Distant Worlds AI

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
And no, any AI is going to have shortcomings, simply because an AI is not a thinking creature like a human.

The OP focuses on areas which involve simple changes. It does not suggest developing a thinking creature.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I did it simply so that I wouldn't give myself a huge advantage over the AI. I can compile the files and release them, but its not really a full theme. It would be more like my other releases.

I'm not a modder but happy to work together on this to review and propose improvements. Would be great if some others can join us so we can develop the best we can for the current engine.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I did it simply so that I wouldn't give myself a huge advantage over the AI. I can compile the files and release them, but its not really a full theme. It would be more like my other releases.

I'm not a modder but happy to work together on this to review and propose improvements. Would be great if some others can join us so we can develop the best we can for the current engine.

OK, give me a couple of days to get it all compiled and I'll post it in the modding forum.

[pycco]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I did it simply so that I wouldn't give myself a huge advantage over the AI. I can compile the files and release them, but its not really a full theme. It would be more like my other releases.

I'm not a modder but happy to work together on this to review and propose improvements. Would be great if some others can join us so we can develop the best we can for the current engine.

i really don't think the "ai" is the problem its the designs, the zero tax thing. the zero taxes shouldn't be to difficult to change.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I did it simply so that I wouldn't give myself a huge advantage over the AI. I can compile the files and release them, but its not really a full theme. It would be more like my other releases.

I'm not a modder but happy to work together on this to review and propose improvements. Would be great if some others can join us so we can develop the best we can for the current engine.

Cheers Shark let's see where it goes.

To work best we should also increase the proportion of larger ship sizes which can be done now in the policy files. And ideally we also need the ability the mod the AI Research Build Order (another request that Erik has advised he will look into). There is no point ensuring they have a fantastic Laser Weapon attack ship if the AI is wasting time on other technology that adds little or no value.

That's why I didn't mention ship design in the OP, seems a bit harder to significantly improve.

Also note Erik has responded on the equivalent Steam Forum to advise they will have another look at how the AI handles tax rates ... so thank you Erik!

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
To all of those complaining about the AI...

Just to supplement, we are not complaining, we are constructively proposing improvements focused on areas of high value add that are relatively simple to implement.

[8D]

[MartialDoctor]

Icemania,

You beat me to this topic

Since I started playing Distant Worlds again, I still have the issue of finding a really challenging game.

Ship design, tax rate, and exploration are all big issues for the AI.

The diplomacy issue is another whole can of worms...

In terms of AI, though, I'd say there are other issues that would also need addressing:

1) The AI hordes too much money. There's not much reason, in this game, to save up money. I've been able to easily take out empires with a much better economy than myself for this reason alone.

2) The AI doesn't focus enough on ships. It spends too much on ground troops and static defenses. At least, it used to (I'm assuming this hasn't changed).

3) The last one would take a good deal of time to work on but would be worthwhile. If the AI would stop attacking in waves and attack together, it would make a huge difference. It's quite easy to take out waves of fleets, even against a superior opponent. However, if the AI were to attack one target with multiple fleets, all at once, or multiple targets, all at the same time, it would make the AI much more competent.

#1 and #2 would be fairly easy to implement. #3 obviously wouldn't, but I wanted to point it out anyways

I'd be one happy camper to see improvements to the AI.

[MartialDoctor]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I did it simply so that I wouldn't give myself a huge advantage over the AI. I can compile the files and release them, but its not really a full theme. It would be more like my other releases.

I'm not a modder but happy to work together on this to review and propose improvements. Would be great if some others can join us so we can develop the best we can for the current engine.

OK, give me a couple of days to get it all compiled and I'll post it in the modding forum.

Sweet! Thanks, Shark. I'm also looking forward to using it [:)]

[OzoneGrif_slith]

I think the Tax system is the problem, not the AI using it.

The growth shouldn't be increased so much when taxes are at 0%.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I did it simply so that I wouldn't give myself a huge advantage over the AI. I can compile the files and release them, but its not really a full theme. It would be more like my other releases.

I'm not a modder but happy to work together on this to review and propose improvements. Would be great if some others can join us so we can develop the best we can for the current engine.

OK, give me a couple of days to get it all compiled and I'll post it in the modding forum.

Awesome I was wondering if this would be possible and how to do it. I would love to give the AI my designs and watch it bloom. Look forward to your mod and seeing how you do it and would love to contribute as well!

[Icemania]

Fantastic to have you back MartialDoctor! Your advice when I first joined this board was great.

1. In my experience the AI hordes money less than last we corresponded. I believe one of the later Shadows patches improved this ... but there is still plenty of cash available to farm.

2. With AI ship building it's a bit of a mix. If you look at my current AAR the Gizurean built plenty of ships but other races have very few.

3. Coordinated AI Fleet attacks of Allies are improved in Universe. You'll notice it the most in the Ancient Galaxy Storyline game.

There are simple improvements possible with technology selling I've posted about on many occasions since you convinced me it was an issue in the early days to no avail as yet.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: OzoneGrif

I think the Tax system is the problem, not the AI using it.

The growth shouldn't be increased so much when taxes are at 0%.

I've wary of suggesting changes to mechanics at this stage of the game's life cycle.

Care would need to be taken to avoid unintended consequences. For example the impact of this suggestion would be to reduce growth rates of new colonies meaning it would take even longer for them to get to maximum population and become a major factor in the game. It's slow enough as it is.

[MartialDoctor]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Fantastic to have you back MartialDoctor! Your advice when I first joined this board was great.

1. In my experience the AI hordes money less than last we corresponded. I believe one of the later Shadows patches improved this ... but there is still plenty of cash available to farm.

2. With AI ship building it's a bit of a mix. If you look at my current AAR the Gizurean built plenty of ships but other races have very few.

3. Coordinated AI Fleet attacks of Allies are improved in Universe. You'll notice it the most in the Ancient Galaxy Storyline game.

There are simple improvements possible with technology selling I've posted about on many occasions since you convinced me it was an issue in the early days to no avail as yet.

Yes, it's nice to be back, thanks [:)]

That's good to hear about the improvements. I look forward to seeing them in game.

[Gregorovitch55]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: OzoneGrif

I think the Tax system is the problem, not the AI using it.

The growth shouldn't be increased so much when taxes are at 0%.

I've wary of suggesting changes to mechanics at this stage of the game's life cycle.

Care would need to be taken to avoid unintended consequences. For example the impact of this suggestion would be to reduce growth rates of new colonies meaning it would take even longer for them to get to maximum population and become a major factor in the game. It's slow enough as it is.

Has it been considered to allow additional population transfers from developed worlds to new colonies?

[Darkspire]

Has it been considered to allow additional population transfers from developed worlds to new colonies?

You can do that manually with colony ships in the current game?

Darkspire

[Bingeling]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: OzoneGrif

I think the Tax system is the problem, not the AI using it.

The growth shouldn't be increased so much when taxes are at 0%.

I've wary of suggesting changes to mechanics at this stage of the game's life cycle.

Care would need to be taken to avoid unintended consequences. For example the impact of this suggestion would be to reduce growth rates of new colonies meaning it would take even longer for them to get to maximum population and become a major factor in the game. It's slow enough as it is.

I agree about being careful in changing anything drastically. It may not be for the current DW, and who knows about what may come?

I think tax levels should have a very low if any impact on population growth. It should however have quite a significant impact on migration. Many things should affect the willing to migrate, though, like empire of target colony, main population, population policy, development level, tax level, safety of travel, planet type, and possibly more. In the early game for instance, with pirates crawling all over the place, who would want to migrate? Who would want to stay on a 40% tax world if there is a nice, safe, developed and 0% tax one nearby?

If tax becomes too important for migration, running early 0 tax on your fresh colonies could be crippling if it makes all of the capital population want to leave. Your neighbor empire running 0 tax could be bad enough, leaving it open for "player exploits". Things would need to be tested and balanced a lot.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
OK, give me a couple of days to get it all compiled and I'll post it in the modding forum.

Shark ... just having a look again at the ship design policy files.

I was hoping to see conditional logic with construction size as this is the biggest factor in determining the number of components that are feasible. If this was in place the vast majority of my ship designs could be emulated.

A specific example would be Explorer Ships. My pre-warp size 160 Explorer has 16 Ion Trusters so it can get around my home system very quickly but only 4 fuel cells because no more are needed. However, my post-warp size 300 Explorers has 14 fuel cells because there is a massive galaxy to explore and it can't afford to be refuelling all the time.

I was hoping this could be implemented but alas it appears not. Hopefully I've missed something? When I then consider what could be done with the constraints of these policy files it's extremely limited.

Base designs we could probably improve a fair bit.

The Empire Policy files could also use rework.

[Icemania]

Here is what I suggest is changed preferably in a Patch for Default Base Designs.

In each case I've provided a brief justification and noted where the observation is General or Race Specific.

Hopefully will inspire some further debate as well.

Large Space Port
• General. Construction yards: increase from 12 to 36. The number of yards is far too small, the AI has backlogs far too often.
• General. Docking bays: increase from 24 to 48. The number of docking bays is far too small, the AI has backlogs far too often.
• General. Plants: reduce from 4 to 2 (or even 1?). The extra plants do not change construction speed.
• General. Empire Policy: Large Spaceports are built at 3B, change to 10B. 3B is far too early for such a massive structure. Smaller worlds do not merit a Large Spaceport.
• Race Specific. Weapons: there are three weapons instead focus on one primary weapon where the majority of research is done for that race.
• General. Labs increase from 4 to 8 to speed up AI research pre-warp [EDITED following further review].

Medium Space Port
• General. Plants: reduce from 2 to 1. The extra plants do not change construction speed.
• Race Specific. Weapons: there are three weapons (e.g. torpedo, beam and fighters) instead focus on one primary weapon where the majority of research is done for that race.
• General. Labs increase from 3 to 8 to speed up AI research pre-warp [EDITED following further review].

Small Space Port
• General. Plants: reduce from 2 to 1. The extra plants do not change construction speed.
• General. Construction yards: reduce from 4 to 2. Important for Small Space Ports to build quickly to aid defence.
• Race Specific. Weapons: there are three weapons (e.g. torpedo, beam and fighters) instead focus on one primary weapon where the majority of research is done for that race.
• General. Labs increase from 3 to 8 to speed up AI research pre-warp [EDITED following further review].

Gas Mining Stations
• General. Gas Extractors: increase from 2 to 3. The extra production will benefit the AI particularly early game.
• General. Luxury Resource Extractors: increase from 1 to 3. The extra production will benefit the AI particularly early game. Unrealistic to expect the AI to optimise this depending on what resources are at a given location.
• Race Specific. Primary Weapons: increase from 3 to 10. The current structure is extremely weak and vulnerable. Check across races to remove non Primary Weapons.
• General. Shields: increase from 3 to 10. The current structure is extremely weak and vulnerable.
• General. Armour: increase from 2 to 10. The current structure is extremely weak and vulnerable.
• General. Docking Bays: increase from 4 to 16. Lots of ship need to be refuelled and the AI has backlogs far too often.

Mining Stations
• General. Mining Engines: increase from 2 to 3. The extra production will benefit the AI particularly early game.
• General. Luxury Resource Extractors: increase from 1 to 3. The extra production will benefit the AI particularly early game. Unrealistic to expect the AI to optimise this depending on what resources are at a given location.
• Race Specific. Primary Weapons: increase from 3 to 10. The current structure is extremely weak and vulnerable. Check across races to remove non Primary Weapons.
• General. Shields: increase from 3 to 10. The current structure is extremely weak and vulnerable.
• General. Armour: increase from 2 to 10. The current structure is extremely weak and vulnerable.

Research Stations
• Race Specific. Primary Weapons: increase from 3 to 10. The current structure is extremely weak and vulnerable. Check across races to remove non Primary Weapons.
• General. Shields: increase from 6 to 10. The current structure is extremely weak and vulnerable.
• General. Armour: increase from 4 to 10. The current structure is extremely weak and vulnerable.

No major comments on Defence Bases or Monitoring Stations as I do not use them. Resort Bases look okay.

Still no idea how to make material changes to Ship Designs with these policy files .. help!

[Oberst_Klink]

Im a not a modder, neither I am good about AI scripting, but there's an article I posted for TOAW III, regarding AI design, behaviour and possible scripting that might be ancient, but proved to be very efficient in a 90s wargame that was unfortunately scrapped. The AI script and philosophy was quite advanced for that time.

fb.asp?m=3535976

Klink, Oberst

[Bingeling]

ORIGINAL: Icemania
<Snip>

Still no idea how to make material changes to Ship Designs with these policy files .. help!

Good suggestions, but buffing mines that much would have to be combined with a pirate update. There would no longer be any purpose for small pirate fleets, or single pirate ships. It is a good thing for an empire to be safe from pirates, but pirates should be a fitting threat.

What is the problem with policy files?

The design files are easy to update, just look at them, but updating all of them is probably a chore.

To Shark: Does your designs give some variety to different race's designs, at least in what weapons are used? There has also been an idea of better designs for more militaristic and more intelligent races, do you have this to some degree? Also, things like more speed/less weapons, less size for the gizureans?