An interesting article about the Russian navy

[RoryAndersonCDT]

ORIGINAL: NakedWeasel
I'll provide said scenario to anyone who wants a go upon request. Peace out.

I want to sink the russian navy with ease!

[mikmykWS]

I like to think that the point of our AI isn't to beat a human but to entertain them by presenting a challenge and/or decisions. We provide the tools in the editor for the player to script the AI to do just that. If it doesn't happen it doesn't necessarily mean that its the tools or AI that is at fault.[:)]

Mike

[Feltan]

ORIGINAL: NakedWeasel

Just for giggles I do have a modern, US CSG vs RFN CSG test scenario that demonstrates to some extent what happens when "East Meets West" in the North Sea. I started with blh42's imported Carrier Group Twelve (excellent addon!) the only major change/addition I gave the USN was adding a Seawolf and Virginia SSN to the group- (CSGs typically deploy with SSN's, so it's not really that far-fetched.) Now, for the Russians, I had to turn up the cheat matrix to full, just to give the Russians a fighting chance. I filled out the Kutz with Flankers, AND Fulcrums. One third AAW, and ASuW AC ready and waiting to pounce. I created a massive Cold War-style battle group with a Slava, a Kirov, 2X Sovremenny, 2X Udaloy, a late-model Krivak, and a Neustrashimy. Additionally, I added a Severodvinsk and Oscar II to the RFN CSG formation. Finally, just to be "sporting" about it, I provided the Russians with a buttload of land-based air assets for surveillance and AEW, and even a full squadron of Backfires and Su-34's in the hopes it would make me sweat a little. Naturally, one can see that the virtual Russian side has far more going for it, than they do in real life.

Nope. No sweat. Not even a little. In AI versus AI games, (I prefer to sit back and watch the madness) the end result will be a possible single Krypton hit against the CVN and/or an escort about 50% of the time. The entire Russian force is thoroughly destroyed resulting in game defeat 99.999% of the time. I say 99.99999% because there is a very small possibility for one of those big ASM's to leak through. But in more than a dozen games, the Russian side has never sunk the US CVN. (Their victory condition.)

As far as CMANO is concerned, the fault is probably not so much with the Kuznetsov- in the game she is new, fully-loaded, armed, and manned- as are her escorts. (To be fair, so are the American ships.) She doesn't launch half-loaded Flankers for CAP. She can be loaded with three times as many aircraft as the real-life Kuznetsov deploys with. Her screws turn for 29 knots, she doesn't leak fuel for thousands of miles in her wake. All of her virtual toilets work. Her pilots are paid and and well cared for.

The victory for the virtual USN lies with the more than ample capabilities of the 12 AIM-120D-equipped FA/18E's that I have assigned for AAW BARCAP. Though there are never more than four patroling at 200nm's from the carrier, they viciously man-handle any threat they find, and typically escape AAW engagements like NINJA-PIRATES. Whatever aircraft or missile threats they do not completely brutalize, is easy pickins for the CSG's SAMs. The other key to the USN's victory is the heavy use of the JSOW BROACH combined with AARGM's. If I change it up, and give the alpha strike Harpoons or SLAM-ERs with HARMs, the RFN group may shoot them all down, and kill up to half of the strikers- but eventually the two battle groups will close to secondary weapon range, and the US CSG blows the Russians out of the water with hundreds of combined RGM-84, and ESSMs. The Russian survivors, if any, are finished off with 127mm fire. Interestingly, the two US SSN's never fire a single torp- even within spitting range of the RFN fleet. That said, the Russian subs let loose with a massive volley of ASM's every time. The combined shock and awe effect of all those Sunburn, Shipwreck, Kitchen, Oniks and Krypton ASMs suddenly bearing down on the CVN does make me sit up and take notice, but typically all are shot down- even at less than 20 miles. [X(]

Maybe it's the model. Maybe it's a fault in the game engine. But it's kinda crazy to watch the most powerful sea-denial force the US has ever faced, get fully trounced like a bunch of newborn kittens every single match.

I'll provide said scenario to anyone who wants a go upon request. Peace out.

The thing here is that I would not expect the Russian Federation to be successful. The thought of a CVN vs. any RFN surface force in a face-to-face conflict would be almost a foregone conclusion. While it might be an interesting exercise, I would think the Kuznetzov would more likely play a role as a helo/ASW platform under the umbrella of land-based air protecting SSBN marshaling areas.

Regards,
Feltan

[mikmykWS]

Yeah Russian carriers were never meant to go toe to toe with US CVGB's.[:)] They were part of a larger strike complex (Subs, Backfire's, Surface fleet etc).

Was any jamming included in the scenario?

Make sure to use the strike editor feature as well for raids. Off axis[:)]

Mike

[NakedWeasel]

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Yeah Russian carriers were never meant to go toe to toe with US CVGB's.[:)] They were part of a larger strike complex (Subs, Backfire's, Surface fleet etc).

Was any jamming included in the scenario?

Make sure to use the strike editor feature as well for raids. Off axis[:)]

Mike

Oh you betcha. I never set up a game without it, if at all possible. 5 Growlers on the flat top, perpetually patrolling out to about 200nm at 45 degree off-bore to the group's course. Now, at this point I don't have any Russian platforms jamming, because they really don't have any carrier-borne assets for that, aside from the ships themselves. I don't like to use the ships jammers in order to maintain EMCON- but I am seriously thinking about adding some OECM Fencers, or maybe even some Tu-22PD.

[NakedWeasel]

Done. Tasty revised build, now with even more jamming! [:D]

Edited, wrong build. Sorry folks.

[Gunner98]

Tu-16P Badger J & L's do a nice job on the jamming side of things. Tu-16R Badger F has got some decent ELINT as well. They were designed to support the fleet in this type of fight I think. I'm not sure how they would stack against a Growler but against an EA-6B they seem to do a pretty good job.

I think it would be a foolhardy Russian Admiral who would go toe to toe with a US CSG without a lot of land based air support. Luring a CSG into an LBA/SSN ambush perhaps but its an unequal fight from the get-go. Still, I'll take a look at your scenario for S*&ts & giggles.

B

[AlmightyTallest]

This is a fun scenario, try it by adding all the currently orbiting Russian and US Satellites.

[NakedWeasel]

Yes, it's really just a test scenario, not one of my more than 10,000-AU monsters, that takes me months to build. But it is one of the more fun scenarios I've made lately, as it maintains a fairly quick pace if you have any time compression set. Just a friendly bump, I've re-uploaded the file, as this one is much more elegant and allows both sides jammers to really be put to use.

[NakedWeasel]

Not really a full AAR, but this shows the typical outcome. Note: This is with the Russian jamming cranked up to 110%... You'll also notice the heavy ASM's were never launched, probably due to heavy jamming from the Growlers obscuring the battle group's position- and the US alpha strike then turned the Russian boats into smoking holes in the ocean. The only Russian survivors were the SSN's, which blasted right past the US CSG without either side catching wind of the other. ( I watched it with God Perspective turned on. )

There were no hits on the US ships, not even a scratch.

SIDE: United States
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
7x F/A-18C Hornet
2x F/A-18E Super Hornet
1x E-2C Hawkeye 2000
2x F/A-18F Super Hornet


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
197x AIM-120D AMRAAM P3I.4
24x AIM-9X Sidewinder
43x 20mm/85 M61A1 Vulcan Burst [100 rnds]
5x RIM-66M-2 SM-2MR Blk IIIA
2x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Dual Spectral]
32x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
1x AN/ALE-50
1x 20mm/85 M61A2 Vulcan Burst [100 rnds]
48x AGM-88E AARGM
48x AGM-154C JSOW [BROACH]
10x AGM-84K SLAMER-ATA
48x RGM-84G Harpoon ICR



SIDE: Russian Federation
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
12x Tu-142MZ Bear F Mod 4
6x Su-24MP Fencer F
8x Tu-95MR Bear E
4x A-50 Mainstay A
28x MiG-29K Fulcrum D
12x Su-34 Fullback
4x Tu-22PD Blinder E
12x Tu-22M-3 Backfire C
11x Ka-27PL Helix A
7x Ka-29RLD Helix
1x RKR Petr Velikiy [Pr.1144 Orlan, Ex-Yuri Androvo]
1x RKR Slava [Pr.1164 Atlant]
2x EM Sovremenny I [Pr.956A]
4x MiG-29UB Fulcrum B
14x Su-33 Flanker D
2x BPK Udaloy II [Pr.1155.1]
1x SKR Krivak III [Pr.1135.5 Nerei]
1x TAKR Admiral Kuznetsov [Pr.1143.5]
1x SKR Neustrashimy [Pr.1154 Yastreb]


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
61x Generic Chaff Salvo [8x Cartridges]
14x Generic Flare Salvo [4x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
53x Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]
4x Generic Flare Salvo [2x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
2x AA-11 Archer [R-73]
19x AA-12 Adder A [R-77, RVV-AE]
2x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
5x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
3x 30mm Gsh-30-1 Burst [30 rnds]
2x AS-4 Kitchen A Mod 3 [Kh-22N ASM]
24x SA-N-20a Gargoyle [48N6]
171x SA-N-9 Gauntlet [9M330-2 Kinzhal]
19x SA-N-11a Grisom [9M311K]
9x 30mm Twin Gatling Gsh-6-30K Burst [375 rnds]
22x SA-N-6a Grumble [5R55RM]
46x PK-10 Flare [SO-50]
31x SA-N-7 Gadfly [9M38]
17x AK-130 130mm/54 Twin Frag Burst [2 rnds]
144x PK-10 Chaff [SR-50]
45x PK-2 Chaff [TSP-47]
12x PK-16 Chaff [TSP-60U]
1x SA-N-4b Gecko [9M33M3]
1x PK-2 Flare [TST-47]
13x AK-100 100mm/70 Frag

[AlmightyTallest]

I made the mistake of thinking the two land bases on the Russian side were well defended, so I had 212 BGM-109's hit the nearer one, and 92 more at the one further away. It is amazing the kind of firepower that can be brought to bear from a US CVBG operating far from friendly territory.

[NakedWeasel]

Heh, yeah, as they say in old Blighty, that's just not cricket. [:'(] I only added the land bases in frustration to the Russians inability to find the US CSG. As a matter of fact, I might just teleport the aircraft into the edge of the AO, to keep the cruise missiles out of the equation.

[ExNusquam]

One of the other things you may want to try in that scenario is to reduce the airwing of the US CVN to a more realistic airgroup - now days it looks like they only deploy with 4 VFA squadrons on board (50 AC max), in the scenario currently there are 72 Hornets available for things. I'm going to try a run through with a reduced hornet complement.

[NakedWeasel]

I added the Marine airwing in the scenario, because if this were close to real world, we wouldn't send a carrier strike group into the mouth of the Bear with only 50 or so fighters. When I was in the Persian Gulf (Arabian Sea,) we deployed with, or at least hosted a Marine Air Wing- which is what you see reflected. That said, I've done it a dozen times with the standard 60ish AC compliment, and the results are always the same. Basically, you've got to make the odds so heavily in the RFN's favor, that the match-up, is no longer a match-up. Take enough away from the US, and add more and more to the Russian side, and you finally reach parity... and eventually a gang rape of the US task force.

The purpose of this is a clash of titans.

[dillonkbase]

I wonder if you loaded a Nimitz with russian aircraft, but left the rest of the surface fleets as they are if the out come would change... does giving the russian's a super carrier improve their odds?

What happens if the US just gets a Kuznetsov, loaded with a compliment of US aircraft...

[thewood1]

Try doing it with the US having just a Wasp or two. That might be the equivalent.