Frozen mines?

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Gorzag
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Frozen mines?

Post by Gorzag »

Hi.
I just played a small battle between SO (me) and Finland (AI). I was on defence so bought some mines. But although Finns were running through them, not even a single one was triggered. :confused:
Now I don't know why. At first I thought that for some weird reason mines does not affect ski troops, but than couple of Finn tanks also rode through my minefield without any problem. So did they froze? Does it makes sense to buy mines in winter? Any help?:confused:
Gorzag
(PS. And no, I did not forget to set them up. They were there!)
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Skeletor
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Post by Skeletor »

I have this problem all the time.

Try clicking the mine button several times over each hex to mine them more heavily. It'll cost you more points but the minefields will be thicker and hopefully more likley to kill the enemy units going over them. It will also take longer for engineers to clear a way through.

You can do the same thing with dragon's teeth and barbed wire. If you want, you can also lay a combination of mines, barbed wire, and dragon's teeth all in the same hex (but only 5 build points worth).

Hope this helps. Lets PBEM sometime.

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Griefbringer
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Post by Griefbringer »

No, the mines did not freeze over, it is just the natural mechanisms of the minefields. Namely, the mines don't go off immediately when someone steps on a hex, rather the computer determines randomly whether someone steps or drives on a mine - this is probably dependent on the amount of mines in the hex (this can vary between 1 and 10 - it is equivalent to the amount of build points you invest on mining that hex).

And the minefield only becomes visible once a mine blows up - I know this from hard experience, as I have had sometimes several squads walk over a minefield, until the third or fourth one blows up the mine.

And of course you could blame yourself for playing the Ruskies instead of Finns :D

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Buzzard45
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Post by Buzzard45 »

Also check the "mines On/Off button in preferences.

I once mined a road and hill-top 7 hexes deep. Three squads of MC road right through it with out a hit.:confused:
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Irinami
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Post by Irinami »

Unless you only want to harry the enemy, place mines 2 hexes deep. I prefer to do 3... or, if there's a tactically important hill, mine the entire thing and cover it with your units' LOS'es. Why? Because they probably won't notice the first or second row of mines... but by the time they get to the middle of the hill, they'll hit a mine. Then they might retreat back... and set off more mines. Then when you fire, they might retreat again... and set off more mines...

... if there are any left.

Mines in the same hex as barbed wire are automagically spotted, IIRC. This is useful. It is like a security guard carrying a big badass pistol. It is a show of strength, and the enemy must make a choice: Circumvent the mined and wired hex, or deal with it. Both options take time. You should have someone with an LOS on the mined-wired hex, but most of your forces should be covering the area the mined-wired hex directs the enemy into. If those troops can easily cover the mined-wired hex, then the enemy is "damned if you do, damned if you don't."
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Griefbringer
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Post by Griefbringer »

Good point about stacked up minefields, Irinami. Another variant of that trick is to place several separate lines of mines, with one (or perhaps a bit more) hex between them.

This means that the opponent has to advance through several minefields to get through them. This allows you an easy way of making safe routes for passing through the minefield (more handy than you could imagine - think about recon troops pulling back from the front observation posts, or tanks making a sudden sortie to enemy flank ) by leaving some one-hex wide hles in the minefields that can be passed through, but placing them at different locations so it becomes very difficult for the enemy to find the safe way through.

I will try to demonstrate a simple example below, x means mine and _ free spot. It looks like a labyrinth.

x_x_x
__x_x
x_x_x
x_x__
x_x_x
x___x
x_x_x

It is recommendable to concentrate mines on more important areas - I prefer to start by laying a single long line across the front, and then lay additional lines across the most vulnerable areas. And I always cover the minefields with fire.

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rbrunsman
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Post by rbrunsman »

Public Service Announcement:
If you're going to use mines in the setup phase of a PBEM (for anything other than a Defend engagement), it is a sporting thing to do to mention this. Otherwise, you will have a pissed off opponent. Most people agree to only Engineer placed mines in Meeting Engagements and Delays.

Just my two cents.:)
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Post by Irinami »

Of course, rbrunsman! I almost forgot this in my latest challenge though. Always make note of whether you expect to be able to use pre-positioned mines or not when you challenge someone (or when challenged, if they forgot).

And thanks, Griefbringer. That is something I hadn't thought about. If playing a human opponent, they can't be 100% positive if they've stumbled on the path... or simply haven't spotted those mines. ^_^
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Griefbringer
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Post by Griefbringer »

Irinami: remember that when playing against human players, it is good to be unpredictable. Therefore, it is good to have some empty areas between the minefields to make him think that he has got across the minefield - only to find a new one a bit later. Also spreading up the mines makes it more difficult to reveal them with artillery barrages.

Another good thing is to use different depths in different areas - once your opponent has figured out that you have a very deep minefields in some area, he could expect that to be the case everywhere, and advance over-carefully in areas where there are mines. That is one of the things with mines in real life too - you find some mines somewhere, and soon you will be looking carefully for them at every spot.

I guess I should try using some defence in depth tactics combined with plenty of layered minefields - say 4-5 minefields behind each other, 1-2 hexes between each, and the whole thing covered with snipers and mortars and MGs and ATGs and airstrikes and fire from other nastiness should make for a rather formidable feat to push through.

And when it comes to finding the safe path - if there is a danger that your enemy is about to find it, you could always have your own engineers sneak in and add a couple of extra mines (better drop in a couple of smokes first) to block it (you can always clean it up later on, if really necessary).

BTW. did I remember to mention that if you are careful you can send some infantry along those safe paths to stage some quick sorties on the enemy to add to the general confusion (drop in some smokes and you can sneak up pretty - coming back can be tough though, so this might be best suited for Japs), or to just spot where the enemy reserves are waiting for the minefield to be cleared up, and call in some arty strikes there.

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Post by arethusa »

There are some points I'd like to raise with the way all of you seem to be laying mines.

#1 In most of the descriptions, and particularly 'Greifbringer's' example, you all seem to be laying mines in straight lines. When your opponent finds a minefield, unless it's the AI, :rolleyes: he's usually smart enough to just drive along the edge of it until he finds the end. Of course you've got appropriate units covering the entire path, right. ;)

#2 If he doesn't drive around it, then he smokes it, brings up engineers and takes it out. Usually doesn't take too long since the minefield is only 1 or 2 hexes deep.

#3 To make a serious minefield more than a few hexes deep with solid mines that will take him a while to get through, takes a lot of mines and therefore buypoints that could be more successful buying something that will actually shoot back at the opponent instead of just slow him down.

#4 The two RL uses of a minefield are to slow the enemy down and direct him into your killing zones. It's actually rare that you get more than one enemy with a minefield since once he knows there are mines, he changes his activity.

Therefore, some suggestions for minefields in keeping with the above observations.

#1b Stagger the forward edge of the minefield or at least every so often, put one mine a hex in front of all the others. That way, if he drives along the edge of the field and speeds up once he thinks he knows where the field is going, he hits one of these "teeth". I'd even put extra mines in a tooth like this since he's more likely to hit them than he is the body of the minefield.

#2b Register your artillery on his side of the minefield (the pre-plotted 'gold points') since you know where he's going to have engineers. The small mortars won't reveal any more mines but will stop the engineers from finding them. With registers, you can hit him quickly and every turn without LOS.

#3b Just don't do it! At least with solid walls of mines. Just like Greifbringer says, you need paths for your own units to raid and retreat through but the minefield is just as effective if it's more like a honeycomb or sieve pattern with lots of paths and spaces between the mines. If you make a path through solid mines as in GB's example, your opponent can observe where it is you come through or at least guess at it. But if the minefield is deeper, say 4 or 5 hexes deep, and completly random in appearance, he can't follow your movements. But he can't charge in there full speed either since any hex may or may not have a mine. This results in three benefits. 1. You can get through at almost full speed. 2. Your opponent still must go one hex per turn to spot mines and be sure of not setting them off. 3. You can make the minefield significantly deeper without using any more mines and probably using fewer mines, thus saving points for 'shooter units'. 4. Your opponent is less likely to hit a mine on the leading edge of your minefield. By the time he hits a mine, he has many units of his force already in the minefield and no matter which way they turn, they run into more mines. You're likely to get more than just one kill per minefield this way.

#4b Remember that the real purpose of a minefield is not to kill the enemy but to slow him down and direct him to where you can kill him easier. A porous minefield does both of tasks just as well as a solid minefield but is much cheaper and can cover a much larger area.

A final parting suggestion. Single mines can be devastating also. Particularly if they're placed in areas your opponent is most likely to go to. For instance, if there is a building at the edge of a river, where is his recon going to go to scan ahead? If there's a clump of trees in the middle of a wide open area he has to cross that gives you a good field of fire? What about a wall or row of buildings that he can hide behind and cover his movement?

If you make him fear all these places of natural safety, he has to slow down to check them out or stay out in the open more. Either way, you have a big effect on what he does. And again, you don't have to mine every likely spot, just a couple of the first ones he comes to is enough to change his tactics for the entire game. :D
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Post by Vathailos »

Excellent information all, thanks for sharing!

Arethusa, two things for you quickly.

First, thanks for the “where are they most likely to put recon units” tip for mining. I guess I hadn’t really considered that “key terrain” for the purpose of mining. Assuming the enemy’s using smaller units than squads for this purpose (scout teams or snipers for example) are you aware of any decreased detonation settings for smaller units? Rather, does the computer adjust the percentage of mine detonation based on the size of infantry as well? I know speed, and vehicle size play a part (are adjusted for), but I don’t know about size of infantry units. If so, I’d want to place more mines in that hex to increase my chances to get a kill. Very good point regardless. Thank you!

Second, you seem to indicate that moving at a speed of 1 will enable you to ‘be sure of not setting them off”. I think this may be an incorrect assumption. I’ve moved units only one hex (both infantry and vehicles) and still detonated mines. I was in one of Frank W’s heavily mined rear VHs for example recently, and only moved 1 hex with a squad in an attempt to exit the field, and detonated mines in the next hex. I think it’s a question of mine density. If your opponent has placed a full 50 mines in one hex, your chances of moving through that hex unscathed are pretty low IMO, regardless of movement rate. Just an observation, and if I’m incorrect (which is not uncommon) please provide the “final” answer.

Thanks again all. :D
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Post by o4r »

Gorzag wrote:Hi.
I just played a small battle between SO (me) and Finland (AI). I was on defence so bought some mines. But although Finns were running through them, not even a single one was triggered. :confused:
Now I don't know why. At first I thought that for some weird reason mines does not affect ski troops, but than couple of Finn tanks also rode through my minefield without any problem. So did they froze? Does it makes sense to buy mines in winter? Any help?:confused:
Gorzag
(PS. And no, I did not forget to set them up. They were there!)
It depend on how many mine you place in a hex.

A hex is around 50 yards in SPWAW, do you expect 10 mines in a 50 yards square area to be a real threat?
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Post by Belisarius »

Yeah, every now and then you will be able to run straight trough a mined hex without setting one off. Or setting it off leaving the hex. :rolleyes:

When we played the Stalingrad MegaScenario, I walked 2 squads and 3 PzIV over a mined hex - the 4th Panzer caught it.

In our ongoing battle, although ofcourse also suffering casualties, Gary has managed to slip a Hellcat or two right over my minefields. Now, these are minefields with 1-3 mines in them, so I expect results to be low.
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Post by arethusa »

Vathailos wrote: Second, you seem to indicate that moving at a speed of 1 will enable you to ‘be sure of not setting them off”. I think this may be an incorrect assumption. I’ve moved units only one hex (both infantry and vehicles) and still detonated mines. I was in one of Frank W’s heavily mined rear VHs for example recently, and only moved 1 hex with a squad in an attempt to exit the field, and detonated mines in the next hex. I think it’s a question of mine density. If your opponent has placed a full 50 mines in one hex, your chances of moving through that hex unscathed are pretty low IMO, regardless of movement rate. Just an observation, and if I’m incorrect (which is not uncommon) please provide the “final” answer.
Perhaps I didn't phrase it as clearly as I should have.

What I said was "point #2. Your opponent still must go one hex per turn to spot mines and be sure of not setting them off."

What I meant was that the opponent travelling through the minefield will only be able to go at most 1 hex per turn and wait to try to reveal the presence of any mines in the next hex before moving into it. Even then, you're not guaranteed of spotting mines however engineers will probably be able to see the mines at this speed, but not defuse them.

With the open pattern I'm suggesting, once the mines are all spotted, the opponent will be able to go through at full speed just as you can and he doesn't need to defuse them. The idea of the minefield in this case is to slow him down to allow your artillery or direct fire fire guns to take a toll on him while he's trying to get through the field. Or for your more distant units to get there to plug the hole. Direct and indirect fire weapons will always take out more enemy than any passive weapons once the enemy knows there are passive weapons (mines) in the area.

So yes Vathailos, you're correct that you can't go through a minefield at any speed without risking casualties.
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Post by AbsntMndedProf »

I just saw a documentary about the battle of Kursk on PBS last night. It was stated that, prior to the battle, the Soviets placed up to 5,000 anti-personel and anti-tank mines per mile of the Kursk salient frontage. Is this an unusually high level of mines for WW II? Thanks! Just wondering.

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Kursk

Post by STEELER13 »

[FONT=Arial]In the Battle of Kursk, with UP TO(key words) 5,000 mines per mile, that was unusual. For the record, you will note that is roughly 1 mine per yard, or about 50 mines in a single SPWAW hex?
Back to Kursk, I am sure someone will dig up another incident, but for the most part, the Soviets had 4 to 5 months to prepare, and used just about every man, woman, and child within 100 miles to prepare those defenses. Not many other battlefields in WWII had that sort of preparation. The Maginot, the Siegfried, and the WestWall were never even close to the type of defense in depth that Kursk was, especially as they were linear defenses. Despite the talk of Rommel's Gardens, the Germans did not have the manpower nor time to come close to 5,000 mines per mile. Nor should they have had the inclination. At Kursk, the Germans so telegraphed their moves that unlike most battles of WWII, the Soviets didn't "guess" an attack "might come that way"...so placing the mines was not a wasted effort.
If you really want a good read get Col. Glantz's 60+page pamphlet on the Defense Tactics of Kursk==I bought mine years ago from Tom Pettys of Aberdeen Books(yes, that is a plug---great guy!). It mostly covers the North and is enveloped in his argument that as Clausewitz suggested, for every major offensive tactic a good defense can be developed==a theory discussed more in sports bars about football than in the Pentagon about War. BTW, his book with Jonathan House, and most books on Kursk, do not go into this type of detail that SPWAW gamers and designers would be interested in reading, so I definitely recommend this.
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STEELER13
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mines

Post by STEELER13 »

[FONT=Arial]
Excellent points, Arethusa.
You are right that in a meeting engagement mines are secondary in value to something that can shoot and scoot. In a delay they obviously are worth considering, and in a defense against an assault, a necessity. The reason is because in a defense against an assault you know where they are coming and you don't have much that can stop them. A minefield slows them and gives you breathing room.

Again, Arethus, your suggestions for placement are great ideas. Only thing missing is the obvious place to put a mine:roads! Yeah, I know, most veteran SP players would know not to use a road as they are covered by their veteran opponent.
Seriously most players imitate life either intentionally or not(computer does it for them when they select a further hex) and choose roads to move on to a point where they predict ambush and THEN get off the road. Roads ARE the quickest way to move in the game and in RL. Since mines are used to slow down an opponent, you sow a few early on a road(as far as you can in the setup), especially in winter battles where an advancing opponent will often try to force their way up a road covered by MG's and machine guns by sending recon and infantry on the flanks to sniff out and snuff ambushes as that is usually quicker than moving across snow. Mines on a road change that tactic rather quickly.
The best place to mine, in my humble opinion, is right after a brige....and Arethusa has already stated the obvious...COVER that Minefield/ bridge and the other side of the bridge. You see an opponent will often shoot a smoke screen on your side of the bridge and bring small force across bridge, deploy them, so they can cover rest of the guys when Smoke thins out. Mines on the otherhand cause his troops to bunch up on the bridge and his side, so that when his smokescreen wears off you really having a killing zone. As Arethusa alluded, you must imagine what your opponent is thinking before you place mines.
As for the number of mines per hex and how to make them hit that 4th or 5th panzer, talk to Wild Bill. I know from testing his scenarios he has some **** recipe! Grrrr....I had one scenario for the new MC I tested:I was on verge of a crushing victory, and I was bringing up a key piece of equipment over same path all my guys had gone before and WHAM BLAM thank you MA'AM...my battle ended in a draw. My guy was gone so fast I didn't even know what hit it at first. Wild Bill has an evil rep for minefield hell and I can personally attest he has earned every curse ever uttered by a SPWAW gamer! Which is a compliment, of course! :rolleyes:
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Post by Capt. Pixel »

STEELER13 wrote:[FONT=Arial]In the Battle of Kursk, with UP TO(key words) 5,000 mines per mile, that was unusual. For the record, you will note that is roughly 1 mine per yard, or about 50 mines in a single SPWAW hex?
...
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A mile is 5,280 feet. That count would make it nearly 1 mine PER FOOT (or 150 mines in a SPWaW hex. That's linear, of course, a minefield with any reasonable depth would more likely be placed every 5-10 feet parallel to the expected line of advance. With additional layers placed every 5-10 feet perpendicular to the line of advance. This would make a minefield 25 to 100 feet deep.

One of my favorite mining tactics is to place mines and AT obstacles in the same hex. Sure, the opponent knows where the mines are (they appear inside the AT obstacle icon) but he still has to deal with them somehow. Place a few random mines just ahead of this 'fence' to make his life even more interesting.

Meanwhile, the AT obstacle precludes vehicular movement, slows him down and guides him along killing lanes you've set up. A mine/AT obstacle hex still has to be removed just as a minefield would be.

When placing mines, try this key combination <A> <D> <S>. This adds a mine to the hex, then an AT obstacle, then deletes one 'mine'. The end result is 5 mines and 5 AT obstacles in the hex (half-and-half).

When the opponent removes mines he's aslo dealing with AT obstacles. So a report "Engineer removes 2 mines" results in one mine and one AT obstacle being removed. In other words, the AT obstacle will remain until all the mines are removed. :cool:
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Post by arethusa »

I have no idea how many mines per unit area would be normal in WWII but the fact that they talk about it suggests that it might be higher than the usual amount.

In a way though, it can illustrate my point about the pattern of the minefields. 5,000 mines per mile would be almost 1 mine per foot of frontage. If all these mines were laid in a straight line, it would undoubtedly blow somebody up because any foot that landed on that line has a high probability of stepping on a mine.

But the line would only be 1 pace thick so if the soldier stepped over the line instead of on it, he would be safe from then on an could run at top speed. Once the first few soldiers hit mines, the simple pattern of the minefield would be known and for game purposes, engineers only have to clear one hex to be able to go through the minefield at full speed thereafter. But make the field deeper, but on fewer hexes, and the opponent now has no idea where the edges of the field are and must then go slowly for many turns until he's sure he's all the way through.
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Post by Charles2222 »

arethusa:
With the open pattern I'm suggesting, once the mines are all spotted, the opponent will be able to go through at full speed just as you can and he doesn't need to defuse them. The idea of the minefield in this case is to slow him down to allow your artillery or direct fire fire guns to take a toll on him while he's trying to get through the field.
Someone earlier commented on the aspect of retreating units running into mines. So needing to defuse them, even once past them, can take on a considerable importance. If your enemy can muster enough firepower to pummel you with suppression, destruction or not in his fire, the mines you thought you were safely behind can once again become your enemy. The more easily the nation you're playing, is to retreat, the more importance this can take on. In my particular style of play, only against the AI mind you, I make sure and cut the minefield to some 3 hexes in width, before any bulk is sent through. Sure when I'm confident a single line has gone all the way through the minefield I might send a tank or two through, to aid in routing the closer enemy units, but I'm sure not going to cut in behind an active minefield unless my advance is at least 8 hexes beyond the minefield before they start running parallel to that minefield rear line, which, should they get routed, gives most AFV's 1-2 turns to rally before they end up in the minefields. I'd never trust USSR AFV's in that type of situation.
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