No Path to Kunming for Resource

[WarHunter]

Japan owns Kunming factory. Has a road/railroad to Kunming from the interior of China.

The program states there is no valid path.

[WarHunter]

save file

[paulderynck]

The way the rule about the Burma Road is written, one can easily conclude that only the Allies can use it. In the save, the Allies control Hanoi so that's the only way JP can get a resource to Kunming.

Steve would have to confirm if it is coded that way.

[Centuur]

Let's see what RAW says:

9. Resources to China - Allied major powers can’t give resources
to China until you choose this entry option. In future turns, each
major power can give up to 5 resources a turn (no limit once that
major power is at war with Japan). The US can use its convoy
points to transport resources to China from the USA.
Choosing this entry option opens the Burma road. It then counts
as a railway for moving resources and build points (only) into
China (not out). The scenario information (see 24.) will tell you
whether the Burma Road starts the game open or closed.


Question 1: what is meant by "opening" the Birma Road. Is the road there before this option is chosen or not. We all presume that it is there and can be used for supply reasons, but is it? You can easily defend the opinion that the Birma road doesn't exist before this option is chosen (that is is being build and is not usable before this option is chosen). That would mean that you can't get supply through the Birma Road before this option is chosen, which runs from Birma towards the city of Changsha. Neither for Chinese or for Japanese HQ's...

Question 2: Can you transport a resource by using the Birma Road into China and than out of China again via another route? Or is this not allowed. What if the Japanese rail the Birmese oil into China and it goes than further towards Japan accross the China Sea (after conquest of China).


6. Japan forces closure of Burma Road - the Burma Road is one
way that the Allies can transport resources (see 13.3.2, entry
option 9) and build points (entry option 17) to China. The Axis
can close it by physical occupation but Japan can also close it by
diplomatic pressure on the Commonwealth.
If Japan does this, an Allied major power can’t transport
resources or build points to China via the Burma Road or French
Indo-China until it is at war with Japan or the USA chooses US
entry option 24. China can still use the road to transport its own
resources.
You only have to roll a die for diplomatic closure of the Burma
Road, not for physical closure.

Question 3: Does this mean that the Axis can't use the Birma Road for resource transportation into China? - I don't think so, because closure means that the Allied side can't use the road (this is mentioned in the rules. Otherwise the word "allied" is superfluous...). However, it can be defended that this is the case.

And finally:

Question 4: If the allies don't open the Birma Road, can the Axis still use it for resource transportation if they have conquered Kunming/China and Birma?

All questions, not answered in the FAQ. Of minor importance, but still...

[paulderynck]

True and relayed to the rules group. Still, for now, the question is how was MWiF coded with respect to this?

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

True and relayed to the rules group. Still, for now, the question is how was MWiF coded with respect to this?

To my knowledge, it seems that the Birma road is coded as if it were a normal road, regarding all this issues. The only thing I didn't test is if you can move a resource towards Birma using this road...

[WarHunter]

So the Burma Road is defined as the road from:
Burma to Changsha?
Burma to Kunming?
Burma to Kweiyang?

Where is it defined that the Burma Road is a One Way Road?

I have checked and can confirm.
If the Japanese player places a ZoC on the road/RR going into Indo China. It cuts all resources going to Kunming and Kweiyang.
That is called shenanigans. The board game never had that interpretation that I recall.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

So the Burma Road is defined as the road from:
Burma to Changsha?
Burma to Kunming?
Burma to Kweiyang?

It's all the road hexes between Burma and Kweiyang.

Where is it defined that the Burma Road is a One Way Road?

This is in RAW 13.3.2 US Entry Option 9: "It then counts as a railway for moving resources and build points (only) into China (not out)."

I have checked and can confirm.
If the Japanese player places a ZoC on the road/RR going into Indo China. It cuts all resources going to Kunming and Kweiyang.
That is called shenanigans. The board game never had that interpretation that I recall.

I'd call that a very liberal interpretation (that I've never heard of either). I assume that in your research that is military closure, with the road already either never closed politically or re-opened politically?

[WarHunter]

Thanks for the reply.

Yes it was a military closure. Going check one more element of the Road closure.

[WarHunter]

My previous attempt to interdict the Road/RR included a ZoC into Changcha.

On purpose i left the RR/Road free of ZoC at Changsha to allow the resource at 90, 138 to be used.
It can be matched with the factory at Kweiyang. It will not allow Kunming to be used. Thats something in China's favor.

When the Burma road is cut by using US entry.
Can resources still be sent into Kunming from Indo China along the RR?

[Orm]

When the Burma road is cut by using US entry.
Can resources still be sent into Kunming from Indo China along the RR?

I have not tested if MWIF allows this but the rules forbid resources to be transported to China via the railroad in Indo-China when the road is diplomatically closed.

Cut from RAC:

13.3.3 US entry actions
....
6. Japan forces closure of Burma Road - the Burma Road is one way that the Allies can transport resources
(see 13.3.2, entry option 9) and build points (entry option 17) to China. The Axis can close it by physical
occupation but Japan can also close it by diplomatic pressure on the Commonwealth.
If Japan does this, an Allied major power can’t transport resources or build points to China via the Burma
Road or French Indo-China until it is at war with Japan or the USA chooses US entry option 24. China can
still use the road to transport its own resources. You only have to roll a die for diplomatic closure of the Burma Road,
not for physical closure.

[WarHunter]

ORIGINAL: Orm

When the Burma road is cut by using US entry.
Can resources still be sent into Kunming from Indo China along the RR?

I have not tested if MWIF allows this but the rules forbid resources to be transported to China via the railroad in Indo-China when the road is diplomatically closed.

Cut from RAC:

13.3.3 US entry actions
....
6. Japan forces closure of Burma Road - the Burma Road is one way that the Allies can transport resources
(see 13.3.2, entry option 9) and build points (entry option 17) to China. The Axis can close it by physical
occupation but Japan can also close it by diplomatic pressure on the Commonwealth.
If Japan does this, an Allied major power can’t transport resources or build points to China via the Burma
Road or French Indo-China until it is at war with Japan or the USA chooses US entry option 24. China can
still use the road to transport its own resources. You only have to roll a die for diplomatic closure of the Burma Road,
not for physical closure.

This quote makes it clear that resource transportation inside china is possible along the road.
It seems the section of road from Kweiyang to Kunming is in question.

If China can use it for that purpose. Could not Japan also?

[Centuur]

To me, it sounds logical that they can. But let's wait what the rules committee comes up with...

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

So the Burma Road is defined as the road from:
Burma to Changsha?
Burma to Kunming?
Burma to Kweiyang?

It's all the road hexes between Burma and Kweiyang.

No it isn't. Here is the FAQ:


Q:
How long is the Burma Road? Does it
extend only from Burma to Kunming or
does it go the full length of the road shown
on the map (ie. through Kwei-Yang and
onwards). Makes it real easy for the Japs
to close if it continues on.

A.
It continues on, but obviously militarily, the
Japanese can only close what they control.
Date 30/01/1997

So the Birma Road stops at Changsha and not at Kwei-Yang...

[paulderynck]

Right of course. That's what I get for going by memory rather than looking at the map. Confused Kweiyang with Changsha.

Harry determined with input from the Rules Committee that any power should be able to use the road as a road if meeting the conditions for use (i.e. no enemy ZoCs along the way, which BTW should be how military closure is defined) and all the other restrictions only apply to China.

However this issue is likely outstanding in terms of MWiF coding. It should be worked on soon though, since Production is the current focus.

[Centuur]

To answer my questions:

1. The Road is always there, whether it's opened by the Allies or not. Restrictions on the transportation of resources only apply to China receiving or sending resources and not to all other Major Powers.

2. Yes

3. No

4. Yes

[paulderynck]

Excellent answers! ...where are the questions?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I received two saved games related to the Burma Road, so I'll post a screenshot for each of those games. In both cases the program was correct.

From RAC 13.3.3, #6 Japan Forces Closure of the Burma Road:
"The Allies may not use the railroad from Hanoi to send lend lease to China if the Burma Road is closed due to political pressure by the Japanese."

Note in the screenshot that the Burma Road is colored white, which means it is Closed. If it were Open, it would be colored green. China has one idle factory (Kunming) and one idle resource (Hanoi). Although France is sending the resource to China, there is no path to the factory because the Burma Road is Closed.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here is the second saved game, with the Japanese controlling Kunming. The player stated that the resource in Hanoi could not be sent to Kunming. I think he meant the the resource in Hainan, since the US controls the resource in Hanoi.

Note that the Burma Road is Open (green), but that doesn't matter. None of the Japanese Idle resources can reach Kunming. If you look at the insert Global map, you'll see that there are no Axis convoys in the South China Sea or the China Sea. And the ones in the Japanese Coast are of no help in getting the idle resources to mainland China (where they might be able to reach Kunming.

[paulderynck]

What's wrong with the Japanese controlled resource southwest of Changsha?

Edit: or the one northeast of Nanning?