Research Reloaded - [DWU][WIP][beta soon] New huge research tree, new everything

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: lurchi
About the AI, I sure do think about this. I'll bring more diversity into Universe, but the research paths stay quite simple, actually. Also we now can take the AI by the hand using the Research Order system. I hope Icemania will help with that, he's quite involved with that matter.

Certainly will.

Please be careful with weapons that require massive investments of research in other chains. I'm not necessarily against that, but to justify that extra cost, there needs to be a benefit. A good example in Vanilla was Torpedo Bombers, where you also have to research Missiles and Missile Bombers to an extent i.e. in addition to Torpedoes and Torpedo Bombers! I've broken that link in the AI Improvement Mod.

Also please include Colonisation Rebalanced. I've included this in the AI Improvement Mod, with research costs balanced to become feasible. Feel free to use that.

Maybe extra and improved Wonders as well. Extended has a lot of extra races and there aren't enough Wonders to go around.

[Unforeseen]

Icemania you tested the death ray against torpedoes. Not only are they completely different weapons categorically but torpedoes are actually noted as being OVERPOWERED to begin with. Not a very good example.

Better to test the DR against other beam weapons like the phaser and assault blaster.

[lurchi]

ORIGINAL: Unforeseen

OMG that is EPIC!!!

Thanks. [:)]
I plan to redo all entangled research areas like this. One reason is added flavour, the other that I want to see different races using different tech. Not just weapons, but also drives and reactors.

ORIGINAL: Unforeseen

One of the things that makes this mode interesting to me is the variables placed on every empire in the game during the phase regarding pirates.
[..]
on the other hand it helps players who exploit things like tax levels to give themselves a huge boost in population and tax gain... because the AI won't be "as far" behind.

There should be a penalty for setting the taxrate to 0. The higher birthrate suggests people have more free time for , so what about the populace slowly getting lazy causing the planets research points and construction speed to drop. Would be no problem for new colonies with low population, but sure a big problem for high populace worlds and especially at game start.

[ParagonExile]

ORIGINAL: lurchi
There should be a penalty for setting the taxrate to 0. The higher birthrate suggests people have more free time for , so what about the populace slowly getting lazy causing the planets research points and construction speed to drop. Would be no problem for new colonies with low population, but sure a big problem for high populace worlds and especially at game start.

I imagine that is hard-coded and difficult to change [:(]

[lurchi]

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile

If I might make one more suggestion, try coming up with unique tech names for each tech, it adds a ton of personality and makes the tree much more interesting than if you just use "enhanced" or "advanced" for everything.

Just my 2 cents. Hope it goes well!

Suggestions are always welcome.
I have that planned for later once the framework is done. I wanted two have upgrades for each tech and this was the quick and dirty way. [:D]

[lurchi]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Actually I've balance tested the Death Ray. It needs a buff ... not a nerf.

Now that's unexpected. K.

ORIGINAL: Icemania

What I'd really like is a Super Weapon for each and every branch of the Weapons tech tree.

Yeah, I'd love to do so, but like I already said:

ORIGINAL: lurchi

We think very similar about the planet destroyers, actually. I wanted to make a planet buster as endtech for the energy weapons, rockets and torpedoes. At first it seemed like a good idea, but there's a big problem. The game only knows one single planet destroying weapon. There are no templates for planet destroyers at all so we can't take the various races by the hand to show them how to do it. I'm afraid this won't work out without some help from Elliot. [&:]

[&o] We beseech thee, O Elliot. [&o]

Maybe we can work this out. Sure would be epic.

[Unforeseen]

What actually makes it destroy the planet? Haven't really looked at it so I have no clue

Also, I was looking at the tech tree and had a thought...perhaps point defense weapons should be in the energy weapon tree. It doesn't really make sense for them to be attached to the concussion missile since its not a missile weapon and doesn't shoot down missiles that I know of. Attach to Enhanced Beam Weapons maybe?

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Unforeseen

Icemania you tested the death ray against torpedoes. Not only are they completely different weapons categorically but torpedoes are actually noted as being OVERPOWERED to begin with. Not a very good example.

Better to test the DR against other beam weapons like the phaser and assault blaster.

Yee of little faith! You've only read my published tests.

I also pitting two Gizurean Capital Ships against other. Same design, optimised specifically for Titan Beams ... except that one had the Death Ray (and hence less Titan Beams). The Death Ray ship lost every time.

Why? Well a couple of reasons.

The range of the Death Ray is really short ... only 440. If it hits early when the ships start close together it provided a decent Alpha Strike but not enough to be decisive against late game technology. Then the AI ships always move away from each other as the default tactic is "All Weapons" and the Death Ray often plays little or no part in the rest of the engagement. Even worse, the Titan Beam only ship tries to run away to Standoff (due to the firepower difference being > 30%), which gives it another advantage, as their Beams need to travel less before hitting due to the enemy ship movement.

Now, if we could Mod Ship Tactics, what if the Death Ray ship was Point Blank? Well ... I tested that as well ... it still lost! Why? The close range DPS of Titan Beams is better than the Death Ray.

If short, as a researchable technology, Death Rays are a complete and utter waste of time, even though they are at the end of the Tech Tree.

Now I used to think Torpedoes were OVERPOWERED as well. Give me the ability to Mod Ship Tactics in the Design Templates and my AI Point Blank Tactic Titan Beam Ships (where I can fit extra engines and still maintain a higher close range DPS ... particularly because the Sluken use them with their special engines) will kick your bot bot.

[lurchi]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: lurchi
About the AI, I sure do think about this. I'll bring more diversity into Universe, but the research paths stay quite simple, actually. Also we now can take the AI by the hand using the Research Order system. I hope Icemania will help with that, he's quite involved with that matter.

Certainly will.

Great!

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Please be careful with weapons that require massive investments of research in other chains. I'm not necessarily against that, but to justify that extra cost, there needs to be a benefit. A good example in Vanilla was Torpedo Bombers, where you also have to research Missiles and Missile Bombers to an extent i.e. in addition to Torpedoes and Torpedo Bombers! I've broken that link in the AI Improvement Mod.

I'll do exactly that.

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Also please include Colonisation Rebalanced. I've included this in the AI Improvement Mod, with research costs balanced to become feasible. Feel free to use that.

Maybe extra and improved Wonders as well. Extended has a lot of extra races and there aren't enough Wonders to go around.

Including Colonisation Rebalanced was planned right from the start. The more wonders mod as well, once dwaine is done balancing it, dunno if V0.4 will be his last update. I also might look into more governments and facilities.

[Unforeseen]

Lol , well in that case it does need a buff. Maybe range idk. Still rather it be removed though.

[Blackstork]

Lurchi, great job so far, as i said in AI mod thread and in others - best to work towards compatibility and integration of AI mod, Research mod and Beyond mod into one big megamod.

We are dabbing with racial Goverments there, new races with unique techs/mechanics, and huge improvement into character area - creatin unique portraits for different characters and overhauling character system with additional of race-specific language naming.

I would be glad if you check that time to time, because its the place where we build for sidegrade usage system, where sidegrades could provide better options for certain races, making different races gameplay more distinct and special , with its own optimal choices/picks and reasoning, even from pool of 50 races.

Also i have question, since i am less into tech tree modding: Can you by modding assign goverment which unlocked by certain tech?
Also question : can you limit fitting of certain module to certain class of ships?

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: lurchi
Maybe we can work this out. Sure would be epic.

I was thinking the equivalent of Death Rays rather than Super Lasers for each branch ...

[lurchi]

ORIGINAL: Unforeseen

What actually makes it destroy the planet? Haven't really looked at it so I have no clue

I guess it's the huge damage (30000) of the superlaser that does the trick. I sure hope so. If it's hardcoded there's not much I can do.

ORIGINAL: Unforeseen

Also, I was looking at the tech tree and had a thought...perhaps point defense weapons should be in the energy weapon tree. It doesn't really make sense for them to be attached to the concussion missile since its not a missile weapon and doesn't shoot down missiles that I know of. Attach to Enhanced Beam Weapons maybe?

I want to give them their very own tree, but I dunno if that'd cause the AI not researching it. This needs testing.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Unforeseen
Lol , well in that case it does need a buff. Maybe range idk.

If they open up Ship Tactics to modding, I'll have to redo all of the Weapon Balancing, as it's based on the tactics the AI actually uses at the moment. Maybe the buff I've provided in the AI Improvement Mod is then too much.

[Unforeseen]

I'll adjust the PD Weapons to their own tree tonight and run a few tests.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: lurchi
I want to give them their very own tree, but I dunno if that'd cause the AI not researching it. This needs testing.

If it's in Research.txt then it has an item number and I can include it in the Build Order.

I would keep it in Weapons though to avoid an unbalance between each Research Branch.

[lurchi]

ORIGINAL: Blackstork

I would be glad if you check that time to time, because its the place where we build for sidegrade usage system, where sidegrades could provide better options for certain races, making different races gameplay more distinct and special , with its own optimal choices/picks and reasoning, even from pool of 50 races.

Sure, will do as soon as I find some more free time.

ORIGINAL: Blackstork

Also i have question, since i am less into tech tree modding: Can you by modding assign goverment which unlocked by certain tech?
Also question : can you limit fitting of certain module to certain class of ships?

1) Good question. So far I found no indication that it's possible, but I'll check it out.
2) No, if there is enough place anything goes. If you want certain components only on larger ships you could either make them very big and/or consume a lot of energy so you need more reactors.

[lurchi]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: lurchi
Maybe we can work this out. Sure would be epic.

I was thinking the equivalent of Death Rays rather than Super Lasers for each branch ...

Well, I wanted an equivalent for both of them. Death Ray pendants only would be easy, but I'd sure like to see different planet busters as well.

[lurchi]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

If they open up Ship Tactics to modding

I sure hope so. Also tractor beam settings.

[lurchi]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: lurchi
I want to give them their very own tree, but I dunno if that'd cause the AI not researching it. This needs testing.

If it's in Research.txt then it has an item number and I can include it in the Build Order.

I would keep it in Weapons though to avoid an unbalance between each Research Branch.

Perfect. [8D]