Turnaround? Lowpe (J) vs Tiemanj (A) Stock

[Spidery]

Ok, last plane question for a while.

I have been looking at the Patsy as a plane to accelerate. How useful do you think having the ability to make such long range strikes would be late in the game?

It has such a small payload and poor armament that it is questionably useful. You are unlikely to be able to launch long range Naval attacks because there will always be something closer. The Allied should have AA and day/night CAP over everything important. On the other hand, its presence may force the Allies to assign forces to protect bases they otherwise wouldn't need to.

It may be useful in ASW, Naval Search, or Recon roles.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Spidery
On the other hand, its presence may force the Allies to assign forces to protect bases they otherwise wouldn't need to.

Definitely a good thing

It may be useful in ASW, Naval Search, or Recon roles.

Jury is still out on the recon roles. Despite using camera equipped Sonia's they never take pictures...

Long range ASW is a nice idea...

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Dec 20, 1942

Quiet mostly: allied bombing of Xmas Island Pacific and Burma. IJA bombed Port Moresby to no opposition again. It looks like Allies unwilling to fight for Port Moresby. Invasion forces are on ships headed there...

Wonder Planes:

My thinking here has changed a little bit - well a lot. Since this game needs to go the distance, I need to plan accordingly.

I soon should have lots of factories that I can convert over to whatever, and I am thinking about the wonder planes. The Ki-201 Karyu is great-- I have used it in the Downfall scenario and it literally can change the air war. However it is available in March of 1946. And the engine is Jan 1946. Ugh.[:(]

What would I need to invest in this frame to get her in mid 45? First Quarter 45? What would it take, considering research will start in Jan 1943. Spare no expense!

I'm not sure getting that frame in mid-1945 is all that feasible, especially at this point in your game... 08/1945 or later, perhaps...

Having some experience trying to get this one going before, it's easy enough to get the engines R&D'd. In my AI game, I only had a few factories working on that. By late 1943, it's almost to production, however the Ki-201 still has no fully repaired factories.

As for its efficacy... To me, the stats make it a bomber killer more than anything else. Obviously you can't force your CAP to avoid sweeps, but I'd prefer to use other models to fight sweeps (Ki-100, Frank a/r, George, etc.) while concentrating any Ki-201 units above industrial targets. Including some at night, probably...

[ny59giants]

Looking at this from an Allied players point of view.
1) While you are investing in these DAY fighters, what about night fighters to defend against the B-29s destroying the factories??
2) Like in real estate, location, location, location. Where are these precious factories going to be located and are they at bases that you can easily defend or the B-29s cannot easily reach??

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Looking at this from an Allied players point of view.
1) While you are investing in these DAY fighters, what about night fighters to defend against the B-29s destroying the factories??
2) Like in real estate, location, location, location. Where are these precious factories going to be located and are they at bases that you can easily defend or the B-29s cannot easily reach??

1) If the P-47/51 sweep monster is massacring daytime CAP and rendering it ineffective, why would the B-29s even need to bother with night-time attacks?
2) In all fairness, by this point in the game, nowhere is really safe from the Allies. Northern Honshu is about as safe as it gets.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Looking at this from an Allied players point of view.
1) While you are investing in these DAY fighters, what about night fighters to defend against the B-29s destroying the factories??
2) Like in real estate, location, location, location. Where are these precious factories going to be located and are they at bases that you can easily defend or the B-29s cannot easily reach??

Good points. I have gone whole hog in night fighter r & d, 44 repaired factories, and 258 repairing and I am debating adding more. Big emphasis on Irving, Frances, Peg, Nick and lesser on Dinah. I plan on filling out all 22 squadrons that can convert to NF and having healthy, healthy pools. In addition, Tracom pilots will be going to the NF squadrons (that is what I am saving them for).

Factory locations haven't been chosen yet, but Tokyo and Osaka are high on the list as being home to a huge percentage of HI industrial production and are must protect bases.

[Lowpe]

In my Downfall games, I am trying to get my one and only sentai of 201s to where they can conduct an offensive sweep...and if I get motivated and run some turns I will have the 202s fairly soon.

In thinking about it, and because to my knowledge they haven't been used, I am leaning to going after the Shusei as being able to maybe live long enough to actually get it up and flying...at least when I am getting pounded daily in 45 it will give me a ray of hope.

[Lowpe]

Dec 21, 1942

Pretty quiet bombing wise, Port Moresby attacks get scrubbed for weather, some Allied bombing of Burma, and unfortunately a Lightning sweep catches a squadron of A6M2 on CAP protecting some destroyers in the Marshalls. No Lightnings lost, and 6 Zeroes downed on the replay but the real number is 15. Shame, they were good pilots, 2 KIA and 6 WIA.

The Judy recon can scout the Allies in the Marshalls and not get shot down, where the Jakes can't.

The Ki 61 Ia factories are all repaired. The production will be accelerated to Jan 43, and some production of this plane will be made while the remainder will jump far down the line to the Ki-100 I. I will make a few o f the 61 Ia for rear area bomber defense (probably just one sentai worth).

After the Tony, the next plane up will be the carrier planes next generation: A6M5c, Judy and Jill. Can't wait...

I have started swarming small task forces of two xaks moving resources from Hokkaido to Ominato and adjacent ports. No escorts, other than planes and ASW task forces. I want to get a fair amount moved before better torpedoes come on line.

Loading troops for the northern Oz adventure, bombarded Rangoon where 2 full divisions and 3 full regiments of British troops are trapped. Supply is limiting my troops there, but more is on the way.

[Spidery]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

In my Downfall games, I am trying to get my one and only sentai of 201s to where they can conduct an offensive sweep...and if I get motivated and run some turns I will have the 202s fairly soon.

In thinking about it, and because to my knowledge they haven't been used, I am leaning to going after the Shusei as being able to maybe live long enough to actually get it up and flying...at least when I am getting pounded daily in 45 it will give me a ray of hope.

Did a quick sandbox test of 49 Ki-202 and 49 Ki-201 defending against late war liberators on city attack at 10000 feet.

The Ki-201 shot down 24 for the loss of 3. The Ki-201 shot down 8 for the loss of 17 (shot down may be a misnomer since some losses were from ramming). The Ki-201 group had 22 damaged planes with an average repair time of 5 days, the Ki-202 group 4 damaged planes with average repair of 2 days. One thing I noticed was Ki-202 running low on fuel and then ramming. The Ki-202 just seems too vulnerable to be effective.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Spidery

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

In my Downfall games, I am trying to get my one and only sentai of 201s to where they can conduct an offensive sweep...and if I get motivated and run some turns I will have the 202s fairly soon.

In thinking about it, and because to my knowledge they haven't been used, I am leaning to going after the Shusei as being able to maybe live long enough to actually get it up and flying...at least when I am getting pounded daily in 45 it will give me a ray of hope.

Did a quick sandbox test of 49 Ki-202 and 49 Ki-201 defending against late war liberators on city attack at 10000 feet.

The Ki-201 shot down 24 for the loss of 3. The Ki-201 shot down 8 for the loss of 17 (shot down may be a misnomer since some losses were from ramming).

I assume you mean the Ki-202 shot down 8 for the loss of 17?

Nevertheless, very interesting results.

The two most interesting points are the kill:loss ratios and the repair time. The 201 performed exceptionally well, but it's now at 50% strength for the next five days, five days in which the planes either need to be moved out of harms way, or five days in which they spend exposed to having Allied heavy bombers destroy them on the ground.

The 202 lost far more than they shot down (though when you account for VP's, it's only a net loss of 1 VP for Japan), but the group will be ready for action in just two days.

The 202's tendancy to ram may not be, by default, a bad thing. By 1945, if you're trading a single engine plane (worth 1 VP) for a Allied heavy bomber (worth 2 VPs), it's a win. The pilot isn't really a loss, as you'd have the dedicated training squadrons churning out pilots en-masse, along with what pilots are in the reserve pool.

The Ki-202 just seems too vulnerable to be effective.

I disagree, from a VP standpoint, it's a net loss of only a single VP for Japan. There will be planes with far worse exchange rates than the 202 by 1945.

The Ki-201 is just too maintence heavy to be effective. You've half of them sitting on the runway needing repairs and waiting to be wiped out by a big Allied bomber raid.

I think your results suggest you'd need to really support the Ki-201, either using the 202 along side it, or with some other airframe. The 201 and 202 seem to compliment each other well: the 202 more or less breaks even in the air offering constant opposition; the 201 turns up and completely wipes the floor with the Allies before disapearing for a week to repair.

[obvert]

Looking at all of your thoughts on fighters above. Think about them, prepare for them, but make sure you get the the A7M2, the J2M5, the Ki-100, the Ki-83 and the Ki-84r in numbers. These will be your mainstays. Try for the J7M. All of the others will only be able to be used if you make it far enough to get them in late 45. I found that I did fairly well, had a good number of Ki-83 and Ki-84r, plus the A7M2 in the gazzilions, but the P-47N can slice through any of them in early to mid-45. Numbers are your only real defense.

Also, if the Allied get in range of your airframe factories it won't matter what you've been planning for 3-4 years. I had the J7M all ready to go and the day it started manufacture the factory was hit by B-29s!!! [:-] [:D]

The first step is making sure the Allies don't get the Marianas early, don't get into the Kuriles, don't get big Chinese bases connected to supply early. Once one of those things happens it's just a matter of time before you start suffering. You can slow it all down, but you can't stop the B-29s. You need to make sure a ton of AA, upgraded, is in Osaka and Tokyo, that you have EVERY NF unit available in the HI once the B-29s are in range, and you have to bleed the monsters over months.

[Spidery]

I disagree, from a VP standpoint, it's a net loss of only a single VP for Japan. There will be planes with far worse exchange rates than the 202 by 1945.

Good point on the VP. In fact it is better than that because any VP loss better that 2::1 delays auto victory.

Agreed with the Ki-201 you would need to immediately extract and then not commit again for a week or more.

[Lowpe]

I am not doing anything for the Ki-83. Is it really a must have fighter: can't I get by focusing heavily on the Ki-100, the Sam, the Ki-84r, the J2M5?

Spidery: Thanks for the sandbox. I would like to see the 202 versus a Mustang sweep. That is where the 202 might shine, I know it is not a bomber killer except for ramming. Also, they are never likely to be flying alone, there will always be other fighters with them, and this may increase their abilities (by avoiding the dive bonus) or reduce their abilities.

There are alternative bomber killers available to Japan late game during the day...the thing about the 201 is that it is good against fighters and bombers...

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The 202 lost far more than they shot down (though when you account for VP's, it's only a net loss of 1 VP for Japan), but the group will be ready for action in just two days.

Heck, in two days you have burnt thru your planes in reserve and are basically at half strength. 34-12=22 gone. Three days if you had a week off. Not to mention the morale hit losing all those planes gives you (unless maybe ramming improves unit morale?).

Losses will be heavy, but can the 202 hold its own against fighters? That is the question...

The 202 is an anti-fighter plane. Maybe. In effect, it really reminds me of the KAI Dinah to some degree fast, no armor.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am not doing anything for the Ki-83. Is it really a must have fighter: can't I get by focusing heavily on the Ki-100, the Sam, the Ki-84r, the J2M5?

Spidery: Thanks for the sandbox. I would like to see the 202 versus a Mustang sweep. That is where the 202 might shine, I know it is not a bomber killer except for ramming. Also, they are never likely to be flying alone, there will always be other fighters with them, and this may increase their abilities (by avoiding the dive bonus) or reduce their abilities.

There are alternative bomber killers available to Japan late game during the day...the thing about the 201 is that it is good against fighters and bombers...

I think the Ki-83 falls into the "get this if you can" category. It's really nice. In terms of end game fighters, I would prioritize it just behind the Frank and Tony. And the Ki-201 after the Ki-83. I said "get this if you can", but unless you're planning something really strange, I think every Japan player can work towards the Ki-83.

I didn't mention the IJNAF planes because there really isn't an equivalent to these monsters for them, unless you count the Shinden (plus there's the matter of air groups). I suppose the Shinden is perhaps comparable in role to the Ki-83 and Ki-201: extremely fast (for IJ aircraft) with extremely scary guns on the CL mounts.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The 202 lost far more than they shot down (though when you account for VP's, it's only a net loss of 1 VP for Japan), but the group will be ready for action in just two days.

Losses will be heavy, but can the 202 hold its own against fighters? That is the question...

That's the real test. Almost every Japanese plane will do badly attacking 4E's, let alone those with little durability and no armour. If the 202 can do well against the P47/51 sweeps, then there might be some merit in it.

[Lowpe]

Misc ramblings:

Still debating upon what to shoot for endgame 202 vs 201. I will go one or the other not both. Leaning towards the 202...for no very good reason.[:)]

Sent my turn around and forgot to LRCAP some akes near Tavoy...oops.[:(]

I have 3 more divisions heading to Rangoon, plus 5 ART, and one more ENG. Should be plenty to take the city. I dropped a sentai of Tojo IIa off at Pegu some will fly CAP and others will sweep Rangoon where there are a dozen Sea Hurricanes. Allies starting to show some life with ground troops in northern Burma -- moving on a tank regiment of the road near Akyab.

The Oz adventure is close to starting, it will see KAI Dinah sweeps of Wyndham which now has 8 fighters.

Other r&d moves: I am thinking about increasing the KAId Nick nightfighter r&d program. I have three factories going after Irving, but will only be able to field 2 squadrons for most of 1943. However, there are plenty of IJA groups that can upgrade to the Nick now...

I have managed to get several groups upgraded to the Tojo IIa and will probably turn off production as I now have 30 in the pools.

I don't have any really good IJA fighter to produce for quite a while...the KAI Dinah is an experiment, the Nick KAIa and KAIb models I am happy with (30 of each), Oscar IIa @ 30 is enough. The Tojo IIc is at 8/43 with 5 size 30 factories running and the Oscar IV is even later but with a lot of factories. The Ki-61 comes on stream next month, but it isn't very good...

Formed the Combined 8th SNLF CD unit at Iwo today. Will probably end up putting at Guam...I definitely don't want to put this unit where it can be bypassed, and Guam is important.

[Lowpe]

One of the benefits of playing the AI, is that you can load up the opposition![:D]

After 8 days of constant night bombing raids, at the low end of the moonlight scale, the B29s are clearly beasts. Flying from Guam and near bye, they have hit lots of bases, and no matter the amount of night fighters always manage to get some hits which starts fires. Without night fighters they can be totally devastating even at half loads.

The night fighters they are flying into are Denko, Irving (not the SA), Judy, Myrt, Randy, and I have recently upgraded a few squadrons to Dinah and KAId Nicks to get more squadrons up and fighting.

Only the Denko squadron, avg exp 70 (the best I have), has any credited kills with 2. The rest of the damage info you can see from the screen below.

The B29 in Downfall have a production rate of 40 and replacement rate of 12 and there are 29 or so bomber groups.

Conclusions: Keep the Allies 40 hexes away![:D]You need your most experienced pilots in night fighters and it is a good place for them since losses are low. You need big guns to damage the planes. You need as many night fighters as you can have hunt to find anything that can upgrade into a NF.

Not quite rocket science...but there you have it.[:)]

Coming up experiments with the Ki 109 I Peggy -- big gun goodness![:D]

Is there a screen on tracker that tracks day by day damage done to the industry of a city?

[obvert]

The use of B-29s by the AI is going to give you no idea how they will work in the hands of a good human. The AI is relentless, doesn't stand them down, but more importantly will not prioritize targets that a PBEM opponent would, consistently. They work best massed, with 3-5 days rest between missions.

In answer to your Ki-83 question, yes, it's a MUST have. The Ki-83 has wicked range and will fight evenly or better with anything.

The Ki-100 pretty much sucks, yet I say it's a must as it's all you can get at service 1 that has a chance in late war. With Symon's air frame recalculations it gets a boost to closer to what it was in the war, but in stock it's slower than a Tojo. Good for lower level CAP but will suffer against any Allied fighter.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: obvert

The use of B-29s by the AI is going to give you no idea how they will work in the hands of a good human. The AI is relentless, doesn't stand them down, but more importantly will not prioritize targets that a PBEM opponent would, consistently. They work best massed, with 3-5 days rest between missions.

In answer to your Ki-83 question, yes, it's a MUST have. The Ki-83 has wicked range and will fight evenly or better with anything.

The Ki-100 pretty much sucks, yet I say it's a must as it's all you can get at service 1 that has a chance in late war. With Symon's air frame recalculations it gets a boost to closer to what it was in the war, but in stock it's slower than a Tojo. Good for lower level CAP but will suffer against any Allied fighter.

Thanks, all very good points. So far, I can only find 22 squadrons that become night fighters, and then some of them get taken out of service late war...which means you can try to protect maybe 3 areas...if that. A pretty bleak picture.