Extremely high fuel consumption for ACM

[MrBlizzard]

Got 2 ACM disbanded in Paramushiro Jima to look after the minefield; thay seem to consume an exagerated high amount of fuel, from 90 to 150 tons for day together.
Their fuel/day consumption should be 1,15 ton/hex that is 5 ton/day (from tracker) so it seems that maybe something could not be working well.
I'm playing with last beta patch
Thanks for any contribution



edit: the're both To'su class ACM

[michaelm75au]

I can't tell anything from this. I would need a save from the start of the turn that shows this.

[michaelm75au]

The ACM will burn random 1-40 fuel points per turn it is sued to maintain the port mines. The fuel expenditure in tracker is not likely from the ACM

[MrBlizzard]

Thanks Michael! I forgot to say that I’m playing reluctant admiral 6.6
In port there are just 4 PT that don’t move, no other ships. No industry. I’m almost sure that are only ACM the origin of fuel diminution.
I experienced the same problem in a previous match at Port Blair. just in islands with scarce maritime traffic it's easier to see.
I attach turn 98 save. if you need the password I’ll PM you.
Just rename wpae090.zip in wpae090.pws
Thanks a lot

Edit: a random 0-40 consumption for ACM means a mean of 20 fuel points per ACM per day. Don’t you think it’s a very high value considered the real ACM consumption of 5 points (moving around all night and all day at cruise speed)?
However it seems that actual consumption is even much bigger that designed.

[Czert]

well i think that 1-40 fuel per ACM is realy high. Why so big number ?

[michaelm75au]

I have already changed the way 'fuel' is used for the ACM. It will now decrease the ship's endurance rather than take fuel from the base. Once the ship's endurance runs low, it will refuel as normal from the port. This is inline with the other 'moving tf/ship' code.

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: czert2

well i think that 1-40 fuel per ACM is realy high. Why so big number ?

Not sure why it was this way. This code was done by other developers.

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

Thanks Michael! I forgot to say that I’m playing reluctant admiral 6.6
In port there are just 4 PT that don’t move, no other ships. No industry. I’m almost sure that are only ACM the origin of fuel diminution.
I experienced the same problem in a previous match at Port Blair. just in islands with scarce maritime traffic it's easier to see.
I attach turn 98 save. if you need the password I’ll PM you.
Just rename wpae090.zip in wpae090.pws
Thanks a lot

Edit: a random 0-40 consumption for ACM means a mean of 20 fuel points per ACM per day. Don’t you think it’s a very high value considered the real ACM consumption of 5 points (moving around all night and all day at cruise speed)?
However it seems that actual consumption is even much bigger that designed.

I ran the turn and even with the old code, it would not have decreased fuel in base by more than 80 (2x max 40). New new didn't touch the base but decreased ship endurance by 18 and 32 respectively.

===
I just noticed that the routine ran 4 times but there are only 2 ACMs in the base. If this was happening before then the max fuel used woud have been 4x40 (160) which is closer to what you were seeing.
It is running once for each side. Which is not correct.
==
ah, both sides seem to have mines present ????

[MrBlizzard]

Thanks Michael for fixing it,[:)]
I've a doubt:
The ACMs must be disbanded in port to repair minefields, I wonder if they run empty of fuel, they automatically reload fuel from port or manual check and intervention is needed?

[michaelm75au]

There are 2 minefields in the hex - both Japanese but of different mine devices. The ACM are getting used to maintain each minefield, expending fuel. This shouldn't be too bad if it is coming out of endurance; worst if coming out of fuel as seemed to be in the original case.

[PaxMondo]

Thanks for the support Michael!!

[&o][&o][&o]

[MrBlizzard]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

There are 2 minefields in the hex - both Japanese but of different mine devices. The ACM are getting used to maintain each minefield, expending fuel. This shouldn't be too bad if it is coming out of endurance; worst if coming out of fuel as seemed to be in the original case.

Wow!! Now it’s all clear!! Each mine type forms a different minefield, so if you use 3 different kind of mines you see just one minefield in interface, but in database you have 3 distinct!!! And your ACMs have to manage them all with tripled fuel consumption!!!
This is a great discover Michael and will make big fuel savings!! And new minefield creation policy with just one kind of mine.
Thanks again for both fix and explanation!!!

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

There are 2 minefields in the hex - both Japanese but of different mine devices. The ACM are getting used to maintain each minefield, expending fuel. This shouldn't be too bad if it is coming out of endurance; worst if coming out of fuel as seemed to be in the original case.

Wait. But how can a ship move more than it's ability during a day? What do you mean in the last phrase?

I've noticed this earlier and didn't think to count it up, but noticed a lot of fuel being expended. Is this also true for AMc working multiple minefields from within base (not in a TF) laid by the enemy?

If a ship can only move a certain amount during a the two phases it seems counter to game design to have it use more than the fuel it could use for that movement during those two phases. Am I missing something?

[GreyJoy]

That's pretty new to me!

Thanks for clarifying it Micheal!

[MrBlizzard]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: michaelm

There are 2 minefields in the hex - both Japanese but of different mine devices. The ACM are getting used to maintain each minefield, expending fuel. This shouldn't be too bad if it is coming out of endurance; worst if coming out of fuel as seemed to be in the original case.

Wait. But how can a ship move more than it's ability during a day? What do you mean in the last phrase?

I've noticed this earlier and didn't think to count it up, but noticed a lot of fuel being expended. Is this also true for AMc working multiple minefields from within base (not in a TF) laid by the enemy?

If a ship can only move a certain amount during a the two phases it seems counter to game design to have it use more than the fuel it could use for that movement during those two phases. Am I missing something?

Yes that abnormal consumption was the problem that now Michael has fixed if I have understood his post correctly.
Now the consumption has passed from 0-40 fuel units per day to 0-40 endurance points (nautical miles) per day that means to a maximum 1.14 fuel points per day (0.57 fuel points average).
So if I haven't made mistakes now the ACM consumption is 2.9% than was before. A huge decrease, now it makes sense!!

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: michaelm

There are 2 minefields in the hex - both Japanese but of different mine devices. The ACM are getting used to maintain each minefield, expending fuel. This shouldn't be too bad if it is coming out of endurance; worst if coming out of fuel as seemed to be in the original case.

Wait. But how can a ship move more than it's ability during a day? What do you mean in the last phrase?

I've noticed this earlier and didn't think to count it up, but noticed a lot of fuel being expended. Is this also true for AMc working multiple minefields from within base (not in a TF) laid by the enemy?

If a ship can only move a certain amount during a the two phases it seems counter to game design to have it use more than the fuel it could use for that movement during those two phases. Am I missing something?

Yes that abnormal consumption was the problem that now Michael has fixed if I have understood his post correctly.
Now the consumption has passed from 0-40 fuel units per day to 0-40 endurance points (nautical miles) per day that means to a maximum 1.14 fuel points per day (0.57 fuel points average).
So if I haven't made mistakes now the ACM consumption is 2.9% than was before. A huge decrease, now it makes sense!!

That just results in too little fuel consumption and would not appear to be consistent with how the manual treats other "moving" TFs which remain in the same hex (aka not docked).

1. An ACM which is tending a minefield is "moving" at its cruise speed in both the night and daylight phases.

2. If it's cruise speed is 10 knots, this means it will "travel" 3 hexes at night and 3 hexes during the day.

3. A movement of 6 hexes at cruising speed consumes 240 endurance.

4. An alternative way of looking at it is if the fuel consumption rate is 3 fuel points per hex travelled, 18 fuel points would be consumed.


I therefore am not surprised that the other developer who coded this settled on a random of 1-40 fuel points consumption as it probably was an easier way to abstract point 4 above in a situation where the only anchored ship type which is "moving" is an ACM. All other similar situations covered by the manual arise only with a TF which is not docked.

As to different minefields, the determinative point is not that different minetypes are laid. In theory one can lay a single minefield seeding different minetypes. What distinguishes minefields is time of laying. A single TF laying 80 mines in the one exercise is creating a single minefield. Two TF each laying 40 mines is laying two minefields.

Alfred

[MrBlizzard]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

ORIGINAL: obvert



Wait. But how can a ship move more than it's ability during a day? What do you mean in the last phrase?

I've noticed this earlier and didn't think to count it up, but noticed a lot of fuel being expended. Is this also true for AMc working multiple minefields from within base (not in a TF) laid by the enemy?

If a ship can only move a certain amount during a the two phases it seems counter to game design to have it use more than the fuel it could use for that movement during those two phases. Am I missing something?

Yes that abnormal consumption was the problem that now Michael has fixed if I have understood his post correctly.
Now the consumption has passed from 0-40 fuel units per day to 0-40 endurance points (nautical miles) per day that means to a maximum 1.14 fuel points per day (0.57 fuel points average).
So if I haven't made mistakes now the ACM consumption is 2.9% than was before. A huge decrease, now it makes sense!!

That just results in too little fuel consumption and would not appear to be consistent with how the manual treats other "moving" TFs which remain in the same hex (aka not docked).

1. An ACM which is tending a minefield is "moving" at its cruise speed in both the night and daylight phases.

2. If it's cruise speed is 10 knots, this means it will "travel" 3 hexes at night and 3 hexes during the day.

3. A movement of 6 hexes at cruising speed consumes 240 endurance.

4. An alternative way of looking at it is if the fuel consumption rate is 3 fuel points per hex travelled, 18 fuel points would be consumed.


I therefore am not surprised that the other developer who coded this settled on a random of 1-40 fuel points consumption as it probably was an easier way to abstract point 4 above in a situation where the only anchored ship type which is "moving" is an ACM. All other similar situations covered by the manual arise only with a TF which is not docked.

As to different minefields, the determinative point is not that different minetypes are laid. In theory one can lay a single minefield seeding different minetypes. What distinguishes minefields is time of laying. A single TF laying 80 mines in the one exercise is creating a single minefield. Two TF each laying 40 mines is laying two minefields.

Alfred

Hi Alfred, my calculations give a different results:

1) The only ACM japan class is To'su that has 9knots of cruise speed; I've checked also all allied ACMs, they all has 9knots of cruise speed axcept one class (alder) 8knots and another (NZ Castle) 10knots; so the average is 9knots.

2) let's consider To'su:
It has 2100 nm of endurance with 60 units of fuel;
the To'su consumption is 2100/60 = 35nm per unit of fuel.
The daily (night + day) travel at cruise speed is 9*24=216 nm (4,8 hexes, rounded it's 4 hexes).
The daily max consumption is 216/35 = 6,17 units of fuel (rounded 6),

3) And if 6 units of fuel is the maximum consumption possible, I believe that in average should be less; in no case could be 18 (don't say 40). I don't know if ACM tend to minefields also at night; can you check mines at night? If they can attend just by day the max consumption should be halved (from 6 to 3).


Edit: In my opinion the number of minefields in hex shouldn't have any influence on consumption; if a ACM can attend to 150 mines it is not important the kind of mines involved or the number of different minefields; if an ACM consumes max 6 units of fuel per day it can't phisically consume 12 units of fuel if you add some mines of another kind. just my opinion

[Alfred]

Reread s.6.2.13 of the manual.
 
Also s.6.2.3.
 
Alfred

[MrBlizzard]

Ok read, I believe that Michael has done the right thing.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Reread s.6.2.13 of the manual.

Also s.6.2.3.

Alfred

Also re-read these sections, and I guess I'm a bit slower than average. I can't find anywhere how a ship can use more fuel than it can possibly expend as determined by it's movement potential for that day. If it can, why?

This is a huge issue for players on the Japanese side especially. It becomes disadvantageous to maintain minefields, where in reality this was certainly not the case, especially those guarding home ports.

An ACM is certainly not going to be operated 24/7 solidly with no breaks either. Does it have three crews rotating shifts? So how can it use so much fuel?

It seems to me an ACM would be out occasionally to check the fields, maintain them extensively after storms or other changes to the environment, but certainly not every waking minute. Am I completely off base here?