2nd Game....Burn and Crash.

[Sieben_slith]

I figured out editing, that's why I deleted my second post. So, how about a simple answer to either of my simple questions? Or is that simply not possible?

[pasty11]

I answered it, I dont know how I can make it any easier, its just not hard.

[Sieben_slith]

Sir, either we are looking at different screens or one of us doesn't understand basic arithmetic. Leaving that aside, you are saying that I should use Actual Output to track Total Empire Research Potential as modified by the plus or minus adjustments listed below it (something the manual definitely doesn't say). By the way, my definition of "stacking" is that you add the adjustments before applying them, not apply them one at a time.

Any other opinions? If not, I will go with adjusting the number of labs so that total AO is equal to or slightly greater than TERP modified by the sum of listed adjustments. AO => (TERP x (sum of adjustments)). It would be nice if the manual and wiki simply said that, if of course it's true. And if it is, pasty11's point that TERP x modifiers should be shown on screen is perfectly valid.

I know I'll be tracking a moving target as the game progresses since some modifiers affect TERP and some affect AO, but at least I'll know which one to track.

[pasty11]

My maths is absolutely fine, if you have other numbers show your work.

I still dont understand where the confusion is, its a simple concept. AO how much you are doing, TERP x Modifiers = the maximum you can do. You dont have to adjust AO as that is all ready done.

Weapons AO = TRC 200 x 1.25 x 1.15 x 1.26 = 362.25 =~ 362

Could you explain what is confusing you as I simply cant what the problem is.

Also it looks like I could have been wrong about one thing, those bonuses which apply to TERP are also applying to the research output in that example, e.g. 1.25 from Democ, 1.15 from race and then 1.26 from location.

However the location bonuses does not apply to terp if the wiki is correct.

[pycco]

you are making something simple in to something very complicated, it says your total capacity with bonus included. if your total research "points" are more than your capacity you need to build more labs of needed type. how much each lab gives changes depending on the techs researched.

how scientists work is the highest lvl is the first applied then 50% of the next highest lvl is applied, only one location per type will give you a bonus.

[pasty11]

Its not me I explained it simply and then guys are like whaaa I still dont get it. Also what you said is no simpler.

[pasty11]

In the Pic from WIKI, only the big green bonuses apply to the TERP and output, the bonuses in the smaller font only apply to output. Its that simple.

However the number given for TERP is not adjusted to show how the GOV and Democ bonuses effect it,

Total Empire Research Potential (TERP)

TERP is the largest number of researchers in your empire that could be dedicated to any combination of the three major areas of research, if you built enough laboratories to employ them. This upper limit of researchers is determined by the size of your empire's population and the state of its culture. If you increase either or both of these, the TERP will rise. It is useless to build more laboratories than your research potential can handle, so knowing this number can be helpful when considering your investments.

TERP is modified by the green bonuses or red penalties shown directly beneath it, derived in the example above from the current form of Government and race. However, these modifications are not included in the TERP number. Thus the term Total is a bit misleading. Some players, therefore, find it useful to compute their empire's Adjusted Research Potential (ARP) (some call it Research Capability). This would be your empire's total research potential including the bonuses and penalties. The ARP is calculated as follows:

TERP x Bonus1 x Bonus2 ... = Adjusted Research Potential

thus, using the example above: 583 x 1.25 x 1.15 = 838

[Sieben_slith]

Thank you, pasty11. You have given me what I wanted, specifically which numbers I should compare in trying to determine how many research labs to build. I think our disagreements may have come about because we were both online at the same time and ended up cross-posting.

As for math, 583 x 1.25 x 1.15 is not the same as 583 x 1.40 (my definition of stacking), but if that's how it's calculated, so be it. It's still wrong. If you ever buy a car with a 10% discount from the manufacturer and a 5% discount from the dealer, I hope you'll remember that.

Thanks again, and I hope I have not offended you.

[Daeromont1]

Thanks for all the help, folks. Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I sometimes go days without being able to post, due to family obligations. I did end up losing my second game as well, due to my economy, but that was largely a matter of implementing measures to counter the situation too late. I also had made some serious mistakes in setting up some of my options. I am starting game 3 tonight....and can't wait.

[Andy06r]

Guys, your argument would be over by now if someone used a specific example.

Republic has a +25% research bonus. This is to capacity.

Total Potential - 300k
Republic - +25%
Actual potential (not shown) - 375k

Proof? Build 380k of labs and notice hoe your actual output is not being scaled down.

[Sieben_slith]

Oh, boy, another opinion. I asked a simple question: How do I determine when I have built enough labs to maximize my research output?

1. TRC => TERP (the manual)
2. AO => TERP (the manual)
3. AO => TERP x bonuses (pasty11, I think)
4. TRC => TERP x bonuses (Andy06r)

Do any of you actually know how this works?

[pycco]

ok again maybe you will understand this time, your total capacity is shown on the 4th research tab called research stations. it is based on population the bonuses are applied to the base rate. it straight up says total research capacity if the numbers are even you are not at max capacity if the total capacity is higher than the actual output you are at max possible. having a capacity that is significantly higher than the actual output will result in lost money due to too many labs.

what is so complicated about this? it's laid out in a easy to understand way.

[Andy06r]

I tested mine, and its easy to do...

1. Start game, pick republic, pick an average race
2. Build a high tech, energy lab, and star port.
3. Stick your scientist in there.
4. Calculate TERP * 1.25 (republic)
5. AO = Research * [ Total Labs / (TERP *1.25)] * scientist

There are two sets of bonses. #3 and #4 are both correct. Scientist / Location bonuses apply after TERP (#3), government/racial bonuses apply before TERP (#4).

In English, TERP is the total amount of scientists you have, if you will. I have 300,000 scientists. My government of republic boosts my scientist population to 375,000.

I have 360,000 "jobs" in labs. No loss. I have 400,000 "jobs" in labs, some loss.

Albert Einstein is a 10% energy scientist. He boosts the productivity of my scientists 10%.

Lets sat I have 140,000 energy scientists. AO is 140,000 * (380,000 / 400,000) * 1.1 = 146.3k

[Sieben_slith]

Yet another opinion:

5. TRC => AO (pycco). Looks like you would be chasing your tail with that one, if you didn't include TERP as a limit.

It would help if people would construct a logical argument using common terms: "research" and "jobs" are not defined in the game, unlike TRC, TERP and AO.

I'm inclined to go with #3, though if #4 is true I'll be spending a lot more than I need on research labs. I guess there is no simple answer to my question, or I haven't come up with the proper list of choices. I'll figure it out for myself.

[Andy06r]

ORIGINAL: Sieben Elfriend

Yet another opinion:

5. TRC => AO (pycco). Looks like you would be chasing your tail with that one, if you didn't include TERP as a limit.

It would help if people would construct a logical argument using common terms: "research" and "jobs" are not defined in the game, unlike TRC, TERP and AO.

I'm inclined to go with #3, though if #4 is true I'll be spending a lot more than I need on research labs. I guess there is no simple answer to my question, or I haven't come up with the proper list of choices. I'll figure it out for myself.

Literally yesterday, with a calculator, I did this by hand.

Spaceport, 60k each.
Energy, 120k. High tech, 120k. 420k total.

Blue number terp is 330k. 15% high tech scientist, 25% republic.

Effective TERP (not shown) is 330k * 1.25 = 413k

AO weapons is 59k (out of 60 labs).
AO energy is 177k (out of 180 labs).
AO high tech is 204k (out of 180 labs).

It all balances. Of government wasn't applied to the max, weapons and energy in particular would be a lot different.

[pasty11]

ORIGINAL: Andy06r

Guys, your argument would be over by now if someone used a specific example.

Republic has a +25% research bonus. This is to capacity.

Total Potential - 300k
Republic - +25%
Actual potential (not shown) - 375k

Proof? Build 380k of labs and notice hoe your actual output is not being scaled down.

This is exactly what I have been saying all along, did not think examples were necessary its so straight forward.

[pasty11]

ORIGINAL: Sieben Elfriend

Oh, boy, another opinion. I asked a simple question: How do I determine when I have built enough labs to maximize my research output?

1. TRC => TERP (the manual)
2. AO => TERP (the manual)
3. AO => TERP x bonuses (pasty11, I think)
4. TRC => TERP x bonuses (Andy06r)

Do any of you actually know how this works?

Wat? Mind blown. How on earth have you arrived here?
.


TERP = HOW MUCH RESEARCH IS POTENTIALLY POSSIBLE. EMPHASIS ON POTENTIAL. IF YOUR OUTPUT IS LESS THAN POTENTIAL BUILD MOAH LABS AS YOU HAVE BRAINIACS SITTING AROUND TWIDLING THUMBS. IF ACTUAL CAPACITY IS GREATER THAN POTENTIAL CAPACITY THEN YOU HAVE BUNSEN BURNERS WITH NO ONE TO USE THEM. YOU HAVE BUILT LABS BUT THERE ARE NO RESEARCHERS TO USE THEM.

SO YOU HAVE 3 CONCEPTS. THE MAXIMUM RESEARCH YOU CAN DO (TERP) HOW MUCH RESEARCH YOU ARE DOING (AO) AND HOW MUCH LAB INFRASTRUCTURE YOU HAVE BUILT.(TRC)

SOME BONUSES AFFECT THE TERP EG GOV TYPE AND SOME BONUSES EFFECT HOW MUCH OUTPUT YOU GET FROM CAPACITY E.G SCIENTISTS AND LOCATIONS.

[pasty11]

Also one moah thing, output can be above TERP. lets say TERP is 1000 points of labs. Then you have a scientist bonus that gives 10% out put for the scientists in those labs. You build 1000 points of capacity that gives you 1100 point of output,all of which you keep becuase you are getting that 100 points from scientists working harder not moah actual scientists, however if you build anymore capacity it will not supply anymore output.

[Sieben_slith]

Hey, pasty11, there's no need to shout. You're the one who has contradicted yourself in the thread. You're the one who insisted that TERP, as modified by the percentages listed directly below it, should be included on the screen. You're the one who showed calculations to the effect that AO should exceed TERP as modified by those factors. Now you say, well, AO actually already includes those modifications as well as all others (scientists, location-specific research bonus), as is clearly stated in the manual. Don't blame me if I'm confused because you can't construct a logical argument.

So, my take on all this: AO already includes all positive and negative effects on TRP. Therefore, you should build enough labs that AO => unmodified TERP. This is my case #2 above, one of the two contradictory statements in the manual. If I'm correct, someone could simply have said so. Now, you obviously don't need more TRP (labs) than TERP unless you have some serious negative modifiers to TRP in the form of bad scientists or leaders.

Note: => is an arithmetic expression meaning "equal to or greater than".

[pasty11]

Wat, you are so far off. I just re read the thread and I have been entirely consistent, it only seems that way to you because you seem unable to grasp some simple concepts.

Also how is insisting that TERP should show the numbers below it e.g Adjusted or actual TERP wrong/contradictory? Is english your first language?

Have you read the posts by Andy, he clearly shows that the bolded gov/race bonuses effect the TERP,

Blue number terp is 330k. 15% high tech scientist, 25% republic.

Effective TERP (not shown) is 330k * 1.25 = 413k

so yea it would seem common sense to show us the adjusted number, you know the actual effective TERP. The only thing I am unclear about is how the bolded numbers effect output along with the specific output only bonuses from loc and scientist. Some sources say they do some say they dont. I am pretty sure but not 100% that they dont.