Overrun Issues

[Zorachus99]

Game Type: Solitaire
Scenario: Barbarossa
Optionals: 2d10 – overrun chart use, Offensive Chit

Issue: Using a offensive chit on Guderian gives 8 points which can be used to double attacking units during overrun or combat.

In the example here, first two points are spent on the 9-6 Arm, and 9-5 Mech, but not the Division.
All three units move together as a stack using CTRL Right-Click after the two offensive points are used.
The first overrun is successful in step 1. However, the rules state, I am able to continue moving because I am not in ZOC, therefore can proceed to move my stack from step 1 to step 2. In Step 2, I move into ZOC and must stop unless I overrun again. Here is the problem. There is no way to allocate additional offensive points to the moving units as they are ‘stuck’ to your hand. In fact, wherever you place them is where they end up.
Is there a workaround, or is it impossible for the same stack to overrun twice?

Edit: My awesome special effects cover up the 4-1 garr intended for the second overrun.

[Zorachus99]

Saved Game

[Joseignacio]

11.11.6 Overruns
Land units can sometimes destroy enemy units during movement. They do this by entering the enemy hex and declaring an overrun.
You can only conduct an overrun with a single unit, or with a single stack of units that started the land movement (or Advancing after combat, see 11.16.5) step together.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

11.11.6 Overruns
Land units can sometimes destroy enemy units during movement. They do this by entering the enemy hex and declaring an overrun.
You can only conduct an overrun with a single unit, or with a single stack of units that started the land movement (or Advancing after combat, see 11.16.5) step together.

That rule is not violated in his example.

[Centuur]

It's a bug.

[WarHunter]

Went ahead and downloaded your save game.

The rules do not say you cannot attempt more than 1 overrun. But the use of the offensive chit is where you will find your problem. I think this explains your inability to overrun the second unit with the same stack. Hope this helps figure it out.

The rule states the following:

If you play an offensive chit at the start of a land action, specify 1 of your organized HQs. You gain the following benefits: Ç You can double the combat factors of this major power’s land units within range of the HQ when you calculate the final odds for the overrun or land combat. You can do this for as many units in the impulse as twice the HQ’s reorganization value. You can double the same unit in more than one overrun or land combat but it counts against the total each time.
You can only double each unit once per overrun or land combat;
and Ç Every land unit reorganized by that HQ only costs half the usual reorganization point cost (see 11.18.4). AsA option 3: You can also double field artillery (see 22.4.2) combat factors for ground support or receive an extra die roll during ground strike.

[Courtenay]

Yes, and he is making two different overruns; he can double on both of them, at the cost of using four of his doublings. (Two for the first overrun and two for the second.) He is unable to figure out any way to allocate the second set of doublings, and so can not do the second, legal, overrun.

[Centuur]

I think you make a rule interpretation mistake.

You can double a unit as much as you like. You can double it for an overrun, a second overrun, a third overrun and finally a land combat if you like. It only cost 4 in the number of units the HQ can double, since each time you double a unit, it counts for usage of the offensive.

However, I conclude this isn't a bug (I know, earlier I said that it was a bug. I'm wrong, I believe). A unit needs to be in range of the HQ to be doubled. The hex the second overrun takes place in, isn't within range of vRundstedt. The four hex range is blocked by the 3-1 GAR, making it a five hex range...

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

11.11.6 Overruns
Land units can sometimes destroy enemy units during movement. They do this by entering the enemy hex and declaring an overrun.
You can only conduct an overrun with a single unit, or with a single stack of units that started the land movement (or Advancing after combat, see 11.16.5) step together.

That rule is not violated in his example.

Paul and Centuur you are right. I was very sure in this one, but I was wrong. I translated it into Spanish as "Sólo puedes hacer un arrollamiento con ..." which would translate as well as "You can only conduct one overrun ..."

I think it's a typical error in translation/interpretation for spanixh speakers.

[WarHunter]

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

Yes, and he is making two different overruns; he can double on both of them, at the cost of using four of his doublings. (Two for the first overrun and two for the second.) He is unable to figure out any way to allocate the second set of doublings, and so can not do the second, legal, overrun.

My attempts to recreate the situation has led me to the following conclusions.

The problem lies with the program. Read BUG.

1. Units are able to be doubled.
2. Units overrun successfully.
3. Units need to be doubled again to overrun again.
4. Complete shutdown of units when attempting to double units in range of HQ.
5. Conclusion, Program at fault. Needs to be fixed.

This is all backed up by the rules and those participating in this discussion.
Most especially Zorachus99 who took the time to post the problem with a save game.

[Centuur]

It all depends on the interpretation of the rules regarding overruns:

RAW:

You can only overrun if you have odds of at least 7:1 at the moment of
overrun.

To me, the moment of overrun is in the hex you move the unit into.

Therefore the combat factors of the two units have to be doubled in the hex the enemy unit is in (not in the hex preceding the overrun hex). If that's indeed right (and I think it is), than those units are not within range of vRundstedt and can't be doubled so no overrun is possible at that stage.

[paulderynck]

Coincidentally this just came up on the rules list.

Some argued that for RAW7 the O-Chit rule says you double when you calculate final odds for combat/overrun means the doubling is in the hex prior. Others argued that the wording in RAW7 which says: "Land units can sometimes destroy enemy units during movement. They do this by entering the enemy hex and declaring an overrun." means its the defender's hex.

So it seemed to need clarification. Harry responded by making this the text for RAW8:

"Land units can sometimes destroy (or capture) enemy units and markers during movement. They do this by declaring an overrun and then entering the enemy hex. Only enemy controlled hexes may be overrun." Which means I guess, that at least Harry always thought the doubling would occur in the hex prior and that's the one you count the HQ range to.

Edit: "Only enemy controlled hexes may be overrun." was later amended to: "Only enemy controlled hexes and enemy partisans may be overrun."

[WarHunter]

ORIGINAL: Centuur
It all depends on the interpretation of the rules regarding overruns:
RAW:
You can only overrun if you have odds of at least 7:1 at the moment of
overrun.
To me, the moment of overrun is in the hex you move the unit into.
Therefore the combat factors of the two units have to be doubled in the hex the enemy unit is in (not in the hex preceding the overrun hex). If that's indeed right (and I think it is), than those units are not within range of vRundstedt and can't be doubled so no overrun is possible at that stage.

I went ahead and tested your idea. Moved the HQ closer to the 2nd overrun hex.

Where everything goes bad is when the 2 units are doubled again. It allows the doubling. Not the 2nd overrun.

I even sent a unit ahead to make the hex axis. That makes it worse. It ends the movement for the armored stack.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Coincidentally this just came up on the rules list.

Some argued that for RAW7 the O-Chit rule says you double when you calculate final odds for combat/overrun means the doubling is in the hex prior. Others argued that the wording in RAW7 which says: "Land units can sometimes destroy enemy units during movement. They do this by entering the enemy hex and declaring an overrun." means its the defender's hex.

So it seemed to need clarification. Harry responded by making this the text for RAW8:

"Land units can sometimes destroy (or capture) enemy units and markers during movement. They do this by declaring an overrun and then entering the enemy hex. Only enemy controlled hexes may be overrun." Which means I guess, that at least Harry always thought the doubling would occur in the hex prior and that's the one you count the HQ range to.

Edit: "Only enemy controlled hexes may be overrun." was later amended to: "Only enemy controlled hexes and enemy partisans may be overrun."

Yup, that was one of my usual partners (but I am not in that game), although I have been abroad and maybe because of this I was not aware of the clarification by Harry, maybe it was not commented in the list or I just didn't see it. [:)]

[WarHunter]

There is more to this than just trying to overrun 2 hexes with 1 stack.

To add to the mystery. I sent 1 stack of armor to overrun the unit on the border. That went well as usual.

Then moved out not to overrun but just to change control of hexes.

Then moved up HQ.

Then grabbed the armor stack with 20 strength and doubled it.
Moved into the garrison unit to overrun.

Not allowed.
Fresh units. Fresh doubling. No overrun allowed.

[Orm]

I think some of your troubles might be explained in RAC. Units that has made a overrun must continue moving at once if you want to move them. If you move another unit first (after the overrun) then the units that performed the overrun may not be moved again. Note the deviation text below.


Cut from RAC: 11.11.1 How to move land units
You can move your land units one by one, or stack by stack, as you choose. You must finish moving the
unit(s) you are moving before you can start moving another unit. [Deviation. MWIF is more lenient in how you
move land units. For instance, you can Undo moves fairly freely. However, if you overrun a unit, then you will not
be able to undo any previous moves. Note that in order to continue moving the units that perform an overrun, they
have to be immediately reselected after the consequences of the overrun are effected.]

[Joseignacio]

It's like this in the RAW as well.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

It's like this in the RAW as well.

It is so in regards of overruns but not with regular land moves. Therefore it is easy to forget that MWIF is generous in regards of land moves but strict when it is a overrun.

[Joseignacio]

RAW

11.11.1 How to move land units
You can move your land units one by one, or stack by stack, as you choose. You must finish moving the unit(s) you are moving before you can start moving another unit

I may be wrong, but it looks to me (and we play like this) that you need to end a land unit's movement before moving another in regular land moves as well.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

RAW

11.11.1 How to move land units
You can move your land units one by one, or stack by stack, as you choose. You must finish moving the unit(s) you are moving before you can start moving another unit

I may be wrong, but it looks to me (and we play like this) that you need to end a land unit's movement before moving another in regular land moves as well.

That is indeed RAW but MWIF and RAC is more lenient. The deviation does not really explain all aspects of the deviation except that MWIF is more lenient. For example; In MWIF you can pick up a unit and move it one hex then put it down and move another unit. Then you can go back to the first unit and move it again. There are few exceptions to this and one of them is if you do a overrun.