An interesting article about the Russian navy

[chesmart]

http://englishrussia.com/2012/03/30/ill ... kuznetsov/

[Gunner98]

Every time it (or any major Russian ship) moves it's accompanied by a fleet tug. Major breakdowns are apparently routine. Its a good thing the game doesn't model this reality or half the Cold War scenarios would be a tad boring [:D]

B

[Dimitris]

I recall seeing tugs in western deployments too. This stereotype has been beaten to a pulp.

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

Every time it (or any major Russian ship) moves it's accompanied by a fleet tug. Major breakdowns are apparently routine. Its a good thing the game doesn't model this reality or half the Cold War scenarios would be a tad boring [:D]

B

How many Soviet ships broke down during any of the Okean or Summer ex exercises?

Hold back with the jingoism, please.

[Gunner98]

Point! HMCS Protector in March of this year - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... -1.2573437

B

[Gunner98]

No jingoism here.

[NakedWeasel]

The French Aircraft Carrier Charles de Gaulle, had all kinds of mechanical problems- at least in the sea trials. She lost an entire screw.
But I'd say that the RFN's ships are generally in a perpetual state of disrepair. It is what it is. Lipstick on a pig, is still a pig wearing lipstick.

[mikmykWS]

It would be interesting to see the maintenance records of all fleets. Guessing there would be a few surprises in there.

As far as the Kusnetsov having a tug along surely tells a tale but at the end of the day it costs to keep a ship in operation. If it was a true junk-pile it would have been retired by now. The Russian Navy has a lot of new stuff it needs to pay for.

Mike

[ExNusquam]

As far as the Kusnetsov having a tug along surely tells a tale but at the end of the day it costs to keep a ship in operation. If it was a true junk-pile it would have been retired by now. The Russian Navy has a lot of new stuff it needs to pay for.

Several defense writers argue that the Kusnetsov and several other small carriers operate mostly as status symbols.

See: http://smokeandstir.org/2013/12/29/why- ... t-carrier/
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/f3f52d299588

[NakedWeasel]

I was a sailor aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln back in the day, and knowing what I know about how hard we worked to keep that ship in fighting shape with constant maintenance, cleaning, upgrades, inspections, etc- if all that is not going on at a constant pace, your fleet tug is more than a "just-in-case" asset- it's a necessity. I'd be quite fearful of combat at sea, if I was a Russian sailor working aboard their HVU's such as Kuznetsov, and Pyotr Velikiy. Combat is combat, and breaking things and killing people is all part of it- and that said, I'd rather be tasked to do it aboard a modern, well-maintained vessel, as opposed to one that just barely gets by. Game it out in CMANO, and you'll see. A USN CSG at full strength versus it's Russian counterpart in a blue water engagement has a tendency to end very badly for the Russians every time.
Is it just a game? Yep. Is it a decent model of real life? Pretty close to it, and getting better.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Bear is toothless, and lacking claws- but if she ever intends on taking on the Eagle again, she'll need a good deal more than an 1980's workout montage video... [8D]

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: NakedWeasel

I was a sailor aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln back in the day, and knowing what I know about how hard we worked to keep that ship in fighting shape with constant maintenance, cleaning, upgrades, inspections, etc- if all that is not going on at a constant pace, your fleet tug is more than a "just-in-case" asset- it's a necessity. I'd be quite fearful of combat at sea, if I was a Russian sailor working aboard their HVU's such as Kuznetsov, and Pyotr Velikiy. Combat is combat, and breaking things and killing people is all part of it- and that said, I'd rather be tasked to do it aboard a modern, well-maintained vessel, as opposed to one that just barely gets by. Game it out in CMANO, and you'll see. A USN CSG at full strength versus it's Russian counterpart in a blue water engagement has a tendency to end very badly for the Russians every time.
Is it just a game? Yep. Is it a decent model of real life? Pretty close to it, and getting better.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Bear is toothless, and lacking claws- but if she ever intends on taking on the Eagle again, she'll need a good deal more than an 1980's workout montage video... [8D]

Nobody said its a montage video.

We work with folks who are active now that don't sound like you do.

Mike

[NakedWeasel]

Hmm well I was being a little tongue-in-cheek with my post, as I am frequently apt to do. Returning to my coffee in 3, 2, 1 ...

[AlmightyTallest]

Well, if any of the info in this article is true, it certainly isn't good for morale on a ship, any ship, from any country.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/f3f52d299588

I was surprised about the part of the Kusnetsov having only around 50 latrines, of which half are disabled, so something like 25 latrines for 2,000 sailors.

I think there were over 400 commodes on a U.S. Carrier by contrast.

I thought it was amusing the Kusnetsov was tracked by her oil spill though:

http://www.emsa.europa.eu/csn-menu/csn-service/oil-spill-detection-examples/286-oil-spill-detection-examples/1872-oil-spill-detection-examples-admiral-kuznetsov-february-2009.html

[mikmykWS]

Well that ain't good.

Mike

[thewood1]

The only thing many of these "light" carriers are good for is getting a culture of naval aviation started. A few of these navies have the history of having carriers. But their naval aviation has never had to put their carriers and aviation crews through any thing beyond training. And even that training is very low tempo.

[Feltan]

I think when the OP source document is a Russian publication, that is corroborated by other sources, the claims of jingoism are unfounded.  By any reasonable measure, this ship is problematic.  It's internal systems (heating and water) can't sustain the crew -- and even the Russians admit it.
 
Regards,
Feltan

[Dimitris]

My objection was not to the current reported state, but with:

1) The implication that only Russian forces use tugs on deployments or face maintenance problems (ISTR a recent report referenced on ID which paints a pretty bleak picture of the USN non-carrier surface fleet, for example).

2) The completely unfounded extrapolation to the Cold War era. Back then there was money. From the early 90s until very recently, the Russian navy had to make do with funds that wouldn't support a local highschool beach trip.

[Feltan]

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

My objection was not to the current reported state, but with:

1) The implication that only Russian forces use tugs on deployments or face maintenance problems (ISTR a recent report referenced on ID which paints a pretty bleak picture of the USN non-carrier surface fleet, for example).

2) The completely unfounded extrapolation to the Cold War era. Back then there was money. From the early 90s until very recently, the Russian navy had to make do with funds that wouldn't support a local highschool beach trip.

Quite so, thank you for clarifying.

Regards,
Feltan

[NakedWeasel]

Just for giggles I do have a modern, US CSG vs RFN CSG test scenario that demonstrates to some extent what happens when "East Meets West" in the North Sea. I started with blh42's imported Carrier Group Twelve (excellent addon!) the only major change/addition I gave the USN was adding a Seawolf and Virginia SSN to the group- (CSGs typically deploy with SSN's, so it's not really that far-fetched.) Now, for the Russians, I had to turn up the cheat matrix to full, just to give the Russians a fighting chance. I filled out the Kutz with Flankers, AND Fulcrums. One third AAW, and ASuW AC ready and waiting to pounce. I created a massive Cold War-style battle group with a Slava, a Kirov, 2X Sovremenny, 2X Udaloy, a late-model Krivak, and a Neustrashimy. Additionally, I added a Severodvinsk and Oscar II to the RFN CSG formation. Finally, just to be "sporting" about it, I provided the Russians with a buttload of land-based air assets for surveillance and AEW, and even a full squadron of Backfires and Su-34's in the hopes it would make me sweat a little. Naturally, one can see that the virtual Russian side has far more going for it, than they do in real life.

Nope. No sweat. Not even a little. In AI versus AI games, (I prefer to sit back and watch the madness) the end result will be a possible single Krypton hit against the CVN and/or an escort about 50% of the time. The entire Russian force is thoroughly destroyed resulting in game defeat 99.999% of the time. I say 99.99999% because there is a very small possibility for one of those big ASM's to leak through. But in more than a dozen games, the Russian side has never sunk the US CVN. (Their victory condition.)

As far as CMANO is concerned, the fault is probably not so much with the Kuznetsov- in the game she is new, fully-loaded, armed, and manned- as are her escorts. (To be fair, so are the American ships.) She doesn't launch half-loaded Flankers for CAP. She can be loaded with three times as many aircraft as the real-life Kuznetsov deploys with. Her screws turn for 29 knots, she doesn't leak fuel for thousands of miles in her wake. All of her virtual toilets work. Her pilots are paid and and well cared for.

The victory for the virtual USN lies with the more than ample capabilities of the 12 AIM-120D-equipped FA/18E's that I have assigned for AAW BARCAP. Though there are never more than four patroling at 200nm's from the carrier, they viciously man-handle any threat they find, and typically escape AAW engagements like NINJA-PIRATES. Whatever aircraft or missile threats they do not completely brutalize, is easy pickins for the CSG's SAMs. The other key to the USN's victory is the heavy use of the JSOW BROACH combined with AARGM's. If I change it up, and give the alpha strike Harpoons or SLAM-ERs with HARMs, the RFN group may shoot them all down, and kill up to half of the strikers- but eventually the two battle groups will close to secondary weapon range, and the US CSG blows the Russians out of the water with hundreds of combined RGM-84, and ESSMs. The Russian survivors, if any, are finished off with 127mm fire. Interestingly, the two US SSN's never fire a single torp- even within spitting range of the RFN fleet. That said, the Russian subs let loose with a massive volley of ASM's every time. The combined shock and awe effect of all those Sunburn, Shipwreck, Kitchen, Oniks and Krypton ASMs suddenly bearing down on the CVN does make me sit up and take notice, but typically all are shot down- even at less than 20 miles. [X(]

Maybe it's the model. Maybe it's a fault in the game engine. But it's kinda crazy to watch the most powerful sea-denial force the US has ever faced, get fully trounced like a bunch of newborn kittens every single match.

I'll provide said scenario to anyone who wants a go upon request. Peace out.

[AlmightyTallest]

I'm willing to bet if you switched to the Russian side in your scenario and used your human intelligence, you'd be able to defeat the U.S. CVBG.

Part of the problem might be the AI, and other times it's also our own setup of the Scenario.

Does the AI in your scenario attempt to have all missiles strike the CVBG at the same time to get some through?