No, that wasn't my point.
Set it at 1 - 5 k and you stand an excellent chance of avoid his sweep. You would then be in position to counter any unescorted low level follow up Bettys.
Far too many players here believe you have to meet fire with fire. You don't and you shouldn't.
But if you insist on playing your opponent's game, which is not a smart way of approaching AE, just have your CAP set at 2 different levels, within a delta of 5k of each other so that one of your units can bounce the enemy after it has bounced you. Now as to which of your units you set at the lower altitude that depends on the models stats which is why you stagger your CAP using different models.
But frankly, all this discussion re HRs is extremely boring because the so called bounce can be satisfactorily met without any HR whatsoever. It means more work for the player, something which is anathema for many of the more vociferous posters on the forum who consistently search for the easiest "solution". These proponents will now come in and state that I know nothing of what I talk about but they will never tell inexperienced players is that even when a fighter "bounces" from 36k, it in turn will be bounced from the remaining "victims".
Alfred
Altitude House Rules
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
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BattleMoose
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:16 am
RE: Altitude House Rules
Okay, so I can evade a high level sweep with a very low CAP and might still catch the bombing run, that is very useful information to have, so thank you for that.
In the event that I do want to engage the sweep thats coming in at 27k feet I can choose to set my CAP at anything between, well from 10 to 27k and also staggered as well.
How should I go about choosing an appropriate CAP altitude? Do I want to look at the manoeuvrability ratings at the different altitudes? Or should I focus on the differences between the manoeuvrability ratings? Or some other piece of very useful information that I should be using?
In the event that I do want to engage the sweep thats coming in at 27k feet I can choose to set my CAP at anything between, well from 10 to 27k and also staggered as well.
How should I go about choosing an appropriate CAP altitude? Do I want to look at the manoeuvrability ratings at the different altitudes? Or should I focus on the differences between the manoeuvrability ratings? Or some other piece of very useful information that I should be using?
RE: Altitude House Rules
You look at manoeuvre ratings both at altitudes and the delta.
Let's say you are being swept by the A6M2 Zero at 27k. At that altitude, it's manoeuvre rating is 27. Against it you can put up the F2A-3 Buffalo, the F4F-3 Wildcat and the F4F-4 Wildcat. The manoeuvre rating of those three Allied fighters are:
F2A-3: 21/21/17/13/9
F4F-3: 22/22/22/18/14
F4F-4: 20/20/20/16/12
From these stats you can see that the airframe with the best rating @27k is the F4F-3. It so happens that at any given altitude, the F4F-3 has the best rating of the three Allied planes so you can choose to either use it as the sacrificial lamb (with the best chance of surviving) to receive the enemy dive or alternatively use it up higher to magnify its chances of killing the Zero when it dives on the Zero. But it is much more complicated than this. For the maneouvre ratings are in turn affected by the max speed of the model. Luckily for you here, the F4F-3 is the fastest of the Allied airframes in question so the relative delta remains the same. However what is not covered at all by the airframe stats is the A2A and defence skill ratings of the pilots themselves. The lower placed CAP should be flown by the squadron with the best pilot defence skill ratings so that they can survive better the enemy dive.
Then you have to take into account the delta between your aircraft and the Zero. The A6M2 ratings are: 33/33/27/21/10. The respective delta with the Allied airframes is:
F2A-3: -12/-12/-10/-8/-1
F4F-3: -11/-11/-5/-3/+4
F4F-4: -13/-13/-7/-5/+2
This means that you minimise the negative delta in receiving the initial enemy bounce if you place your F4F-4 squadron somewhere between 16k and 20k. Your F4F-3 squadron should be higher (for the counter bounce) but no more than a 5k delta from your F4F-4 squadron. Thus set the F4F-4 squadron to 20k and the F4F-3 squadron to 25k, assuming your best defence skill pilots are in the F4F-4 squadron. But if you do this, you will not be in position to meet any follow up low level bomber raids.
There are also other factors you have to take into account. Factors such as airframe durability, which in this instance is not significant. Also climb rate.
See what I mean about it being so much more work and why the lazy option is to have a HR. And why one should not be a mug and just on reflex oppose enemy sweeps.
Alfred
Let's say you are being swept by the A6M2 Zero at 27k. At that altitude, it's manoeuvre rating is 27. Against it you can put up the F2A-3 Buffalo, the F4F-3 Wildcat and the F4F-4 Wildcat. The manoeuvre rating of those three Allied fighters are:
F2A-3: 21/21/17/13/9
F4F-3: 22/22/22/18/14
F4F-4: 20/20/20/16/12
From these stats you can see that the airframe with the best rating @27k is the F4F-3. It so happens that at any given altitude, the F4F-3 has the best rating of the three Allied planes so you can choose to either use it as the sacrificial lamb (with the best chance of surviving) to receive the enemy dive or alternatively use it up higher to magnify its chances of killing the Zero when it dives on the Zero. But it is much more complicated than this. For the maneouvre ratings are in turn affected by the max speed of the model. Luckily for you here, the F4F-3 is the fastest of the Allied airframes in question so the relative delta remains the same. However what is not covered at all by the airframe stats is the A2A and defence skill ratings of the pilots themselves. The lower placed CAP should be flown by the squadron with the best pilot defence skill ratings so that they can survive better the enemy dive.
Then you have to take into account the delta between your aircraft and the Zero. The A6M2 ratings are: 33/33/27/21/10. The respective delta with the Allied airframes is:
F2A-3: -12/-12/-10/-8/-1
F4F-3: -11/-11/-5/-3/+4
F4F-4: -13/-13/-7/-5/+2
This means that you minimise the negative delta in receiving the initial enemy bounce if you place your F4F-4 squadron somewhere between 16k and 20k. Your F4F-3 squadron should be higher (for the counter bounce) but no more than a 5k delta from your F4F-4 squadron. Thus set the F4F-4 squadron to 20k and the F4F-3 squadron to 25k, assuming your best defence skill pilots are in the F4F-4 squadron. But if you do this, you will not be in position to meet any follow up low level bomber raids.
There are also other factors you have to take into account. Factors such as airframe durability, which in this instance is not significant. Also climb rate.
See what I mean about it being so much more work and why the lazy option is to have a HR. And why one should not be a mug and just on reflex oppose enemy sweeps.
Alfred
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BattleMoose
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:16 am
RE: Altitude House Rules
Thanks for your response Alfred, there's a lot of useful information there. In the PBEM that I am playing we agreed to have a max altitude of 27k feet and we have both consistently been using this altitude for sweeps and caps. So far I have been achieving good results with a CAP at 27k feet, mostly using P40s versus zeros.
And I certainly don't like the idea of having a sacrificial lamb group. Although I understand the method for setting up a counter bounce.
But will I achieve better results setting up a lower staggered cap with counter bouncing? When compared to straight cap at 27k feet? If the answer is, it depends, then on what does it depends?
Or should I just do the experimentation myself?
And I certainly don't like the idea of having a sacrificial lamb group. Although I understand the method for setting up a counter bounce.
But will I achieve better results setting up a lower staggered cap with counter bouncing? When compared to straight cap at 27k feet? If the answer is, it depends, then on what does it depends?
Or should I just do the experimentation myself?
RE: Altitude House Rules
If you are getting good results placing your CAP at 27k then don't change. Your Warhawks can outrun the enemy Zeros (which the navy fighters I gave in my example can't do), and if combined with good defence skill pilots, you already have a good natural counter. Plus you are already employing a HR which makes the Allied defensive task so much easier.
You may get a better overall outcome using staggered CAP but you would need to provide a lot more information for any meaningful discussion. I don't bother guessing anymore.
You should check for earlier posts from LoBaron. I usually let him deal with queries involving air combat.
Alfred
You may get a better overall outcome using staggered CAP but you would need to provide a lot more information for any meaningful discussion. I don't bother guessing anymore.
You should check for earlier posts from LoBaron. I usually let him deal with queries involving air combat.
Alfred
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BattleMoose
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:16 am
RE: Altitude House Rules
I never asked you to guess. Fundamentally this is my question, from before. (For sweeps versus cap)
Can you construct a scenario where setting a much lower CAP will yield better results than setting a CAP at an equal altitude?
RE: Altitude House Rules
Thanks for your post Alfred very informative.
RE: Altitude House Rules
ORIGINAL: Alfred
No, that wasn't my point.
Set it at 1 - 5 k and you stand an excellent chance of avoid his sweep. You would then be in position to counter any unescorted low level follow up Bettys.
Far too many players here believe you have to meet fire with fire. You don't and you shouldn't.
But if you insist on playing your opponent's game, which is not a smart way of approaching AE, just have your CAP set at 2 different levels, within a delta of 5k of each other so that one of your units can bounce the enemy after it has bounced you. Now as to which of your units you set at the lower altitude that depends on the models stats which is why you stagger your CAP using different models.
But frankly, all this discussion re HRs is extremely boring because the so called bounce can be satisfactorily met without any HR whatsoever. It means more work for the player, something which is anathema for many of the more vociferous posters on the forum who consistently search for the easiest "solution". These proponents will now come in and state that I know nothing of what I talk about but they will never tell inexperienced players is that even when a fighter "bounces" from 36k, it in turn will be bounced from the remaining "victims".
Alfred
RE: Altitude House Rules - 6/3/2014 12:29:40 AM
I would listen to Alfred, when I don't I have found out much later he is usually right. I have found that layered CAP can work really well. It's also really useful for hitting the TB that fly at 5K off of carriers. I have not tried to fly CAP at 5K to avoid the higher sweeps that that also is a good idea.
Rook749
AAR: This will End Badly @ tm.asp?m=3516510&mpage=1&key=, tm.asp?m=4074294 &
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 5&t=362017
AAR: This will End Badly @ tm.asp?m=3516510&mpage=1&key=, tm.asp?m=4074294 &
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 5&t=362017
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offenseman
- Posts: 768
- Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:05 pm
- Location: Sheridan Wyoming, USA
RE: Altitude House Rules
ORIGINAL: BattleMoose
Can you construct a scenario where setting a much lower CAP will yield better results than setting a CAP at an equal altitude?
Here is a common one. You own a base that only has two squadrons available for CAP. You set CAP at 27k and a Sweep arrives, engages your CAP and now your surviving CAP is low on ammo, probably has damaged planes and wounded pilots. After the furball is over, you remaining CAP flies back up to 27k and searches for the enemy.
The follow up enemy raid comes in at 12k and IF your CAP actually sees them, it has to take time to drop down to 12k which takes longer than you might figure since you cannot just plummet from the sky to lose that altitude; you have to spiral down (LoBaron's altitude delta). So in those circumstances your CAP will probably not intercept the target. The enemy raid freely attacks your base. Perhaps the CAP will intercept after bombs away but by then it is too late, the damage is done.
Or you can set one or both squadrons to CAP at 15k or somewhere close to where the enemy likes to bomb from. Let's say you use both at 15k. Now the Sweep comes in and bounces you, your CAP fights and the survivors climb back to 15k where they can easily intercept the follow up raid. The big difference is getting the interception.
This is especially important as IJ, because one molested 4e raid can, often times, close the base your CAP is flying from, or damage it enough that next turn, it can offer little CAP. At that point the enemy simply has to rinse and repeat to keep it closed permanently.
Of course with multiple squadrons flying CAP you can stagger them in different ways. Some vs Sweep at sweep altitudes and some at lower alts vs bombers, or perhaps if you are defending naval assets against CV a/c attack set CAP at a low altitude like 6k and some at 15k. Too often 15k CAP will not find near NOE or very low altitude attackers because you have the same interception solution problems above.
Sometimes things said in Nitwit sound very different in English.
RE: Altitude House Rules
ORIGINAL: Alfred
No, that wasn't my point.
Set it at 1 - 5 k and you stand an excellent chance of avoid his sweep. You would then be in position to counter any unescorted low level follow up Bettys.
Far too many players here believe you have to meet fire with fire. You don't and you shouldn't.
Alfred
Hi Alfred. Learned some things from your longer post detailing maneuver and speed. Thanks.
One thing I'm wondering about here. I've tried over many years to set CAP to 1-5k. So far for me it always sends the group setting to 9k when I do this.
I've never had a listing of below 6k in a combat report, and I've never been able to avoid sweepers at 32k flying over even my 6k CAP. They simply get the dive and decimate even very good fighters and pilots. The only option I've found is to either stand down and risk a bombing run or fight.
(Full combat report is attached below)
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
RE: Altitude House Rules
I thought I might have been remembering incorrectly, or simply didn't get it right during my tests with low CAP a few years ago in the Wild Sheep Chase game with JockMeister, but actually I just tried it again.
I set about twelve different fighter units to 5k CAP 60% 10% rest with 3 hex range to cover all bases in Central Burma.
Here is an example from the CR. Notice the groups are listed as flying at 9k, not 5k, and not one sweep fails to engage the CAP, even though they come in between 29k-31k.
[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR April 29, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Meiktila , at 58,47
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 35,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 15
A6M5 Zero x 65
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 5
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 137
Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 17
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 2 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1 Corsair: 1 destroyed
CAP engaged:
251 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(17 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
Zuikaku-1 with A6M3a Zero (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(15 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
Junyo-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(12 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 8 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
9th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(23 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
24th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(23 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 19 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
33rd Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(12 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
47th I.F.Chutai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
50th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(20 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
59th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(17 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
77th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(20 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 8 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
85th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(22 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 10 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
253 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (1 airborne, 10 on standby, 21 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Meiktila , at 58,47
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 12
A6M5 Zero x 24
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 3
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 103
Allied aircraft
Beaufighter VIc x 16
Hudson III (LR) x 12
Kittyhawk I x 16
B-17E Fortress x 24
B-17F Fortress x 12
B-24D Liberator x 11
B-24D1 Liberator x 12
B-25D1 Mitchell x 15
P-40E Warhawk x 25
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M5 Zero: 24 damaged
A6M5 Zero: 5 destroyed on ground
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
Beaufighter VIc: 2 destroyed
Hudson III (LR): 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
Kittyhawk I: 2 destroyed
B-17E Fortress: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 2 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 1 destroyed
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed
Airbase hits 10
Airbase supply hits 7
Runway hits 59
Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Hudson III (LR) bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
15 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-17F Fortress bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
251 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
Zuikaku-1 with A6M3a Zero (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(12 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
Junyo-1 with A6M5 Zero (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
9th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(19 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 18 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers
24th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(17 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
33rd Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
47th I.F.Chutai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
50th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
59th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 14 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
77th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 14 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
85th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(16 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 16 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bomber
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/font]
I set about twelve different fighter units to 5k CAP 60% 10% rest with 3 hex range to cover all bases in Central Burma.
Here is an example from the CR. Notice the groups are listed as flying at 9k, not 5k, and not one sweep fails to engage the CAP, even though they come in between 29k-31k.
[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR April 29, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Meiktila , at 58,47
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 35,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 15
A6M5 Zero x 65
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 5
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 137
Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 17
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 2 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1 Corsair: 1 destroyed
CAP engaged:
251 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(17 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
Zuikaku-1 with A6M3a Zero (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(15 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
Junyo-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(12 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 8 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
9th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(23 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
24th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(23 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 19 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
33rd Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(12 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
47th I.F.Chutai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
50th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(20 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
59th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(17 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
77th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(20 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 8 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
85th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(22 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 10 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
253 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (1 airborne, 10 on standby, 21 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Meiktila , at 58,47
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 12
A6M5 Zero x 24
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 3
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 103
Allied aircraft
Beaufighter VIc x 16
Hudson III (LR) x 12
Kittyhawk I x 16
B-17E Fortress x 24
B-17F Fortress x 12
B-24D Liberator x 11
B-24D1 Liberator x 12
B-25D1 Mitchell x 15
P-40E Warhawk x 25
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M5 Zero: 24 damaged
A6M5 Zero: 5 destroyed on ground
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
Beaufighter VIc: 2 destroyed
Hudson III (LR): 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
Kittyhawk I: 2 destroyed
B-17E Fortress: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 2 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 1 destroyed
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed
Airbase hits 10
Airbase supply hits 7
Runway hits 59
Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Hudson III (LR) bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
15 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-17F Fortress bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
251 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
Zuikaku-1 with A6M3a Zero (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(12 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
Junyo-1 with A6M5 Zero (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
9th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(19 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 18 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers
24th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(17 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
33rd Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
47th I.F.Chutai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
50th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
59th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 14 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
77th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 14 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
85th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(16 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 16 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bomber
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- Attachments
-
- combatreport_430429.txt
- (67.34 KiB) Downloaded 18 times
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
RE: Altitude House Rules
Started a thread in the tech section. Does anyone know if this is WAD?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
RE: Altitude House Rules
Did you try to send a PM to Alfred ?
RE: Altitude House Rules
obvert,
Sorry for the delay in responding. I don't come onto the forum every day.
In any case I see that michaelm has responded in this thread
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3627487
Besides providing the link I just want to add the general comment that the CR can be very misleading and I would have suggested that it was a graphic glitch. But better that michaelm gave you a definitive answer.
If you look at combat reports, you will often see that the estimated altitude of the incoming raid is quite wrong. But the release altitude of the strike package is always accurate. For example dive bombers will be estimated at 17k but because their release is 1-4k, they could only be mat the divebombing altitude of 10-15k. In this instance, as defending CAP always tries to get at least 2k above the incoming strike, the CR will state the CAP scrambled to 19k when in reality they did not climb that high.
In my own practice I find that fighters and fighter bombers assigned naval attack @ 1k with a secondary of escort which allows for assigning of CAP, get to low level flying torpedo bombers (particularly if they are unescorted) much more effectively than other high cover CAP.
As to still meeting the enemy 30k sweep, well I didn't say it was guaranteed to miss but consider the factors at play. If the sweep is 30k and the CAP is 1k, that means the CAP will attempt to climb 31k (assuming it has the capacity, your standard Warhawks are not going to make it). If the climb rate is only 2.5k per minute, that is 13 minutes. How much warning time was there? The 2/3 of CAP which is not airborne will need even more time so they could get there too late. Then there is the question of atmospheric conditions, will they see each other.
If you want to delve into it more, you should search for the threads of 12-18 months ago (IIRC) which discussed training flights getting caught up in combat. I made several posts and IIRC, so did LoBaron.
Alfred
Sorry for the delay in responding. I don't come onto the forum every day.
In any case I see that michaelm has responded in this thread
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3627487
Besides providing the link I just want to add the general comment that the CR can be very misleading and I would have suggested that it was a graphic glitch. But better that michaelm gave you a definitive answer.
If you look at combat reports, you will often see that the estimated altitude of the incoming raid is quite wrong. But the release altitude of the strike package is always accurate. For example dive bombers will be estimated at 17k but because their release is 1-4k, they could only be mat the divebombing altitude of 10-15k. In this instance, as defending CAP always tries to get at least 2k above the incoming strike, the CR will state the CAP scrambled to 19k when in reality they did not climb that high.
In my own practice I find that fighters and fighter bombers assigned naval attack @ 1k with a secondary of escort which allows for assigning of CAP, get to low level flying torpedo bombers (particularly if they are unescorted) much more effectively than other high cover CAP.
As to still meeting the enemy 30k sweep, well I didn't say it was guaranteed to miss but consider the factors at play. If the sweep is 30k and the CAP is 1k, that means the CAP will attempt to climb 31k (assuming it has the capacity, your standard Warhawks are not going to make it). If the climb rate is only 2.5k per minute, that is 13 minutes. How much warning time was there? The 2/3 of CAP which is not airborne will need even more time so they could get there too late. Then there is the question of atmospheric conditions, will they see each other.
If you want to delve into it more, you should search for the threads of 12-18 months ago (IIRC) which discussed training flights getting caught up in combat. I made several posts and IIRC, so did LoBaron.
Alfred
RE: Altitude House Rules
Thanks Alfred. I'll do some more experimentation. I'd just stopped out of frustration when the CR always read 9k. It probably wil be tough to miss sweeps on the Japanese side with Tojos and Jacks, with their phenomenal climb rates, but yeah, I'll have to try it out with P-40s and P-39s.
I did read those threads, but never use training in combat areas as I don't want to lose all my training crews and airframes needlessly when the sweeps do take hold and go for them.
I did read those threads, but never use training in combat areas as I don't want to lose all my training crews and airframes needlessly when the sweeps do take hold and go for them.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill