you can only attack what you spot. My advice will be to use FPs for the nav search so you can devote better platforms (Kates, Vals, Betty, Nells) to do the actual killing


If float plane zeros were available on Dec-41, then they could argueably be more interesting as a CAP platform, as you could make any dot base a fighter base.
However, problem is by the time FP zeros are coming online; you should have already conquered the SRA and have plenty of airbase were "real" fighters can operate; so then their offensive needs is even less marked

[Lokasenna]

Even Petes or Jakes on CAP can drive off those pesky Seagulls and Kingfishers that like to drop bombs on your unloading xAKs... I lost at least a half dozen ships to float planes. If I'd known they were such a danger (2x 250-lb laser guided bombs, apparently) I would have tried to have AVs standing offshore to provide a half dozen planes of CAP.

I grabbed some Rufe (the float Zero) units, but haven't used any in combat yet. Not sure I ever will. Too bad.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

If you are talking CAP, Pete is certainly the FP to use; it has good maneuverability rating and 3 MGs... it still won't shoot down anything but the reduced accuracy is good

Ruffe comes to late; and it is too slow.. I think it might work very well against anything that is slow

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

If you are talking CAP, Pete is certainly the FP to use; it has good maneuverability rating and 3 MGs... it still won't shoot down anything but the reduced accuracy is good

Ruffe comes to late; and it is too slow.. I think it might work very well against anything that is slow

I think if you're going to be using floatplanes on CAP, the Rufe is the way to go. Sure, they'll not stand up in direct combat with the likes of the Wildcats, but you don't need a first-class fighter to shoot down torpedo or dive bombers.

If you use the two big CS's with nothing but Rufe's on them (though not sure why you would), that's nearly 50 fighters - more or less a CarDiv's worth.

That sparks of some interesting thoughts of using them as ersatz carrier cover for convoys near the frontlines.

In a more conventional line, Rufe CS's could give the Mini-KB a bit extra protection. Fifty extra Rufe's on Low-Alt CAP over the Mini-KB would free up the Zero's for highter duties or for escorts.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

If you are talking CAP, Pete is certainly the FP to use; it has good maneuverability rating and 3 MGs... it still won't shoot down anything but the reduced accuracy is good

Ruffe comes to late; and it is too slow.. I think it might work very well against anything that is slow

I think if you're going to be using floatplanes on CAP, the Rufe is the way to go. Sure, they'll not stand up in direct combat with the likes of the Wildcats, but you don't need a first-class fighter to shoot down torpedo or dive bombers.

If you use the two big CS's with nothing but Rufe's on them (though not sure why you would), that's nearly 50 fighters - more or less a CarDiv's worth.

That sparks of some interesting thoughts of using them as ersatz carrier cover for convoys near the frontlines.

In a more conventional line, Rufe CS's could give the Mini-KB a bit extra protection. Fifty extra Rufe's on Low-Alt CAP over the Mini-KB would free up the Zero's for highter duties or for escorts.

It would be a shame to waste the higher-speed Chitose and Chiyoda on the 21-knot CVEs, IMO. The Mizuhos are only 20-capacity each.

I'm still mulling what I'm going to do with my remaining 3 CS hulls in my Japan game. I lost the MKB, but I have the Junyos now... On the other other hand, the CS's have been mostly sitting in port for the last 4-5 months so 6 months to convert to CVL is kind of the same thing. At this point, I'm leaning conversion for at least the Chitose/Chiyoda and maybe keeping the Mizuho for search and FP resizing.


Really, for disrupting slow attackers like USN float planes or torpedo bombers, any CAP at all will do. You just need to set them to the right altitude (around 5k, maybe down to 3k).

[Jorge_Stanbury]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

If you are talking CAP, Pete is certainly the FP to use; it has good maneuverability rating and 3 MGs... it still won't shoot down anything but the reduced accuracy is good

Ruffe comes to late; and it is too slow.. I think it might work very well against anything that is slow

I think if you're going to be using floatplanes on CAP, the Rufe is the way to go. Sure, they'll not stand up in direct combat with the likes of the Wildcats, but you don't need a first-class fighter to shoot down torpedo or dive bombers.

If you use the two big CS's with nothing but Rufe's on them (though not sure why you would), that's nearly 50 fighters - more or less a CarDiv's worth.

That sparks of some interesting thoughts of using them as ersatz carrier cover for convoys near the frontlines.

In a more conventional line, Rufe CS's could give the Mini-KB a bit extra protection. Fifty extra Rufe's on Low-Alt CAP over the Mini-KB would free up the Zero's for highter duties or for escorts.

The point I was making is that I would only use CS as CAP on the early stages on the war; when the Ruffe is not available.. Once it is available, I am already on the defensive. That said, having ~50 Ruffes might be interesting; I just have not yet reached a point to test it. Also understanding the oportunity cost; maybe having ~50 FP doing nav search is more cost efficient

[mind_messing]

Really, for disrupting slow attackers like USN float planes or torpedo bombers, any CAP at all will do. You just need to set them to the right altitude (around 5k, maybe down to 3k).

So let the Rufe's do it and keep the Zeros up high for the dive bombers.

I'm undecided over the CS ships myself, but most of my floatplane groups are already resized!

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

If you are talking CAP, Pete is certainly the FP to use; it has good maneuverability rating and 3 MGs... it still won't shoot down anything but the reduced accuracy is good

Ruffe comes to late; and it is too slow.. I think it might work very well against anything that is slow

I think if you're going to be using floatplanes on CAP, the Rufe is the way to go. Sure, they'll not stand up in direct combat with the likes of the Wildcats, but you don't need a first-class fighter to shoot down torpedo or dive bombers.

If you use the two big CS's with nothing but Rufe's on them (though not sure why you would), that's nearly 50 fighters - more or less a CarDiv's worth.

That sparks of some interesting thoughts of using them as ersatz carrier cover for convoys near the frontlines.

In a more conventional line, Rufe CS's could give the Mini-KB a bit extra protection. Fifty extra Rufe's on Low-Alt CAP over the Mini-KB would free up the Zero's for highter duties or for escorts.

The point I was making is that I would only use CS as CAP on the early stages on the war; when the Ruffe is not available.. Once it is available, I am already on the defensive. That said, having ~50 Ruffes might be interesting; I just have not yet reached a point to test it. Also understanding the oportunity cost; maybe having ~50 FP doing nav search is more cost efficient

IIRC, Rufe's can do both CAP and Naval Search. I don't think they've the same range as Jake's, but the option is there.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

IIRC, Rufe's can do both CAP and Naval Search. I don't think they've the same range as Jake's, but the option is there.

very good point
do you need to pay PP to change from FP to FF?
and obviously you will need pilots that are good at both skills

[Jorge_Stanbury]

What I think I will do is to keep some FF units at the right size so I can replace the CS organical squadrons if and when I need to; so no need to do pay PP. Also these these squadrons will have properly trained pilots

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

IIRC, Rufe's can do both CAP and Naval Search. I don't think they've the same range as Jake's, but the option is there.

very good point
do you need to pay PP to change from FP to FF?
and obviously you will need pilots that are good at both skills

I don't think there are any FF groups that can switch to FP. There is at least one FP group that can switch to FF.

You can simply use two groups on your CS's. One group of 12 (or 10) Jakes for NavSearch and ASW, and another group of 12 (or 10) Rufe's for CAP.

Sure, it uses up two floatplane groups per CS, but the FP groups can be stripped from IJN ships that have two FP groups. The FF groups are the real shortage, but as of 6/42 I have four active FF groups, so one for each CS.

[Czert]

i thought that you cant change from fp to ff, unless it is setuped in upgrade path.

[SenToku]

I don't find Rufes especially usefull in any role. Like Jorge mentioned, they are too late to do any real good. For naval search/ASW Jake is far superior and as a fighter any land based will beat Rufe. Also the CS mounted float plane's weather limits are serious problem, limiting the use almost always to static anti-patrol duties behind the frontlines.

Use of FFs as landing support cap is one option. Load 9 plane squardon to normal AV with 9 plane capacity. When the amphi TF unloads, the Av is considered to be in "shore" hex and you get insta cap. Again, the Rufe's medicore air-ro-air preformance limits how long and where this is useful. Generally I would not use this if there is possibility of escorted bomber strikes, but few Hudsons or Blenheims or Swordfish can have rough time against this.

I use CS ships as KB "eyes" with Jakes until the D4Y1-C comes along, then toss them to yard to get CVL upgrades (which I belive is far superior setup in any role). With D4Y1-C/C6N1 carrier recons you have naval search radii of 20+ hexes and A6M5's are give you serious air-to-air cap. Also CVL does not suffer from same weather limitations as CS. Also I prepeare for losing them by converting something like 4-8 xAK's to AV's.

For AV's I think the Jake is best FP until introduction of E15K Norm which gives 4 hexes to naval search range. Even E15's increased service doesn't matter on patrol duties. I like 18 plane squardons and usually "resize" some to this format. Ordinary AV can then load them (cap 9 x 2 for max overload), some supplies and since they have seaplane support of 21, unload them almost any friendly dot or base hex to give you instant patrol/ASW base without need for supply runs or airfield support.

[PaxMondo]

Rufe's are my CAT-klller. I stage them up with an AV on dot bases that are within the CAT search arcs and let them intercept. [8D] Very effective in the Solomons and the DEI where you know the allies would always have Search up ....

No, a Rufe cannot go up against any normal fighter, but against another float or amphib AC it does quite nicely. Decent range, typical A6M armament.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: SenToku

I don't find Rufes especially usefull in any role. Like Jorge mentioned, they are too late to do any real good. For naval search/ASW Jake is far superior and as a fighter any land based will beat Rufe. Also the CS mounted float plane's weather limits are serious problem, limiting the use almost always to static anti-patrol duties behind the frontlines.

Use of FFs as landing support cap is one option. Load 9 plane squardon to normal AV with 9 plane capacity. When the amphi TF unloads, the Av is considered to be in "shore" hex and you get insta cap. Again, the Rufe's medicore air-ro-air preformance limits how long and where this is useful. Generally I would not use this if there is possibility of escorted bomber strikes, but few Hudsons or Blenheims or Swordfish can have rough time against this.

I use CS ships as KB "eyes" with Jakes until the D4Y1-C comes along, then toss them to yard to get CVL upgrades (which I belive is far superior setup in any role). With D4Y1-C/C6N1 carrier recons you have naval search radii of 20+ hexes and A6M5's are give you serious air-to-air cap. Also CVL does not suffer from same weather limitations as CS. Also I prepeare for losing them by converting something like 4-8 xAK's to AV's.

For AV's I think the Jake is best FP until introduction of E15K Norm which gives 4 hexes to naval search range. Even E15's increased service doesn't matter on patrol duties. I like 18 plane squardons and usually "resize" some to this format. Ordinary AV can then load them (cap 9 x 2 for max overload), some supplies and since they have seaplane support of 21, unload them almost any friendly dot or base hex to give you instant patrol/ASW base without need for supply runs or airfield support.

Yep. CS are more affected by weather than actual flight decks. It's another tick mark in the column for converting them to CVLs.

[GreyJoy]

Usually, out of my 4 CS, i use two of them as the eyes of the KB (with Jakes) and the other two as Rufe Platform.
Sure they can't compete with the Wildcats, but they add a good amount of firepower to the total KB's power. Against unescorted DBs or TBs they are just as effective as the Zeros.
48 Rufes is better than nothing on CAP at low level IMHO.

With PDU OFF you are much less flexible, so that may not be possible

[pontiouspilot]

great discussion....thanks