Books/Atkinson

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy




Excellent! I'm glad to hear that he's writing a trilogy on the American Revolution! I've tried (unsuccessfully) to find a well-documented read on the AR. I trust he'll do a good job of it.

Not a big ACW buff, but I may just have to check out the Long Gray Line too.

Oh...nice Birkenstocks, crsutton. Hippie. [:'(][;)]

Merrill shoes, "Cadillacs for your feet"[;)] But "Boy Most Fowl" the Long Gray Line is about the West Point Class of 1966 (the class that lost the most men in Vietnam) and is just excellent from beginning to end.

Thanks for clarifying crsutton.

The Vietnam books that I've appreciate are those that deal with the military aspect of the conflict and don't devolve (as so many do) into the political machinations of the home front at the time. Sure, I get it, the political goings-on at home dictated our involvement in the war. But, IMO, too many authors lose their cohesive narrative on the fighting so they can (over)focus on domestic politics of the time. One of the few books on the subject that I've read that focused on the American decimation of the Vietcong and the military defeat the VC suffered post-Tet was Unheralded Victory, the defeat of the Vietcong and the NVA 1961-1973 by Mark Woodruff. I thoroughly recommend that refreshing look at the war for those interested in the military aspects of Vietnam.

So, with that being said, does Atkinson's "Long Grey Line" focus on the military aspect of the war or does it devolve and lose focus on domestic politics?

Thanks for your consideration.

Well, I think you will enjoy it. The best part of all is a close look at what West Point was in 1966, which really takes up half the book. It reads like a good novel. Try it and let us know what you think. It is not really about the Vietnam War.

My favorite Vietnam War book is "A Bright Shining Lie." by Neil Sheehan. Nothing comes close to this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bright_Shining_Lie

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: crsutton




Merrill shoes, "Cadillacs for your feet"[;)] But "Boy Most Fowl" the Long Gray Line is about the West Point Class of 1966 (the class that lost the most men in Vietnam) and is just excellent from beginning to end.

Thanks for clarifying crsutton.

The Vietnam books that I've appreciate are those that deal with the military aspect of the conflict and don't devolve (as so many do) into the political machinations of the home front at the time. Sure, I get it, the political goings-on at home dictated our involvement in the war. But, IMO, too many authors lose their cohesive narrative on the fighting so they can (over)focus on domestic politics of the time. One of the few books on the subject that I've read that focused on the American decimation of the Vietcong and the military defeat the VC suffered post-Tet was Unheralded Victory, the defeat of the Vietcong and the NVA 1961-1973 by Mark Woodruff. I thoroughly recommend that refreshing look at the war for those interested in the military aspects of Vietnam.

So, with that being said, does Atkinson's "Long Grey Line" focus on the military aspect of the war or does it devolve and lose focus on domestic politics?

Thanks for your consideration.

Well, I think you will enjoy it. The best part of all is a close look at what West Point was in 1966, which really takes up half the book. It reads like a good novel. Try it and let us know what you think. It is not really about the Vietnam War.

My favorite Vietnam War book is "A Bright Shining Lie." by Neil Sheehan. Nothing comes close to this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bright_Shining_Lie

Thanks for the link, crsutton. With all due respect, that wiki (Bright Shining Lie) reads like a sociopolitical 'told you so' about the conduct of the war in leadership echelons. Not what I'm looking for.

[TOMLABEL]

ORIGINAL: Symon

Just that he's not a tiny penis social media wannabe, celebrated progressive moron, or a homo-sex HIV victim screaming for validation.

TOMLABEL

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy




Thanks for clarifying crsutton.

The Vietnam books that I've appreciate are those that deal with the military aspect of the conflict and don't devolve (as so many do) into the political machinations of the home front at the time. Sure, I get it, the political goings-on at home dictated our involvement in the war. But, IMO, too many authors lose their cohesive narrative on the fighting so they can (over)focus on domestic politics of the time. One of the few books on the subject that I've read that focused on the American decimation of the Vietcong and the military defeat the VC suffered post-Tet was Unheralded Victory, the defeat of the Vietcong and the NVA 1961-1973 by Mark Woodruff. I thoroughly recommend that refreshing look at the war for those interested in the military aspects of Vietnam.

So, with that being said, does Atkinson's "Long Grey Line" focus on the military aspect of the war or does it devolve and lose focus on domestic politics?

Thanks for your consideration.

Well, I think you will enjoy it. The best part of all is a close look at what West Point was in 1966, which really takes up half the book. It reads like a good novel. Try it and let us know what you think. It is not really about the Vietnam War.

My favorite Vietnam War book is "A Bright Shining Lie." by Neil Sheehan. Nothing comes close to this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bright_Shining_Lie

Thanks for the link, crsutton. With all due respect, that wiki (Bright Shining Lie) reads like a sociopolitical 'told you so' about the conduct of the war in leadership echelons. Not what I'm looking for.

Not really. John Paul Vann was an unheralded hero of the war who loved his country and wanted it to succeed in Vietnam. He is a character right out of Hemingway. And Sheehan writes about him and the war as only someone who witnessed it first hand could. Another history book that reads like a novel. I have spent a lot of time researching and studying the Vietnam War and this book gets it about as right as anything. Sheehan won the Pulitzer Prize for his effort.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: crsutton




Well, I think you will enjoy it. The best part of all is a close look at what West Point was in 1966, which really takes up half the book. It reads like a good novel. Try it and let us know what you think. It is not really about the Vietnam War.

My favorite Vietnam War book is "A Bright Shining Lie." by Neil Sheehan. Nothing comes close to this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bright_Shining_Lie

Thanks for the link, crsutton. With all due respect, that wiki (Bright Shining Lie) reads like a sociopolitical 'told you so' about the conduct of the war in leadership echelons. Not what I'm looking for.

Not really. John Paul Vann was an unheralded hero of the war who loved his country and wanted it to succeed in Vietnam. He is a character right out of Hemingway. And Sheehan writes about him and the war as only someone who witnessed it first hand could. Another history book that reads like a novel. I have spent a lot of time researching and studying the Vietnam War and this book gets it about as right as anything. Sheehan won the Pulitzer Prize for his effort.

Maybe so, but it's not the type of book on the Vietnamese war that I'm looking for. Any recommendations on a non-second-person centric military history of the entirety of the war? I'm looking for something more akin to an 'official history'.

[barkman44]

After reading"Day of Battle"I just had to ask him via e-mail why he didn't
include Hube,the overall german commander on sicily.
He responded that he couldn't include everyone involved.
He was an interesting character.He died in a airplane crash in route to berlin
to receive an award(can't remember off the top of my head swords I think,am on the road)
For his command actions on sicily.No criticism just an interesting aside.
Also as for books on Vietnam,I served there and just can't get interested in reading about it.

[Eambar]

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

After reading"Day of Battle"I just had to ask him via e-mail why he didn't
include Hube,the overall german commander on sicily.
He responded that he couldn't include everyone involved.
He was an interesting character.He died in a airplane crash in route to berlin
to receive an award(can't remember off the top of my head swords I think,am on the road)
For his command actions on sicily.No criticism just an interesting aside.
Also as for books on Vietnam,I served there and just can't get interested in reading about it.

Hube had received his Diamonds to the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds. In addition to his efforts on Sicily, he was also awarded the Diamonds for the breakout of III Panzerkorps from the Kamenets-Podolsky pocket. One of Germany's best commanders.

Cheers,

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Maybe so, but it's not the type of book on the Vietnamese war that I'm looking for. Any recommendations on a non-second-person centric military history of the entirety of the war? I'm looking for something more akin to an 'official history'.

I don’t think one of those exists. The period was one of incredible turmoil; in the military establishment, as well as society as a whole. Most authors have an axe to grind or an ox to gore. The military writers are all either Colonels who will not get stars, or Lt Colonels who ain’t likely to get even their silver chicken.

In my humble opinion, the best of the bunch, the most penetrating, able, and forthright, is Harry G Summers, Col, Inf, USA; classical, Clausewitzian analysis. His “Critical Analysis of the Vietnam War” is excellent, to my mind. His bibliographies are profound in their own right. His bibliographies will give you lots of food for thought, and some good reading.

He does his best to avoid getting tangled up in the socio/political underpants of the period; although he is very harsh on the military/politico interaction, not a surprise coming from the military side. His biography is also very interesting.

Ok, enuf, returning this OT hijack to the original OT thread [8D].

[barkman44]

That was the so-called"Roving pocket"

[pontiouspilot]

What about "Pacific Payback" by a chap called Moore?…..anybody read it? It showed up on my Amazon spam after I checked out Atkinson's other books.

[jmalter]

Had a good read of Sheehan's "Bright Shining Lie", tempered by Halberstam, Bao Ninh, Moore/Galloway, David Hackworth, Michael Herr, & Bernard Fall.

IMO it's not possible to separate military history from its social / political context. You might be able to find 'operational' mil-hist, but that's not gonna tell you anything about what actually happened.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: jmalter
IMO it's not possible to separate military history from its social / political context. You might be able to find 'operational' mil-hist, but that's not gonna tell you anything about what actually happened.

I couldn't disagree more. There are plenty of excellent autobiographies out there that minimize or mitigate the social / political context of the war(s) in which they are written. In reading the History of the United States Navy in the Second World War (Morrison), I've not sensed any political overreach. Same with the sound footing of Breakout and Pursuit (official US Army history of the Second World War in Europe, post July 1944) and the USMC Official histories. The latter does a superb job in explaining EXACTLY what was happening on the field in excruciating detail and lets the reader know what was really happening.

For one-volume operational or strategic overviews, I understand why the political arena needs some discussion. But while it's OK in measured quantity for context, the Vietnam War books tend to focus on this predominantly. Moreso, in my opinion, than most other conflicts. How many other books, for example, really deal with the fighting on the ground and in the air post Tet? I've not seen many that can divorce the good account of the American soldier 1968-1972 against the VC and NVA from the political machinations of the home front during this tumultuous period.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: jmalter
IMO it's not possible to separate military history from its social / political context. You might be able to find 'operational' mil-hist, but that's not gonna tell you anything about what actually happened.

I couldn't disagree more. There are plenty of excellent autobiographies out there that minimize or mitigate the social / political context of the war(s) in which they are written. In reading the History of the United States Navy in the Second World War (Morrison), I've not sensed any political overreach. Same with the sound footing of Breakout and Pursuit (official US Army history of the Second World War in Europe, post July 1944) and the USMC Official histories. The latter does a superb job in explaining EXACTLY what was happening on the field in excruciating detail and lets the reader know what was really happening.

For one-volume operational or strategic overviews, I understand why the political arena needs some discussion. But while it's OK in measured quantity for context, the Vietnam War books tend to focus on this predominantly. Moreso, in my opinion, than most other conflicts. How many other books, for example, really deal with the fighting on the ground and in the air post Tet? I've not seen many that can divorce the good account of the American soldier 1968-1972 against the VC and NVA from the political machinations of the home front during this tumultuous period.

Well CB, the original post was about Atkinson, so I can use him as an example. To me the absolute "best" part of the third book was his recount and analysis of the Yalta conference. You can describe campaigns and battles with little political analysis (although very few in my view) but not a war. The problem with Vietnam is that there were really very few set piece battles or distinctive campaigns to define the war with. The war, and global political and social situation were so intertwined that it would be impossible to separate them. The battle of Ap Bac in 1963 is a prime example. Without an understanding of the underlying political ramifications this small but crucial battle really cannot be seen in context. To me any attempt to separate the two would be like crossing the Rocky Mountains with your car windows covered in newspaper. You certainly would know where you started and assuming you did not drive over a cliff, know where you arrived at but you really would not have an understanding of how you got there...[;)]

[Symon]

Politics is always a part of war, c.f Clausewitz. But the history of the Vietnam conflict has an imperitive that includes the decisions made in DC. Several works are much like Atkinson’s in that they put the military operations into the National political perspective.

But they are not relevant to the socialist/’progressive’/self-absorbed/self-appointed propaganda, from "students", from New England Universities, who ran amok on May Day.

Sorry, but they have been trying to resurrect their lack of honor or integrity ever since. Some few people believe it, because those people are the ones whose books get published and who get on the nightly news as “experts”. but their apologia is getting very thin.

How do I know this? I served and then worked for several years, in that exact time frame, as an analyst for Aeling Corp. Some of you will know the Agency that was a front for.

There are good books for the period, without the progressive nonsense. I think I referenced Harry Summers.

[wdolson]

Please refrain from the political soap boxing. Some books may have a perspective you don't agree with. Some may be factually wrong. Let's leave it at that.

Bill

[pontiouspilot]

Thank you Mr. Olson...as to my follow-up re "Pacific Payback"....anybody here read it?? If not that kinda answers my question.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Symon

Politics is always a part of war, c.f Clausewitz. But the history of the Vietnam conflict has an imperitive that includes the decisions made in DC. Several works are much like Atkinson’s in that they put the military operations into the National political perspective.

But they are not relevant to the socialist/’progressive’/self-absorbed/self-appointed propaganda, from "students", from New England Universities, who ran amok on May Day.

Sorry, but they have been trying to resurrect their lack of honor or integrity ever since. Some few people believe it, because those people are the ones whose books get published and who get on the nightly news as “experts”. but their apologia is getting very thin.

How do I know this? I served and then worked for several years, in that exact time frame, as an analyst for Aeling Corp. Some of you will know the Agency that was a front for.

There are good books for the period, without the progressive nonsense. I think I referenced Harry Summers.

"Hanoi's War" is making for interesting reading, which is saying something given it focuses on the politics and leaders making decisions vs. military actions.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: wdolson
Please refrain from the political soap boxing. Some books may have a perspective you don't agree with. Some may be factually wrong. Let's leave it at that.

Bill

You are correct. Sorry Bill.

[geofflambert]

I just finished reading the Atkinson trilogy. Very worthwhile I think. He didn't withhold criticism on anyone nor praise. They were all human. Atkinson is a little over the top at times when trying to be profound, but he often is profound. I found his excessive use of "sanguinary" very annoying. His use of "sanguine" seemed appropriate in each case, though. Strange how the meanings are so different and yet connected.

Now what am I supposed to do? I bought copies of "The House of the Seven Gables" and "Les Miserables" just in case I get jury duty or something. Isn't there something better out there? I've read "The History of Gorn" more times than I wish to admit. Someone help me.

[Trugrit]

If you have not read them already:

These are two books I highly recommend:

"Fire in the Sky: The Air War in the South Pacific" by Eric Bergerud.
(About 800 pages of pure joy for anyone interested in the Pacific air war.)
Check out the reader reviews on Amazon.

Also,
"Touched with Fire: The Land War in the South Pacific" by Eric Bergerud.