Large Liner Artwork

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Quick question, how did you all arrive at the passenger values for these and other liners. I know they packed the soldiers in like sardines but did you all find some numbers or just extrapolate something?

From Troop Ships of World War II by Roland W. Charles (April, 1947). I note that the passenger values are much higher than generally used in AE.

[oldman45]

Another book gets added to the list. Thanks Don.

[oldman45]

For those that want this book for themselves and are cheap like me, you can go to this website where it is a PDF file.

Troopships of WWII

[Don Bowen]

You'll like it. It's also available here, as a PDF download: http://www.merriam-press.com/search.asp ... troopships

Get whichever is cheaper!

[Buck Beach]

Another book you may or may not have is "Ships of the Esso Fleet in World War II". It is available at Amazon or Google Books or you can read it free at http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000593497.

Lots of great info such as: wartime oil transportation record (voyages/cargo and # of barrels per year; sister ships; armament; history, and more.

Buck

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
From Troop Ships of World War II by Roland W. Charles (April, 1947). I note that the passenger values are much higher than generally used in AE.

Remember back when we were fiddling with this? The ‘passenger’ values are the number of bodies that could be squeezed on-board. Kinda like on a slave-ship. But LCUs can’t be broken down into separate bodies and gear; they are a combination of both. So to move an LCU, the troop/cargo space needs to be abstracted to some extent.

The Queens could carry almost an entire division; but only the bodies. The rest of the division (equipment, etc.) required a convoy in its own right. So what to do, what to do ?? [8D][8D]

Ciao. John

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
From Troop Ships of World War II by Roland W. Charles (April, 1947). I note that the passenger values are much higher than generally used in AE.

Remember back when we were fiddling with this? The ‘passenger’ values are the number of bodies that could be squeezed on-board. Kinda like on a slave-ship. But LCUs can’t be broken down into separate bodies and gear; they are a combination of both. So to move an LCU, the troop/cargo space needs to be abstracted to some extent.

The Queens could carry almost an entire division; but only the bodies. The rest of the division (equipment, etc.) required a convoy in its own right. So what to do, what to do ?? [8D][8D]

Ciao. John

I vaguely remember... I know that there are a lot of factors affecting troop capacity, not the least of which is the variance in our TOEs and historical troop counts. Anyway, I've always relied on your data for ships, I'm just the OOB fanatic.

My Granddaughter will be here tonight for a week-long stay, and the guys with the sledgehammers will be here the Monday after she leaves to demolish the kitchen. I'll be pretty much offline until mid-July! On the good side, our various neighbors have adopted us as dinner guests for part of the time and we'll probably make a three-day trip or two.

Y'all don't do anything important until next month.

Don

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
On the good side, our various neighbors have adopted us as dinner guests for part of the time and we'll probably make a three-day trip or two.
Don

Hey, I can send tham a serious chicken enchilada recipe, with some America Sud 'Spanish rice' to go with. Just saying ... ya'll being Texicans and all ...

Ciao John

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

"From Troop Ships of World War II by Roland W. Charles (April, 1947). I note that the passenger values are much higher than generally used in AE."




[/quote]


My dad's entire infantry division,(the 29th) went to Europe on one ship, the Queen Mary, one trip..

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: m10bob
My dad's entire infantry division,(the 29th) went to Europe on one ship, the Queen Mary, one trip..

Yes. But it was just the bodies, wasn't it? She didn't haul the trucks, jeeps, mortars, AT guns, artillery, prime movers, engineer equipment, scout cars, hospitals, or the thousand and one other things that make a division into a fighting unit, as opposed to a collection of bodies, did she? Of course not.

A certain amount of abstraction is necessary. If this is unacceptable, then the editor is freely available to all.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

" the guys with the sledgehammers will be here the Monday after she leaves to demolish the kitchen. I'll be pretty much offline until mid-July! On the good side, our various neighbors have adopted us as dinner guests for part of the time and we'll probably make a three-day trip or two."

This is it for me for a while. See y'all in mid or late July.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: m10bob
My dad's entire infantry division,(the 29th) went to Europe on one ship, the Queen Mary, one trip..

Yes. But it was just the bodies, wasn't it? She didn't haul the trucks, jeeps, mortars, AT guns, artillery, prime movers, engineer equipment, scout cars, hospitals, or the thousand and one other things that make a division into a fighting unit, as opposed to a collection of bodies, did she? Of course not.

A certain amount of abstraction is necessary. If this is unacceptable, then the editor is freely available to all.

Very valid point...BTW, I believe my dad in laws' 1st ship, the Coast Guard ship Wakefield took the 2nd Marine division to Wellington, (one ship, one trip)..
The Wakefield was the not so old former passenger liner Manhattan, once the record speed holder of the worlds passenger liners.

Used to know a website that listed several wartime trips of divisions crossing by one ship.but as you mentioned likely did not include the support nor equipment..

Speaking of cans of worms..at least one American infantry division did go into theatre without any of its' artillery whatsoever, and did not have it for approx a year,(IIRC)..WITP (all versions),has given that unit the benefit if its' artillery since day one,however..

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: m10bob
Speaking of cans of worms..at least one American infantry division did go into theatre without any of its' artillery whatsoever, and did not have it for approx a year,(IIRC)..WITP (all versions),has given that unit the benefit if its' artillery since day one,however..

Is that the one about which Gen Kenney said "the artillery, in this theater, flys"? Was it me, I would have had that 'someone walking on my grave' sensation. Can't imagine a grunt being all that comfy without there being some guns in the neighborhood. [8D]

Looking at old notes, the paradigm was to set up LCUs and carriage capacity so that a typical TransRon or TransDiv could lift what it did for an amphib assault. The typical TransDiv was 3 APs and an AK and was devised to land a Regimental task group. Some TransDivs reversed the contents (3 AKs and an AP) if they were humping heavy units (Defense Bns, SpecWeaps Bns, Arty Bns, and the like).

After we got that straight, everything else was a feed-forward or feed-backward, so that things matched up according to unit posture and transport mission. The 'intent' is that 'x' ships do not participate in amphib ops, but that has long since been gamed into the dumpster. Nevertheless, that is how it's supposed to work and that's the paradigm that forms the basis of troop/cargo capacity. [;)]

Hope this helps explain why certain things are the way they are. [:)] Ciao. John

[oldman45]

Actually it makes a lot of sense John. The problem for "us" is trying to do the same thing when adding new liners. The troop side I am good with making a WAG, my problem is converting the cargo cap of the liners into something meaningful while trying to follow the examples in the game.