GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Please post here for questions and discussion about scenario, art and sound modding and the game editor for Distant Worlds.

Moderators: elliotg, Icemania

User avatar
Osito
Posts: 878
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 8:55 am

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by Osito »

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile

Hope it turns out well! :D

Thanks! Here are a couple of pics of the current stage of development, with the vanilla galaxy backdrop. There are about 900 systems in this map, so I have to add another 500-ish. I also let the game play against itself on this map for a few hours and it seems stable enough. The map is not balanced, i.e., some areas are much better starting points than others, but that's WAD.

Osito

Image
Attachments
20140627_114016.jpg
20140627_114016.jpg (620.57 KiB) Viewed 528 times
Osito
User avatar
Osito
Posts: 878
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 8:55 am

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by Osito »

And another:



Image
Attachments
20140627_114030.jpg
20140627_114030.jpg (554.55 KiB) Viewed 528 times
Osito
User avatar
Osito
Posts: 878
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 8:55 am

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by Osito »

Update:

Verson 1.0 of the galactic map is now complete and playable. There are about 1300 star systems (I kept a rough count of them, but there doesn't appear to be an in-game function to count them).

At the moment, the map can be played as a random map either in the default theme or in any other theme (it will work with DW:U Extended, for example). I included all the ancient homeworld systems of the vanilla races and also those of Haree's extended races. However, when playing a customised random game on the map, I've found it never happens that any of the empires start at their ancient homewolds (although they do sometimes start at someone else's ancient homeworld). For example, if you want to play a human empire starting at Sol, it just won't happen. I tried loading the game several dozen times, and I never got a game with the humans at Sol. I tried adjusting the Sol system to see if I could force it to happen, to no avail.

So the only way I can see to force races to start in the correct position is by means of scenarios. That's ok, because I see scenarios as the main use of the map. Unfortunatelty, there's another problem: if you create the empires in the correct position, and give them a prewarp start, the amount of starting caslon at their homeworld is insufficient to get to another star system, unless you manage the caslon resource very carefully. You have to have a caslon source in your home system, and you have to prioritise mining it. Most often, the AI fails to do this and is stranded.

I submitted a post about this in tech support here:

tm.asp?m=3647365

If anyone thinks I'm missing something, please let me know.

I'd intended to release the map with a pre-warp scenario, but it presently looks like this will not be possble. You could still use the map to create non-pre-warp scenarios, but that doesn't interest me so much.

So what I intend to do is to wait a few days to see whether anyone has any ideas about how to solve this problem, or, failing that, to see whether Matrix says they will fix it. If it can't be solved or fixed, then I'll issue the map, as is, and others can do what they want with it.

Thanks,

Osito
Osito
User avatar
Radishgast
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:08 pm

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by Radishgast »

Beautiful work, sir! I look forward to trying this.
User avatar
Haree78
Posts: 1269
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 7:58 am

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by Haree78 »

Very interested to see the final product and where you will be placing the races :)
ParagonExile
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:56 pm

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by ParagonExile »

And here I was, hoping you'd go with the "local area" idea.

Bah, look at me complaining about your many hours of hard work. I'll give it a try and let you know how it goes!

PS, is it possible to edit the nebulae?
User avatar
Osito
Posts: 878
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 8:55 am

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by Osito »

As far as I know, it is not possible to edit the nebulas. In fact, I created the map around a particular set of nebulas, then I found that whenever you load the map into a new customised game (as opposed to loading the map as a scenario from the /maps folder), it resets the position of all the nebulas. So all my work setting the stars around the nebulas was for nothing. I have asked Matrix to look at this in several different posts, but I have never seen any official response from them. I expect they have taken it on board, but as far as I know I am almost the only person pressing for changes to the editing functions, so I expect I'm a long way down the list.

I would have liked to have done a local map with everything in the right direction and distance, but what set me against it was: (1) my OP promised the 'galaxy', and I thought I should aim to deliver what I had originally promised; (2) even a local space map makes heavy compromises.

Let me give you an example regarding point (2): if you do a 2D map with all stars projected onto the galactic plane, Tau Ceti (11.9 light years from Sol) and Beta Comae Berenices (30 light years from Sol) both come out closer than Alpha Centauri (4.4 light years from Sol). If instead, you extend the distance of these stars from Sol so that they are the correct distance relative to Alpha Centauri, then you end up making stars adjacent to each other on the 2D map, even though, in reality, the stars might be hundreds of light years apart - Alpha Fornacis and Delta Leonis would appear almost adjacent on the 2D map, but they are around 100 light years apart in reality, because one is above the galactic plane and the other below.

Thus, even a local map cannot give you a playing space which is in any sense an accurate map of the nearby stars. In the end, whatever approach I took was going to involve compromises, and I preferred the idea of playing on a 'galactic' scale rather than a local one, especially as the edge of the galaxy is (for me at least) a more convincing explanation for having a border to the game.

Another point is that having a whole galaxy provides a more diverse galaxy. In a local space of, say, 1000 light year radius from Sol, there are no known black holes. So, if I wanted any black holes I would need to invent them. No neutron stars either, so I would have to have invented them too. Also, the stars would have been spread rather homogeneously around the playing area in local space. On the other hand, a whole galaxy allows you to have the stars concentrated in spirals [yes, I know that's not realistic, but it 'looks' more realistic :)], and to have a heavy concentration of stars (including black holes) in the centre. I even had space to throw in a couple of 'globular clusters' some distance from the main part of the galaxy.

I'd still like to do a local space map some time, but I'd rather wait to see whether Matrix will improve the editor before doing it. I really have felt that I was fighting the editing tools at every stage of the process, and then when I had finally completed it to find that I couldn't even set up a pre-warp scenario was a bit of a blow.

Osito

PS It was also a bit of a blow that the server timed me out just as I was making this post for the first time :-(
Osito
Imperius
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:49 am

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by Imperius »

Awesome work :)

May have to re-do the Babylon 5 scenario I made using this map!
ParagonExile
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:56 pm

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by ParagonExile »

ORIGINAL: Osito

As far as I know, it is not possible to edit the nebulas. In fact, I created the map around a particular set of nebulas, then I found that whenever you load the map into a new customised game (as opposed to loading the map as a scenario from the /maps folder), it resets the position of all the nebulas. So all my work setting the stars around the nebulas was for nothing. I have asked Matrix to look at this in several different posts, but I have never seen any official response from them. I expect they have taken it on board, but as far as I know I am almost the only person pressing for changes to the editing functions, so I expect I'm a long way down the list.

I would have liked to have done a local map with everything in the right direction and distance, but what set me against it was: (1) my OP promised the 'galaxy', and I thought I should aim to deliver what I had originally promised; (2) even a local space map makes heavy compromises.

Let me give you an example regarding point (2): if you do a 2D map with all stars projected onto the galactic plane, Tau Ceti (11.9 light years from Sol) and Beta Comae Berenices (30 light years from Sol) both come out closer than Alpha Centauri (4.4 light years from Sol). If instead, you extend the distance of these stars from Sol so that they are the correct distance relative to Alpha Centauri, then you end up making stars adjacent to each other on the 2D map, even though, in reality, the stars might be hundreds of light years apart - Alpha Fornacis and Delta Leonis would appear almost adjacent on the 2D map, but they are around 100 light years apart in reality, because one is above the galactic plane and the other below.

Thus, even a local map cannot give you a playing space which is in any sense an accurate map of the nearby stars. In the end, whatever approach I took was going to involve compromises, and I preferred the idea of playing on a 'galactic' scale rather than a local one, especially as the edge of the galaxy is (for me at least) a more convincing explanation for having a border to the game.

Another point is that having a whole galaxy provides a more diverse galaxy. In a local space of, say, 1000 light year radius from Sol, there are no known black holes. So, if I wanted any black holes I would need to invent them. No neutron stars either, so I would have to have invented them too. Also, the stars would have been spread rather homogeneously around the playing area in local space. On the other hand, a whole galaxy allows you to have the stars concentrated in spirals [yes, I know that's not realistic, but it 'looks' more realistic :)], and to have a heavy concentration of stars (including black holes) in the centre. I even had space to throw in a couple of 'globular clusters' some distance from the main part of the galaxy.

I'd still like to do a local space map some time, but I'd rather wait to see whether Matrix will improve the editor before doing it. I really have felt that I was fighting the editing tools at every stage of the process, and then when I had finally completed it to find that I couldn't even set up a pre-warp scenario was a bit of a blow.

Osito

PS It was also a bit of a blow that the server timed me out just as I was making this post for the first time :-(

You'd save yourself a lot of trouble by just taking into consideration absolute distance from Sol and general heading. Rule #1 of strategy gaming; don't make your job harder than it has to be :)

We're not astronomers or stellar cartographers, we're dumb; we'll see the local stars and our mouths will go agape.
User avatar
Osito
Posts: 878
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 8:55 am

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by Osito »

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile

ORIGINAL: Osito

As far as I know, it is not possible to edit the nebulas. In fact, I created the map around a particular set of nebulas, then I found that whenever you load the map into a new customised game (as opposed to loading the map as a scenario from the /maps folder), it resets the position of all the nebulas. So all my work setting the stars around the nebulas was for nothing. I have asked Matrix to look at this in several different posts, but I have never seen any official response from them. I expect they have taken it on board, but as far as I know I am almost the only person pressing for changes to the editing functions, so I expect I'm a long way down the list.

I would have liked to have done a local map with everything in the right direction and distance, but what set me against it was: (1) my OP promised the 'galaxy', and I thought I should aim to deliver what I had originally promised; (2) even a local space map makes heavy compromises.

Let me give you an example regarding point (2): if you do a 2D map with all stars projected onto the galactic plane, Tau Ceti (11.9 light years from Sol) and Beta Comae Berenices (30 light years from Sol) both come out closer than Alpha Centauri (4.4 light years from Sol). If instead, you extend the distance of these stars from Sol so that they are the correct distance relative to Alpha Centauri, then you end up making stars adjacent to each other on the 2D map, even though, in reality, the stars might be hundreds of light years apart - Alpha Fornacis and Delta Leonis would appear almost adjacent on the 2D map, but they are around 100 light years apart in reality, because one is above the galactic plane and the other below.

Thus, even a local map cannot give you a playing space which is in any sense an accurate map of the nearby stars. In the end, whatever approach I took was going to involve compromises, and I preferred the idea of playing on a 'galactic' scale rather than a local one, especially as the edge of the galaxy is (for me at least) a more convincing explanation for having a border to the game.

Another point is that having a whole galaxy provides a more diverse galaxy. In a local space of, say, 1000 light year radius from Sol, there are no known black holes. So, if I wanted any black holes I would need to invent them. No neutron stars either, so I would have to have invented them too. Also, the stars would have been spread rather homogeneously around the playing area in local space. On the other hand, a whole galaxy allows you to have the stars concentrated in spirals [yes, I know that's not realistic, but it 'looks' more realistic :)], and to have a heavy concentration of stars (including black holes) in the centre. I even had space to throw in a couple of 'globular clusters' some distance from the main part of the galaxy.

I'd still like to do a local space map some time, but I'd rather wait to see whether Matrix will improve the editor before doing it. I really have felt that I was fighting the editing tools at every stage of the process, and then when I had finally completed it to find that I couldn't even set up a pre-warp scenario was a bit of a blow.

Osito

PS It was also a bit of a blow that the server timed me out just as I was making this post for the first time :-(

You'd save yourself a lot of trouble by just taking into consideration absolute distance from Sol and general heading. Rule #1 of strategy gaming; don't make your job harder than it has to be :)

We're not astronomers or stellar cartographers, we're dumb; we'll see the local stars and our mouths will go agape.

Ok, well in my 'galactic map' the heading is correct for all 'real stars' in the galactic plane, and the distance is relatively correct (thought a but fudged). Anyway, I should have an upload within a few days. so everyone can form their own view, and amend the base map if they wish. :)

Osito
Osito
User avatar
tjhkkr
Posts: 2431
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:15 pm
Contact:

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by tjhkkr »

I am impressed.
Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.
User avatar
Solarius Scorch
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 6:55 pm
Location: Cracow, Poland
Contact:

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by Solarius Scorch »

ORIGINAL: Osito

Unfortunatelty, there's another problem: if you create the empires in the correct position, and give them a prewarp start, the amount of starting caslon at their homeworld is insufficient to get to another star system, unless you manage the caslon resource very carefully. You have to have a caslon source in your home system, and you have to prioritise mining it. Most often, the AI fails to do this and is stranded.

Can't they just order caslon to be delivered by smuggling? I don't know how the AI handles this.
Forever Future 1.7 for Call to Power - the biggest mod for the best Civilization-like game ever!
User avatar
Osito
Posts: 878
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 8:55 am

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by Osito »

ORIGINAL: Solarius Scorch

Can't they just order caslon to be delivered by smuggling? I don't know how the AI handles this.

Perhaps, but I was trying to build a scenario which didn't have pirates at the start. Anyway, I found a work-around: you can use the event editor as a mechanism for creating new empires, and empires created this way do seem to have a healthy supply of resources.

In case anyone is interested in progress, the map itself is pretty much complete, but, as reported in the tech forum, it crashes every single time within about 40 years of game time. I'm hoping that the reason is that there are too many stars (i.e., more than 1400 - I only kept a rough count when building the map, and there's no in game function to count them), in which case it's an easy fix; I'm checking this out at the moment.

If I can fix the crash, then I will release the map, together with a scenario tailored for the vanilla races, and another tailored for Haree78's 'Extended' theme. I hope this will happen over the weekend.

On the other hand, if I can't fix it, then I'll upload the file to the Matrix FTP Server, along with a bug report. Anyone who is interested can then download it and play with it, but I think I'll be done with it.

Osito
Osito
feygan
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:41 am

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by feygan »

While it is good that you have managed to at least get some form of workaround, it is tragic that it is simply a band aid to what sounds like a major problem. The more I look over the modding forums the more issues I can see with just how bad DW is at being modded. I can understand that perhaps the original game simply wasn't built with modding in mind and just doesn't allow for it. But to put out grand statements of how open the DWU expansion is and then actually put out a product the contradicts that statement can only be doing long term harm to DW.
User avatar
Osito
Posts: 878
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 8:55 am

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by Osito »

ORIGINAL: feygan

While it is good that you have managed to at least get some form of workaround, it is tragic that it is simply a band aid to what sounds like a major problem. The more I look over the modding forums the more issues I can see with just how bad DW is at being modded. I can understand that perhaps the original game simply wasn't built with modding in mind and just doesn't allow for it. But to put out grand statements of how open the DWU expansion is and then actually put out a product the contradicts that statement can only be doing long term harm to DW.

I can only really talk with any authority about the game editor, as that's the only part of the modding facilities that I have used much, but there are many many things that could be improved in the editor. Some examples are:

1. We should be able to select a system name before creating the system, so all the planets automatically take the system name.
2. We should be able to add and remove nebulas. The lack of any ability to do this means that whenever a map is used in a new game, all the nebula positions change.
3. We should be able to select the type of main sequence star that we want. When setting up my map, I spent ages placing/deleting stars, in order to get the right colour.
4. There should be a star count. Furthermore, the game should not let you set up galaxies which won't run. If the game crashes with more than 1400 stars, then don't allow more than 1400 to be added. If the total number of objects matters (somewhere the game info says 'up to 50,000'), there should be an 'object' count too.
5. It should be possible to start with a blank canvas containing no empires. It is annoying to have to create a 100 star galaxy, then delete them all. It's also annoying that you have to leave the player empire on the map. When you load my map in a scenario it tells you that it is a 100 star galaxy (even though it's got 1370 stars), because I started off with a 100 star galaxy, to make it quicker to delete all the unwanted stars.
6. It should be possible to cut and paste star systems and planets.
7. The lack of ability to tab between the fields in the editor is a pain.
8. I don't want the fledgling human empire to have any aculon. Wtf is aculon? We should be able to set the starting resources of the empires.
9. We should be able to change set up options like difficulty, colonisation range, etc. from within the editor. It's silly that when you're setting up a scenario you're stuck with your initial choices, and can't change them without redoing the whole scenario.
10. You should be able to load maps into themes other than the one you created it in. Although it is possible to do this, you have check the box for regenerating resources.
11. It should be possible to set at least the starting position of your own empire and preferably that of other empires (without having to create a specific scenario).
12. There should be a more refined sector grid to make it easier to place star systems in the right place. I had to put a transparent overlay on my monitor to do this.
13. The supernova bug still needs fixing.
14. When placing star systems, it's fine that planets/moons are added, but asteroids shouldn't be added automatically, as it takes ages to edit them out.

These are just the things that immediately came to mind.

Osito
Osito
Hannable
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:37 am

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by Hannable »

I know this is kind of a minor issue, but I also think that the game should include blue giants and supergiants (Vega, Rigel, Deneb) as well as white main sequence stars (Sirius). There seems to be only red, yellow, and orange at the moment. The only white stars are the neutron stars and white dwarves.

If you're going through the fuss and bother of getting the real-life star color correct, it's all for naught, really, without the blue and white colors.
"Only one human captain has survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else." - Delenn of Minbar
User avatar
Osito
Posts: 878
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 8:55 am

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by Osito »

ORIGINAL: Hannable

I know this is kind of a minor issue, but I also think that the game should include blue giants and supergiants (Vega, Rigel, Deneb) as well as white main sequence stars (Sirius). There seems to be only red, yellow, and orange at the moment. The only white stars are the neutron stars and white dwarves.

If you're going through the fuss and bother of getting the real-life star color correct, it's all for naught, really, without the blue and white colors.

Yes, I would also like to see that. There is no way to get blue stars, but the lightest end of the main sequence stars are more or less white: they look white on the galaxy map and in the system view. I just had to make all the blue stars the same colour as the white ones.

It looks like the map is back on. After counting the stars, I found I had about 1500, so I deleted 150 of them (which was no big deal, as they were mostly gas clouds - however, the map now has almost no gas clouds). The game seems to run with reasonable stability - previously it always crashed within 40 game years. I have had the occasional crash, but most times the game will run on auto for over 200 game years without crashing (at which point I generally quit and start again). I can't guarantee no crashes - in fact, I still think there's something buggy somewhere in the map - but it seems to run fairly reliably.

Osito
Osito
ParagonExile
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:56 pm

RE: GSP: Galactic Starmap Project

Post by ParagonExile »

Osito, man, don't taunt me with a wait like this. I'm jiggling with anticipation
Post Reply

Return to “Design and Modding”