A preview of the v1.9.5.4 Change List

Distant Worlds is a vast, pausable real-time, 4X space strategy game which models a "living galaxy" with incredible options for replayability and customizability. Experience the full depth and detail of large turn-based strategy games, but with the simplicity and ease of real-time, and on the scale of a massively-multiplayer online game. Now greatly enhanced with the new Universe release, which includes all four previous releases as well as the new Universe expansion!

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pkoko
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RE: A preview of the v1.9.5.4 Change List

Post by pkoko »

ORIGINAL: Tcby

The problem is that we can build enough labs to reach max capacity, but the AI does not. This way everyone is capable of having enough labs. For a human it amounts to clicking the > button a few less times when building designs...not a big deal. Definitely not a loss in strategic depth. I'd be surprised if anyone intentionally didn't build the right number of labs in the past.

Why not instruct the AI to keep building research facilities until the max is reached? It is not that hard of a programing fix. Eric is fixing the problem the wrong way.
Mandras
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RE: A preview of the v1.9.5.4 Change List

Post by Mandras »

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

Are you sure you are accounting for the pirate playstyle differences? Mercenary and Raider gets a +25% bonus to boarding pod strength while Smugglers get a -25% penalty to pod strength. When Pirate Bases/Fortresses get attacked, it seems to not matter weither you are Atuuk or Ikkuro, your troops are exactly the same strength. Also, the facility defense bonus given by Mercenary and Smuggler playstyles also seems to not function at all.


I thought about this so I started two games as Mortalen and Atuuk with Balanced playstyle just to be sure, and the boarding pod strength on the starting escort ships were 69 (Mortalen) and 34 (Atuuk) respectively.

The forces spawned to defend secret bases are very weak, basic Mortalen Conqueror infantry have 13800 attack or so, but Mortalen pirates defending their base have 8000 attack/defense, and Mortalen pirates raiding a planet from assault pods are even weaker (6900 strength).
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Tcby
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RE: A preview of the v1.9.5.4 Change List

Post by Tcby »

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

Well, the ones I would probably consider high priority are:

<snip>
- Development bonus from multiple wonders on the same planet do not stack, it only seems to apply one and ignore the rest. Ruins are also affected by this as their development bonus is counted as a 'wonder'
<snip>

I actually like this. I think it is better that wonder development bonuses do not stack, because it gives us a reason to build them on different planets. Otherwise it is usually best to build them all in the capital. It devolves wonders into predictable bonuses that you always get in your capital. As it is now you have to make a decision whether the wonder bonus alone is enough to justify building it at your capital instead of at another planet that will also benefit from the development bonus (thus making the wonder more valuable in the long run, paying for its own maintenance etc).

As for ruins also counting as wonders for the purposes of stacking effects...ruins being nullified by the research wonders and vice versa, is definitely not good.
Nanaki
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RE: A preview of the v1.9.5.4 Change List

Post by Nanaki »

I disagree with you, for the following reasons:

- The AI generally does not understand this. It will build all its wonders on its homeworld. This is also what led me to believe it is a bug and not WAD
- Not all empires will have spare planets to build wonders on. For example, if a 2-3 colony empire manages to get 4-5 wonders, they will have to stack wonders. They should not be penalized for being small
- Some wonders have a strong inclination to stacking with certain other wonders. For example, there is a very strong incentive to stack all three research wonders on the same planet, as you would only need to assign your scientists to one place instead of three
- I like the idea of massive vertical expansion, an empire being able to become a superpower without having to colonize half the known galaxy, or even expand beyond its home starsytem, one of DW's ideas that I like is that a tall empire is just as equally viable as a wide one.
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Tcby
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RE: A preview of the v1.9.5.4 Change List

Post by Tcby »

Such a speedy reply! Discussion is fun [:)]. Also props on the detail with pirate gameplay bugs. I really want to get in some pirate games once they have been ironed out. Especially the issue with smugglers.

My position on each of your points:
Firstly, I'll ignore for the moment whether something is working as intended. Given that we are talking about the relative merits of each approach, what approach Elliot has in mind is sort of beside the point for our purposes (something being intended doesn't necessarily mean it is good or bad design).

Regarding the ability of the AI to understand wonder placement, that is a limitation that should be patched. It's boring for them to build everything in their capital, as well.

AFAIK It doesn't matter which planet you put your research wonders on, because their effect is global. Where your scientists are located doesn't effect the bonus like it does with a research location.

As for stacking other effects, this leads to what I mentioned in my previous post: actual game play decisions. Do you stack Bakuras high speed shipyards with the Advanced Medicomplex for early growth and speedy construction? Or do you build them on different planets, accept that one is going to take a much longer time (potentially then being beaten by an AI building on their capital), and aim for better output in the (very) long term? Money now is always stronger than a bit more money in 20 years time. It is still a much stronger play to build the traders bazaar on a highly populated planet with a wonder already in place, than on a freshly conquered independent with half a billion pop. The wonders are almost all far more powerful when placed on a highly populated planet. Far, far more powerful.

Continuing on, I agree with you about wanting tall to be viable compared to wide. The thing is, in distant worlds a tall empire is FAAAAAAR more powerful than a wide one. Wide empires do not exist in distant worlds. Consider the overwhelming superiority of conquering another capital instead of founding several of your own colonies. Tall empires don't need a leg up at all. At the moment what I feel the game needs is payoff for colonization that doesn't take decades to show you a return. If you think that wide empires are just as good as tall ones, check out Icemania's extreme AAR.

Perhaps we have different definitions of tall vs wide..?
Nanaki
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RE: A preview of the v1.9.5.4 Change List

Post by Nanaki »

AFAIK It doesn't matter which planet you put your research wonders on, because their effect is global. Where your scientists are located doesn't effect the bonus like it does with a research location.

Hmm, I read up on it and you are right, I thought it worked like location bonuses but it seems like I am wrong. Which is odd because it should work for Pirates, then.
As for stacking other effects, this leads to what I mentioned in my previous post: actual game play decisions. Do you stack Bakuras high speed shipyards with the Advanced Medicomplex for early growth and speedy construction?

It depends. My last game I never expanded beyond one or two planets so all my wonders were clustered on the same planets.
Continuing on, I agree with you about wanting tall to be viable compared to wide. The thing is, in distant worlds a tall empire is FAAAAAAR more powerful than a wide one. Wide empires do not exist in distant worlds. Consider the overwhelming superiority of conquering another capital instead of founding several of your own colonies. Tall empires don't need a leg up at all. At the moment what I feel the game needs is payoff for colonization that doesn't take decades to show you a return. If you think that wide empires are just as good as tall ones, check out Icemania's extreme AAR.

This is just incorrect. Wide empires are always better in the long run because they always eventually surpass tall. Sure, capturing capitals is better, but also more difficult (unless you use exploits), colonization is an easy, pain-free way to spread your empire. The biggest bonus of wide is that it increases your territorial influence which gives you more exclusive systems to set up mining stations and resort bases on, which also boosts your economy.

Taller empires have far fewer planets and thus their influence is small, in the far more extreme cases tall empires will even deal with resource issues due to their limited influence.

Also, even if a tall empire can match the economy of a wide one, IIRC your research capacity is determined entirely by population
Perhaps we have different definitions of tall vs wide..?

Tall = few, well-developed planets. Wide = Many, lesser-developed planets.
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Tcby
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RE: A preview of the v1.9.5.4 Change List

Post by Tcby »

You don't need many mining stations at all. Especially if you only have a few colonies. You only need those extra mines if you have the extra colonies.

Let me ask you this: if the development bonus stacked, and assuming you started a game with a standard start (ie without extra colonies or tech), when would it be advantageous to not build wonders in the capital?

As for more colonies being better in the long term, that is true. But its such a long term that you can have easily won the game before that times arrives. This is assuming you conquer the independents near you, leaving you with ~3-4 colonies. Do you consider that a small number?

Edit: to clarify, what I'm more concerned about is there being an actual choice for where you build wonders. You seem to want the development bonus to stack because you want to always build wonders in capital. That is your play style. I want there to be a choice, based on the circumstances of the game. I play both tall and wide. I am not aware of ANY situation in which I should not build the majority of wonders in the capital, if the development bonus were to stack. Even without it stacking, the advantage is overwhelming for the first tier wonders. If this could be addressed in some other way, I wouldn't mind at all that the bonus stacked.
Nanaki
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RE: A preview of the v1.9.5.4 Change List

Post by Nanaki »

As for more colonies being better in the long term, that is true. But its such a long term that you can have easily won the game before that times arrives. This is assuming you conquer the independents near you, leaving you with ~3-4 colonies. Do you consider that a small number?

Yes, to both. Given, I play with 960K research costs, rare independants (you wont find more than 1 or 2 independants near your homeworld), 1400 stars, and 15x15 all of which are more conductive to wide empires.
Edit: to clarify, what I'm more concerned about is there being an actual choice for where you build wonders. You seem to want the development bonus to stack because you want to always build wonders in capital. That is your play style. I want there to be a choice, based on the circumstances of the game. I play both tall and wide. I am not aware of ANY situation in which I should not build the majority of wonders in the capital, if the development bonus were to stack. Even without it stacking, the advantage is overwhelming for the first tier wonders. If this could be addressed in some other way, I wouldn't mind at all that the bonus stacked.

Ideally, you generally want to build wonders at your best planet, which may or may not be your homeworld. It is actually possible to find worlds that not only surpass your homeworld in quality and size, but also have something else like a ruin that also boosts development. As for your concerns, I would be perfectly fine if additional wonders provided a reduced amount of development, but they should still provide development none the less.
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Tcby
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RE: A preview of the v1.9.5.4 Change List

Post by Tcby »

After I posted that message I considered adding a little disclaimer that 'capital' is probably better described as 'best planet' rather than starting planet. My point is that you pick your planet with the best quality and size and plonk everything there. Usually that means the starting planet gets a bunch of first tier wonders, and the 90+ planet you find nearby gets the rest in the years to come. The split is determined, of course, by research speed.

There being one obviously superior strategy, that just so happens to be the easiest and safest, is...boring. I feel like there is very little differentiation between colonies as it is. Making sure that you'll never even think about putting wonders on anything but the best one makes expansion even more bland.

But thems opinions, I guess.

Allowing them to stack with reduced development bonus sounds like a good approach.
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