[EDIT: Updated to capture test results]
I've analysed short-range and long-range weapons aiming to improve balance (no area or gravitic weapons yet).
For short-range weapons the AI design templates primarily use Beams with some Phasers and Rail Guns. While for long-range the majority are Torpedoes with some Missiles.
I've analysed each of these weapons with the following methodology:
• Considered damage, range, fire rate, size and loss.
• Calculated damage per second (DPS) per unit size at various ranges.
• Calculated an Average DPS per unit size across those ranges as the primary measure.
• The Benchmark for each class were my favourite weapons e.g. Plasma Torpedoes, Titan Beams once upon a time.
• Tried to account for Weapon Bonuses in setting Targets e.g. Rail Guns partially bypass Shields, Phaser Lances have an Armour penetration bonus (estimates of course).
• As all these factors are difficult to fully capture on paper the focus was in-game Battle Arena style testing using Game Editor.
Philosophically the intent was:
• Racial weapons provide a strong advantage early game, limited advantage mid-game but it should be possible to catch-up by late game with enough research effort.
• Missiles and Rail Guns should provide an advantage early game, be at parity mid-game, but be relatively weak late game. However, they should not be ridiculously weak so that races that use them still have a chance.
Conclusions:
• Change Heavy Rail Gun damage from 10, 11, 13 (for each technology in that chain) to 17, 19, 22 while Massive Rail Guns change from 16, 19 to 24, 30 (ref Post 25).
• Change Phaser Lance damage from 20, 25, 32 to 24, 30, 38 (ref Post 26).
• Change Shaktur Firestorm damage from 36, 46, 62 to 30, 46, 74 (ref Post 30).
• Change Fighters per Bay from 4 to 6 (ref Post 38).
• Change Death Ray from 1800 damage and 440 range to 3000 damage and 1000 range (ref Post 60).
Hopefully this could lead to a more balanced weapons experience in-game. Any views and/or other analysis results?
Weapons Balancing
RE: Weapons Balancing
Very happy to see this. Two brief questions:
Why the area/gravitic exclusion? Difficult to compare?
What was the conclusion regarding the Wekkarus Pulse Wave cannon?
Why the area/gravitic exclusion? Difficult to compare?
What was the conclusion regarding the Wekkarus Pulse Wave cannon?
RE: Weapons Balancing
The Wekkarus Pulse Wave Cannon needed a slight buff 5-10% mid to late game. Note it's Size 5 while Titan Beams are Size 6, with slightly less damage and range, so works out pretty close.ORIGINAL: Tcby
Very happy to see this. Two brief questions:
Why the area/gravitic exclusion? Difficult to compare?
What was the conclusion regarding the Wekkarus Pulse Wave cannon?
The area/gravitic weapons need more time than what I had available today.
RE: Weapons Balancing
How exactly did you take armor penetration and shield bypassing into account?
RE: Weapons Balancing
...I was just coming over to ask that question, after looking through your (Spidey) analysis in the Armour thread.
RE: Weapons Balancing
I think what I would want from my weapon balance is to have tactical choices, not a difference in overall DPS. So balance them so that you can make designs with the same boundaries (cost? Size?) to have roughly equal DPS, but have other tradeoffs, such as energy use or certain resource requirements that your empire may or may not have... short/long distance. Etc. etc.
RE: Weapons Balancing
Oh and maybe a bit of rock/paper/scissors in the sense that, for instance, I can counter your long range weapons with my more advanced engines so I can close in quickly.
Keep up the good work Ice! You're on a roll!
Keep up the good work Ice! You're on a roll!
RE: Weapons Balancing
That's certainly the hard part ... as I mentioned in the OP they are estimates. And it's why I'm testing in-game right now to see what happens.ORIGINAL: Spidey
How exactly did you take armor penetration and shield bypassing into account?
Consider the Phaser Lance. It says there is a 10% targeting bonus and more effective against armour. It still has to penetrate shields so I've guessed and set a DPS per unit size target reduced by 1/3rd.
Similarly Rail Guns. It says there is a 10% targeting loss, are less effective against armour, and partially bypass shields. So as a guess late game I've targeted 50% of the DPS that you would get from Titan Beams. Maybe that needs to be reduced further.
In my view the conclusions are valid it's a question of what the right % change is. How often are you worried about someone pawning you with Phaser Lances or Rail Guns in-game?
I'll report back later on in-game findings.
In the meantime better ideas are very welcome, it will be easy to update the calculation with more information.
RE: Weapons Balancing
I haven't had a chance to consider the implications of all that in detail for this exercise, support welcome to update this and get it right.ORIGINAL: Tcby
...I was just coming over to ask that question, after looking through your (Spidey) analysis in the Armour thread.
RE: Weapons Balancing
I'm afraid that level of detail is beyond me. Thankfully there are a few people here who enjoy the maths 
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feelotraveller
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RE: Weapons Balancing
Some tweaking of the weapons numbers could be good but it would be good not to go overboard in the balancing act.
For me the game is about flavour more than balance. This is true with races etc, as well as weapons.
So rail guns are just not meant to be competitive end game but to pose some problems (what, one piece of armour damaged and you are fleeing the fight to repair, damn you...) add some possibilities (minor bombardment)and make for some bad choices. (Although as Atuuk perhaps the choice is not so bad?)
Or again the Firestorm torpedoes are meant to be powerful (perhaps verging on overpowered) early game, strong mid game but quite easily overcome late game. The player is meant to be intimidated by the Boskar (or whatever... [:D]) early on but not have too much difficulty taking them down in the end game.
Another example is missiles for the player. That they are weak(ish) late game poses to me the problem of how much I want to invest in them since they can be used to really good effect earlier in the game.
So I think the strengths and weaknesses of the weapons have to be considered in relation to the role that they play in the game. What I want from different weapons is not so much equal pewpew potential but rather different game experiences - beamers forcing me to get better shields and set range to point blank, or missiles sending me down the engines tree and encouraging me to explore the possibilities of standing-off, just as quick examples.
But also distinctly different racial combat flavours, and this means some challenging and some piss weak since they can have other advantages on the ground or through their spy networks. I don't want a bland every race equal challenge in ship to ship combat outcome. But that's just my take, I'm sure there are many.
Anyways that's my two cents, hope it's helpful. [:)]
For me the game is about flavour more than balance. This is true with races etc, as well as weapons.
So rail guns are just not meant to be competitive end game but to pose some problems (what, one piece of armour damaged and you are fleeing the fight to repair, damn you...) add some possibilities (minor bombardment)and make for some bad choices. (Although as Atuuk perhaps the choice is not so bad?)
Or again the Firestorm torpedoes are meant to be powerful (perhaps verging on overpowered) early game, strong mid game but quite easily overcome late game. The player is meant to be intimidated by the Boskar (or whatever... [:D]) early on but not have too much difficulty taking them down in the end game.
Another example is missiles for the player. That they are weak(ish) late game poses to me the problem of how much I want to invest in them since they can be used to really good effect earlier in the game.
So I think the strengths and weaknesses of the weapons have to be considered in relation to the role that they play in the game. What I want from different weapons is not so much equal pewpew potential but rather different game experiences - beamers forcing me to get better shields and set range to point blank, or missiles sending me down the engines tree and encouraging me to explore the possibilities of standing-off, just as quick examples.
But also distinctly different racial combat flavours, and this means some challenging and some piss weak since they can have other advantages on the ground or through their spy networks. I don't want a bland every race equal challenge in ship to ship combat outcome. But that's just my take, I'm sure there are many.
Anyways that's my two cents, hope it's helpful. [:)]
RE: Weapons Balancing
The goal is indeed to improve flavour.
In every game I use Torpedoes or Beams and I'm not even slightly tempted to use Rails Guns, Missiles or Phasers. With some better weapons balance that would change.
The current AI Design Templates have more Beams and Torpedoes than any other weapons. The AI's that use other weapons are at a distinct disadvantage. With some better weapons balance those races would become more interesting.
In the proposed AI Improvement Mod I'd like to have races focused more on particular Primary Weapons Types to draw out character.
I'm not intending for Rail Guns or Missiles to become an end game threat. At they moment they become so weak that they fade into complete irrelevance. Per the stated philosophy the idea is that end game they will be weaker but by not so much as the current difference is huge.
Phasers are different the intent is rough parity with Beam weapons.
With Firestorm Torpedoes they currently deliver more than twice the average DPS per unit size as compared to their equivalents. This for me was too high so with the above it's more like a 50% more (they are high loss so a relatively small reduction in damage of 20% reduces average DPS by much more).
Glad this topic is inspiring discussion!
In every game I use Torpedoes or Beams and I'm not even slightly tempted to use Rails Guns, Missiles or Phasers. With some better weapons balance that would change.
The current AI Design Templates have more Beams and Torpedoes than any other weapons. The AI's that use other weapons are at a distinct disadvantage. With some better weapons balance those races would become more interesting.
In the proposed AI Improvement Mod I'd like to have races focused more on particular Primary Weapons Types to draw out character.
I'm not intending for Rail Guns or Missiles to become an end game threat. At they moment they become so weak that they fade into complete irrelevance. Per the stated philosophy the idea is that end game they will be weaker but by not so much as the current difference is huge.
Phasers are different the intent is rough parity with Beam weapons.
With Firestorm Torpedoes they currently deliver more than twice the average DPS per unit size as compared to their equivalents. This for me was too high so with the above it's more like a 50% more (they are high loss so a relatively small reduction in damage of 20% reduces average DPS by much more).
Glad this topic is inspiring discussion!
RE: Weapons Balancing
Managed to get some in-game testing going (by using Game Editor and starting at a particular technology level) to compare Phasers and Titan Beams. The Phaser Average DPS target has been revised to half of the Titan Beam DPS target. Also had an error in calculation so looks like more like a 35-60% buff to Phaser Lances to be at rough parity. Phaser Cannons now align.
RE: Weapons Balancing
Using Game Editor I've conducted 6 tests after increased Heavy Rail Gun and Massive Rail Gun damage by 50%. The designs were otherwise identical (EDIT - except for the usual components optimised by the AI Ship Designer using Templates such as Reactors). Beams still won every test.
Escort Shatterforce Laser v Dhayut Heavy Rail Gun, Standard Armour, Standard Shields. Winner: Beams (took minor damage)
Escort Titan Beam v Dyahut Massive Rail Gun, Reactive Armour, Deucalios Shields, Damage Control. Winner: Beams (took minor damage)
Escort Quameno Full Tech Titan Beam v Dyahut Full Tech Massive Rail Gun, Ultradense Armour, Meridium Shields, Repair Bay. Result: Beams clearly superior, but Armour/Repair led to Stalemate
Capital Ship Shatterforce Laser v Dhayut Heavy Rail Gun, Standard Armour, Standard Shields. Winner: Beams (took moderate damage)
Capital Ship Titan Beam v Dyahut Massive Rail Gun, Reactive Armour, Deucalios Shields, Damage Control. Winner: Beams (took minor damage)
Capital Ship Quameno Full Tech Titan Beam v Dyahut Full Tech Massive Rail Gun, Ultradense Armour, Meridium Shields, Repair Bay. Result: Beams clearly superior, but Armour/Repair led to Stalemate
Escort Shatterforce Laser v Dhayut Heavy Rail Gun, Standard Armour, Standard Shields. Winner: Beams (took minor damage)
Escort Titan Beam v Dyahut Massive Rail Gun, Reactive Armour, Deucalios Shields, Damage Control. Winner: Beams (took minor damage)
Escort Quameno Full Tech Titan Beam v Dyahut Full Tech Massive Rail Gun, Ultradense Armour, Meridium Shields, Repair Bay. Result: Beams clearly superior, but Armour/Repair led to Stalemate
Capital Ship Shatterforce Laser v Dhayut Heavy Rail Gun, Standard Armour, Standard Shields. Winner: Beams (took moderate damage)
Capital Ship Titan Beam v Dyahut Massive Rail Gun, Reactive Armour, Deucalios Shields, Damage Control. Winner: Beams (took minor damage)
Capital Ship Quameno Full Tech Titan Beam v Dyahut Full Tech Massive Rail Gun, Ultradense Armour, Meridium Shields, Repair Bay. Result: Beams clearly superior, but Armour/Repair led to Stalemate
RE: Weapons Balancing
Are you considering the amount of supporting components required for each type of weapon? Missiles might be crap as far as up-front DPS, but you can support a lot of them off a single reactor and as a result they're a rather fuel-efficient weapon.
This thread has some stuff about missiles and torpedoes in it, mostly towards the bottom:
tm.asp?m=3634725
Also, are you looking at how the weapon energy requirements affect its alpha strike capability? With something like a Phaser Lance, you may be significantly reducing the ship's alpha strike by adding weapons up to the limit imposed by reactor output, whereas you don't lose much continuous DPS if you reduce the number of phaser lances to get a full alpha strike. Moreover, are you sure that phasers are really intended to be stand-alone weapons? They look like anti-armor specialists to me, whereas blasters look like general-purpose weapons that might suffer a bit against armor. Thus, I would tend to expect that the intended use of phasers is more as a secondary weapon to help a blaster ship punch through armor than as a primary DPS weapon, and in this role the phaser is fine as it stands - it can break armor more reliably than equivalent-tech blasters can, it has a similar range to equivalent-tech blasters, and its reactor use profile isn't a bad match for the blaster's reactor use profile when trying to fit weapons to complement one another. Your change to phasers to give them half the average DPS over their range band as the equivalent blaster significantly changes the use profile, as instead of having lower DPS over all of the common range band, your improved phasers have superior DPS at ranges greater than about three-quarters the maximum range (unless you're adding a distance penalty to phasers, which could change things a bit).
This thread has some stuff about missiles and torpedoes in it, mostly towards the bottom:
tm.asp?m=3634725
Also, are you looking at how the weapon energy requirements affect its alpha strike capability? With something like a Phaser Lance, you may be significantly reducing the ship's alpha strike by adding weapons up to the limit imposed by reactor output, whereas you don't lose much continuous DPS if you reduce the number of phaser lances to get a full alpha strike. Moreover, are you sure that phasers are really intended to be stand-alone weapons? They look like anti-armor specialists to me, whereas blasters look like general-purpose weapons that might suffer a bit against armor. Thus, I would tend to expect that the intended use of phasers is more as a secondary weapon to help a blaster ship punch through armor than as a primary DPS weapon, and in this role the phaser is fine as it stands - it can break armor more reliably than equivalent-tech blasters can, it has a similar range to equivalent-tech blasters, and its reactor use profile isn't a bad match for the blaster's reactor use profile when trying to fit weapons to complement one another. Your change to phasers to give them half the average DPS over their range band as the equivalent blaster significantly changes the use profile, as instead of having lower DPS over all of the common range band, your improved phasers have superior DPS at ranges greater than about three-quarters the maximum range (unless you're adding a distance penalty to phasers, which could change things a bit).
I don't recall the reactor use for railguns off the top of my head, but is a setup where you're only switching out the weapons actually a fair comparison? In other words, are you oversupplying one of the designs with reactors? Is the gun ship equipped with tractor beams to try to negate the blaster ship's range advantage?The designs were otherwise identical. Beams still won every test.
RE: Weapons Balancing
Given the complexities I've moved to Game Editor testing. This is based on the ship design templates to ensure generally common specifications but it will automatically adjust the number of reactors etc.
Note there are 5 or 6 races whose in-game design templates use Phasers as their Primary short-range weapon. It takes quite some time to research secondary weapons and I'm trying to find ways to improve the AI.
I'm doing testing for Beams v Rail Guns at the moment and then will turn to Missiles v Torpedoes and Phasers v Beams another time.
Note there are 5 or 6 races whose in-game design templates use Phasers as their Primary short-range weapon. It takes quite some time to research secondary weapons and I'm trying to find ways to improve the AI.
I'm doing testing for Beams v Rail Guns at the moment and then will turn to Missiles v Torpedoes and Phasers v Beams another time.
RE: Weapons Balancing
Great thread, and I would love to see weapons be made more balanced.
It seems to me that torpedo weapons are the best weapon choice in pretty much every circumstance. They are ideal for long-range kiting, harassment, and star base siege, but are also extremely effective at short ranges. I know their overall DPS is lower than beam weapons at short ranges, but their higher damage-per-shot gives them better armor penetration characteristics. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I can't think of any reason to use shorter-ranged weapons over torpedoes...
It seems to me that torpedo weapons are the best weapon choice in pretty much every circumstance. They are ideal for long-range kiting, harassment, and star base siege, but are also extremely effective at short ranges. I know their overall DPS is lower than beam weapons at short ranges, but their higher damage-per-shot gives them better armor penetration characteristics. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I can't think of any reason to use shorter-ranged weapons over torpedoes...
RE: Weapons Balancing
Yeah quite right I use Torpedoes exclusively.
I'll have to do some tests to try to balance Short and Long Range Weapons as well.
Or better yet others can go into editor (just manually select and deselect the technologies) and do some tests ...
I'll have to do some tests to try to balance Short and Long Range Weapons as well.
Or better yet others can go into editor (just manually select and deselect the technologies) and do some tests ...
RE: Weapons Balancing
Just as a passing thought, a good test could be to create three unarmed starbase designs (defenses only). One design with no armor but a large amount of shields (a huge amount, which would take minutes for a ship to penetrate), one design with no shields but a large amount of armor (same thing - it should take minutes for a ship to carve through it), and one design with the high armor and shield values of the previous two designs.
Then create multiple ship designs, each with 500-1000 space worth of a single weapon equipped.
Use the editor to place one of each type of the above starbases, and, one at a time, each of the weapon-carrying ship designs.
Use the ships to blow up each of the star bases, from point blank range, and record how long each one takes to die. That will give you an in-game profile of how each weapon works in real-world situations.
In my mind, a practical experiment like this would be much more valid than abstract theorycrafting.
Then create multiple ship designs, each with 500-1000 space worth of a single weapon equipped.
Use the editor to place one of each type of the above starbases, and, one at a time, each of the weapon-carrying ship designs.
Use the ships to blow up each of the star bases, from point blank range, and record how long each one takes to die. That will give you an in-game profile of how each weapon works in real-world situations.
In my mind, a practical experiment like this would be much more valid than abstract theorycrafting.
RE: Weapons Balancing
I've been in Editor for a while now testing. The theory was nice to get started but after seeing the complexities I agree!
From the last round of tests in Game Editor I propose that Heavy Rail Gun damage is changed from 10, 11, 13 (for each technology in that chain) to 17, 19, 22 while Massive Rail Guns change from 16, 19 to 24, 30. At that point Rail Guns win testing early game but then Beams take over.
I'll leave it with you, hope there are some good results in the morning! (my time in Perth) [:)]
From the last round of tests in Game Editor I propose that Heavy Rail Gun damage is changed from 10, 11, 13 (for each technology in that chain) to 17, 19, 22 while Massive Rail Guns change from 16, 19 to 24, 30. At that point Rail Guns win testing early game but then Beams take over.
I'll leave it with you, hope there are some good results in the morning! (my time in Perth) [:)]