Updated manual

[DirtyFred]

what is this whining about a proper manual? there are a LOT of resources at hand - and CMANO is the best naval sim ever done - worth more then the price matrix is asking - trust me - i played all of harpoon, fleet command, naval war arctic circle, and many many more (even red storm on C64)

baloogans vids and website, this forum, the wiki's, there are even dedicated websites to some nations air forces, navies, armies and platforms - use google and the forums available to naval simmers - get involved

the manual shipped with CMANO is to start out - later if you're advanced enough - there is much more in the depth of the "internet sea" ...

so get off the devs back with kindergarden issues and let them continue the best naval sim ever [;)]

[Sardaukar]

Kind of funny comparing that WitP-AE "is worth every penny" (well, it is) and it's manual has not been updated since release in 2004, IIRC (?) [:D]

So, putting into perspective that Command MANO has had 107 updated versions under a year, it's bit funny complaint. AE is also one game with phenomenal (albeit volunteer) support, but not as quick/responsive as with Command.

[cuthbo2001]

Let me throw this in the mix. Agreed the feedback and sheer development pace is second to none. put yourself in the shoes of someone buying the game. Does the manual reflect the current state of affairs, indeed can it hope to given the current rate of changes? I can't but help think that as a community we can help out here , perhaps keeping an easy to use reference source to fill in the important changes that have occurred from the time of manual release to present iteration. It could be perhaps hosted on baloogan's site which seems to be very popular and a stopping off point for people getting into the game.
As for crashes etc. I have had a few , but simply do not recognise the picture that is being painted of an unfinished crash prone program.

[HailRider]

I have had a crash a day I have used the program since I started.

I've made a button pad with the TouchControl app on an iPad to improve controls - what a difference!! Way easier to use. The new hotkeys are a help, but more are needed. With TouchControl, no more hotkeys are needed, actually. Just make your own. Its great!

I spend 10 times the time searching to do things than playing. I've been at it for 1-2 weeks, and I still feel I am nowhere. I love the detail. I love geography and military history. I've been a wargamer for 20 years. But to hunt down every little bit of information is quite tedious. I agree that documentation is not necessary a priority, but reference tables ARE!! I am suggesting a table of missiles and their ranges and targets, organized by tracking systems. Then a table of tracking systems, with explanations of how to use them. This is a serious gap that is virtually impossible to sort out without help. Ballogan helped me, but no one else did. Maybe no one else actually understands it enough to be able to explain it.

I'm not sure what other tables would be useful, but Missiles, and Delivery Systems is truly a must. I con't see it taking too long to do by someone who actually knows this stuff…

btw, I am totally frustrated too, and will likely stop using the program soon.

[thewood1]

If you don't update beyond the official 1.03, the manual is up to date and has a supplement for 1.03. If you want more than that, don't install the beta builds.

As to manuals...note the previous reference to BFC. They have almost no documentation beyond the basics. There is no real reference to the details of the units represented in the game. The devs basically told people to use google.

The really bizarre part is the number of people coming in asking questions that are answered in the manual. It shows you that haters will just hate.

[HailRider]

Its not a matter of hate, from my part. It is a matter of playability for new, non seasoned, players. If you don't care about us new players, offer a refund, and I will be on my way. So will all the new players.

[Sardaukar]

If you want refund, you simply contact Matrix helpdesk. Sorry that the game was not for you, despite all help you were given.

To add, about EVERY seasoned wargamer knows that almost every manual lacks badly behind computer game (except in board games, usually). If that is some sort of surprise, well, I guess then not seasoned enough. [8D] It's just how things are and that's why there is forum and chatroom to help people.

[cuthbo2001]

I think it would be simplistic to categorise this as "haters" complaining and dismiss user difficulties. CMANO is a complex game and we should be mindful of helping and welcoming newcomers to the game. theWood1 point taken about 1.03 , but I still think that some organised community help would bridge the gap whilst developers get a chance to come up for breath and get around to manual addendums. I think most of us would agree that we would prefer the developers spending their time on improvements and bug squashing

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: HailRider

Its not a matter of hate, from my part. It is a matter of playability for new, non seasoned, players. If you don't care about us new players, offer a refund, and I will be on my way. So will all the new players.

You're always welcome to pursue a refund [:)] We do feel though we have a great product and a great relationship with our player base and hope you will stick around.

The development team has been reading and picking up on whats important and I think the group as a whole has been responsive. At the end of the day though it is up to you.

In terms of tables they're available on Baloogan's site as well as the database viewer in game. Not many other games have such a good synergy between community and developer. We feel its important to maintain that.

We're still in beta (as the build string specifies) and will put something together by the official release. Banging on us now for this is pre-emptive as we're still adding stuff. We do see though it is important to players and are working on addressing it.

Thanks!

Mike

[thewood1]

How much more organized from a community perspective can you get than what Boolagan and others have done. You see this in every complex wargame. People complaining about documentation. Command is better than a lot of them out there.

The manual and its supplement have kept up with development. If you don't like how beta documentation is done...don't update with betas. Use official only. I don't typically dismiss people having difficulties, but when someone uses Harpoon as a benchmark for documentation and another threatens to get a refund over it, I have to call out people for either being lazy or having skewed expectations.

I hate losing players in the community, but I hate seeing devs wasting time addressing something like this when there are so many resources available that someone won't take advantage of. Command comes with a good manual, it has significant commitment from devs, and it has a community that has provided incredible resources for learning. But if someone wants to throw away $80 and think everything is going to be spoon fedfor a game this complex, I would rather they get a refund.

[mikmykWS]

As a general statement we do know there are haters out there who do leverage the ambiguity of the internet to stir up trouble etc. This is not some new thing they cleverly invented. Our view is that the best tool we have to deal this is the community itself as they eventually do call bs when they see it. We deeply appreciate this as it keeps us on task doing the work what needs to be done. Our job is to advance the product, make our customers happy with it and not get into it with trolls.

Thanks!

Mike

[SSN754planker]

Id like to think that back 10 years ago or so that a printed huge thick manual was more important than maybe the actual game itself. (the legendary Harpoon II manual comes to mind) But now, we have so many other outlets for information on a game that a manual or even a e manual has gone a few rungs down the ladder of importance. There is a nice manual provided with CMANO that lays out more than enough information to get started. There are literally DAYS of content available on YouTube that provide even more in depth info on features that have arrived since the manual was printed. Baloogan's videos are at the forefront of that. The info is there in the build changes. There is a very nice wiki (also provided by Baloogan) that gives you even more information. There is probably more out there that i am missing. I prefer going through those rather than thumbing a paper manual any day. It keeps my eyes on my screen.

But trashing the sim just because you're frustrated you haven't seen the second coming of the Harpoon II manual is silly. CMANO is THE best simulation in this genre ever IMO, and provides so much more than what we had before.

[cuthbo2001]

I don't think we disagree Wood,but lets not be so quick to dismiss. Mike has it right these are still Betas.I forget how spoiled we are by having access to the betas, but you know what they say about feeding the beast!

[thewood1]

I have been saying they are betas...that is my entire point. If you can't handle working on what is declared an early release beta build, stick with the official 1.00 or 1.03 official release.

btw, the Harpoon manuals never kept up with the developments. I think there was maybe one major update and then a bunch of readmes.

[thewood1]

I say we add manual updates to the feature poll and see where that takes us.

[HailRider]

I don't even want a refund. I am happy to pay for development. But I am getting frustrated with the response of certain members, just see above or in a previous thread. The amount of arrogance is astounding. Since this is such a complicated game with poor documentation, the forum managers should really stop people from the berating new players asking for help. Simply saying 'Google it' is not helpful. Especially when they are wagging their finger at you and saying' I know the answer but I won't tell you.' That is just simply unacceptable.

If you are going to rely on the forum and community resources for documentation, then the forum needs to be friendly and open to ignorant questions. Of course the questions are ignorant, otherwise we wouldn't be asking them.

[jdkbph]

I wonder if part of the problem, at least, is that Matrix doesn't do a great job defining the complexity levels of the games they sell. For instance, CMANO is labeled Complexity: Advanced, Expert in their catalog. But what does that mean?

To some it might mean "I'll have to read the manual because intuition is not going to be enough". To me it indicates that player subject knowledge above and beyond the mechanics of the game is required.

Realistically a game manual can only ever be expected to address the mechanics. For a Beginner level game, perhaps this is enough. For an Intermediate level game, I could imagine a separate but all-in-one type resource, such as a strategy guide, might suffice. However, when you get to the Advanced/Expert level - and I'm thinking CMANO or WITP:AE as examples - even that is not enough. You need to study the subject... read books... becomes knowledgeable not only of the game, but of the real world strategies, tactics, technologies and applications represented in the game.

I think that's where the disconnect is with the frustrated individuals posting to the thread. No manual, nor even a strategy guide (although good comprehensive documents along these line would help), can ever hope to provide that to a player.

Perhaps the Matrix catalog should explain this?

The down side, obviously, is that you may scare away potential customers. Not being the one depending on sales for my livelihood, it's easy for me to say it's better that than frustrated and dissatisfied customers running amok in forums like these. I don't know. Tough call...

JD

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: HailRider

I don't even want a refund. I am happy to pay for development. But I am getting frustrated with the response of certain members, just see above or in a previous thread. The amount of arrogance is astounding. Since this is such a complicated game with poor documentation, the forum managers should really stop people from the berating new players asking for help. Simply saying 'Google it' is not helpful. Especially when they are wagging their finger at you and saying' I know the answer but I won't tell you.' That is just simply unacceptable.

If you are going to rely on the forum and community resources for documentation, then the forum needs to be friendly and open to ignorant questions. Of course the questions are ignorant, otherwise we wouldn't be asking them.

Yes this isn't a star thread that is for sure [:)]

I have faith the community will work this out. We trust you guys and really need to be working on what matters not being the forum nannies[:)]

Thanks!

Mike

[thewood1]

There is some serious disingenuous-ness going on here...

tm.asp?m=3613883&mpage=2&key=

Someone asked specifically what illumination was...

A few links were provided...

That same person said that wasn't good enough...

Another link was provided...

It was suggested googling it if those FOUR links weren't good enough...

Boolegan stepped in and still seemed to get ignored...

Finally, an actual paragraph was provided from the manual that explained what illumination was...

I am not quite sure what is expected. That person claimed to be a long-time Harpoon user and still couldn't figure it out. He has the wrong game. It happens. It has happened to me. It happens to everyone.

The above poster is being incredibly disingenuous in saying he was only given a google suggestion. He was given four links and an offer of a website wit dozens of tutorials.

[SSN754planker]

+1 to that thewood1