The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
After taking several months off from playing AE, it is time to jump back into the game.
Many of you may know that for the last 6-8 weeks the Reluctant Admiral Design Team has worked and created two all new Mods for our August Forum to play. Much of the work centered around my Thesis work in Grad School when I wrote "Between the Storms: The Impact of Naval Disarmament on the United States Navy--1921-1936." The work that FatR, Juan G, JWE/Symon, BK, Red Lancer, and a batch of other people centered on Yamamoto's rise to naval Minister in 1937. Instead of moving to command Combined Fleet he followed what his mentor wanted (and LIVES to tell about it). The work done there focused on those last couple of years prior to Pearl Harbor.
I've been quite proud of how well RA has done and all the changes, twists, and modifications we've made to it over the last few years, however, I always felt something was missing. FatR and I worked on the Perfect War Mod and brought a lot of ideas forward that had been in my research for the Thesis. Unfortunately that Mod has yet to be completed so I decided to take some of the work done there and create a pure vanilla Scenario ONE campaign that simply added a few new shiny toys for all sides to enjoy.
This is what the Treaty Mod is. It is DBB-Based with only a few news ships added to the OOB. Here is the Scenario Description:
Scenario 45 The Treaty Mod
The Treaty Mod
ALTNAV 1922-1937
The Treaty Mod for AE has been created to reflect a slightly different outcome of the historic Washington and London Naval Conferences: 1922-1937. With little changes and tweaks to the Treaty System, a slightly a-historic outcome is produced. It should be noted that no changes are made to any major power from 1937-1941.
The Washington Conference
Charles Evans Hughes blueprint for disarmament gets out and the Japanese stonewall a Naval Conference for a full year. The Conference does take place in 1922 and disarmament is agreed upon, however, there are additions allowed due to the added time to get the meeting going. The whole Mutsu Debate is scrapped due to Mutsu actually being ready and deployed at that point. While maintaining the 5-5-3 ratio between Great Britain, the United States, and Japan, there are several new outcomes:
1. The Japanese then argue to keep either a Tosa or a pair of the Amagi Class battlecruisers. The Americans carry the day in arguing for the Lexington-Class battlecruisers being completed. They gain the Ranger and Constellation (while scrapping BB Mississippi to maintain balance), Great Britain gets the option to build a pair of Super-Hoods (while additionally scrapping Royal Sovereign), and Japan completes Amagi-Class Ishitaka.
2. The whole subject of CVs is reworked:
a. Allow two 'experimental' CVs (two Hosho's and two Langley's)
b. Two BC conversions are allowed but further treaty tonnage is added for one more CVL to be built by both Japan and USA. The Americans build the King’s Mountain (proto-Independence Class) and the Japanese back off the failed Ryujo design to build Ryukaku (a proto-CVL as well).
The London Conference
Moving on to the London Conference (1930) and the subject of Cruisers is re-worked:
1. Japan--at all costs--sticks to its goal of 70% for CAs (instead of 60%). This allows for GB and USA to build two more CAs (USA: Burlington and Rome) while Japan gains one.
2. Great Britain--who nearly scrapped the treaty due to the issue of CAs and CLs--stands firm over its argument and forces a larger tonnage for CLs. USA adds USS Anchorage and Dallas.
3. Both Japan and the United States were looking at hybrid Cruiser—CVs and they force Great Britain, following the example set with the Washington BC—CV Conversions, to allow for two hybrids each in the early-30s. USA builds CLV Charlotte and Jacksonville, GB builds CAV Melbourne and Wellington (sold/given to those respective navies), and Japan finishes up with CAV Kushiro and Tokachi.
***It should be noted that to take maximum advantage of the revised Treaty tonnages, Japan converts several of the oldest CLs into fast ML, builds additional Myoko-Class CAs and keeps the Mogami Class as 6” CLs.
As war clouds gather on the horizon, the United States makes several important decisions (1) to slightly reinforce the Asiatic Fleet with an additional CA, CL, and 4 modern DDs, (2) Admiral Hart also decides to follow his inner thoughts and begin development of Cebu as an alternate anchorage, and (3) the Scouting Force, commanded by Vc-Adm Wilson is sent south to protect the Philippine reinforcement TFs going to the Philippines (The Pensacola TF) and the empty TF returning from the Philippines (The Chester TF).
Japan deploys its few new ships to protect the Invasion TFs coming from Babeldoap and Cam Rahn Bay as the Kido Butai steams towards its rendezvous with destiny at Pearl Harbor…
Many of you may know that for the last 6-8 weeks the Reluctant Admiral Design Team has worked and created two all new Mods for our August Forum to play. Much of the work centered around my Thesis work in Grad School when I wrote "Between the Storms: The Impact of Naval Disarmament on the United States Navy--1921-1936." The work that FatR, Juan G, JWE/Symon, BK, Red Lancer, and a batch of other people centered on Yamamoto's rise to naval Minister in 1937. Instead of moving to command Combined Fleet he followed what his mentor wanted (and LIVES to tell about it). The work done there focused on those last couple of years prior to Pearl Harbor.
I've been quite proud of how well RA has done and all the changes, twists, and modifications we've made to it over the last few years, however, I always felt something was missing. FatR and I worked on the Perfect War Mod and brought a lot of ideas forward that had been in my research for the Thesis. Unfortunately that Mod has yet to be completed so I decided to take some of the work done there and create a pure vanilla Scenario ONE campaign that simply added a few new shiny toys for all sides to enjoy.
This is what the Treaty Mod is. It is DBB-Based with only a few news ships added to the OOB. Here is the Scenario Description:
Scenario 45 The Treaty Mod
The Treaty Mod
ALTNAV 1922-1937
The Treaty Mod for AE has been created to reflect a slightly different outcome of the historic Washington and London Naval Conferences: 1922-1937. With little changes and tweaks to the Treaty System, a slightly a-historic outcome is produced. It should be noted that no changes are made to any major power from 1937-1941.
The Washington Conference
Charles Evans Hughes blueprint for disarmament gets out and the Japanese stonewall a Naval Conference for a full year. The Conference does take place in 1922 and disarmament is agreed upon, however, there are additions allowed due to the added time to get the meeting going. The whole Mutsu Debate is scrapped due to Mutsu actually being ready and deployed at that point. While maintaining the 5-5-3 ratio between Great Britain, the United States, and Japan, there are several new outcomes:
1. The Japanese then argue to keep either a Tosa or a pair of the Amagi Class battlecruisers. The Americans carry the day in arguing for the Lexington-Class battlecruisers being completed. They gain the Ranger and Constellation (while scrapping BB Mississippi to maintain balance), Great Britain gets the option to build a pair of Super-Hoods (while additionally scrapping Royal Sovereign), and Japan completes Amagi-Class Ishitaka.
2. The whole subject of CVs is reworked:
a. Allow two 'experimental' CVs (two Hosho's and two Langley's)
b. Two BC conversions are allowed but further treaty tonnage is added for one more CVL to be built by both Japan and USA. The Americans build the King’s Mountain (proto-Independence Class) and the Japanese back off the failed Ryujo design to build Ryukaku (a proto-CVL as well).
The London Conference
Moving on to the London Conference (1930) and the subject of Cruisers is re-worked:
1. Japan--at all costs--sticks to its goal of 70% for CAs (instead of 60%). This allows for GB and USA to build two more CAs (USA: Burlington and Rome) while Japan gains one.
2. Great Britain--who nearly scrapped the treaty due to the issue of CAs and CLs--stands firm over its argument and forces a larger tonnage for CLs. USA adds USS Anchorage and Dallas.
3. Both Japan and the United States were looking at hybrid Cruiser—CVs and they force Great Britain, following the example set with the Washington BC—CV Conversions, to allow for two hybrids each in the early-30s. USA builds CLV Charlotte and Jacksonville, GB builds CAV Melbourne and Wellington (sold/given to those respective navies), and Japan finishes up with CAV Kushiro and Tokachi.
***It should be noted that to take maximum advantage of the revised Treaty tonnages, Japan converts several of the oldest CLs into fast ML, builds additional Myoko-Class CAs and keeps the Mogami Class as 6” CLs.
As war clouds gather on the horizon, the United States makes several important decisions (1) to slightly reinforce the Asiatic Fleet with an additional CA, CL, and 4 modern DDs, (2) Admiral Hart also decides to follow his inner thoughts and begin development of Cebu as an alternate anchorage, and (3) the Scouting Force, commanded by Vc-Adm Wilson is sent south to protect the Philippine reinforcement TFs going to the Philippines (The Pensacola TF) and the empty TF returning from the Philippines (The Chester TF).
Japan deploys its few new ships to protect the Invasion TFs coming from Babeldoap and Cam Rahn Bay as the Kido Butai steams towards its rendezvous with destiny at Pearl Harbor…

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
My opponent in this game is a long-time friend Lew Nelson (aka Adm Nelson). We get along fantastically and enjoy each others playing style. We have played each other twice and gone will into 1943 both times so this should be a long-term game.
I wrote Lew just a while ago that I was starting to work on my Turn ONE and would fire it to him today or tomorrow.
In starting turn work I've found that RA has soooooooooooooo spoiled me that it was like returning to the womb here. Having to refresh myself on a historical start with only a few new options to play with.
As of yet, there is no GRAND PLAN for total defeat of the Allies. Have my 'normal' ideas and moves but that is as far as I've gotten to this point. For those who do not know me, I am as aggressive as they come in this game. Here is the minimum perimeter for Japan:
1. South Pacific: Horn, PM, New Caledonia, Efate, and Luganville.
2. Central Pacific: Normal plus Midway.
3. NW Australia
4. Aleutians: Cold Bay/Harbour and all points west
5. Upper Burma/SE India
To make it interesting, we may take all Northern Australia from Perth to Townsville including Tennant Creek and Alice Springs.
I wrote Lew just a while ago that I was starting to work on my Turn ONE and would fire it to him today or tomorrow.
In starting turn work I've found that RA has soooooooooooooo spoiled me that it was like returning to the womb here. Having to refresh myself on a historical start with only a few new options to play with.
As of yet, there is no GRAND PLAN for total defeat of the Allies. Have my 'normal' ideas and moves but that is as far as I've gotten to this point. For those who do not know me, I am as aggressive as they come in this game. Here is the minimum perimeter for Japan:
1. South Pacific: Horn, PM, New Caledonia, Efate, and Luganville.
2. Central Pacific: Normal plus Midway.
3. NW Australia
4. Aleutians: Cold Bay/Harbour and all points west
5. Upper Burma/SE India
To make it interesting, we may take all Northern Australia from Perth to Townsville including Tennant Creek and Alice Springs.

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
In a radical departure from previous games, we have settled on a small set of House Rules:
1. 1st turn can have multiple port attacks, but ONLY from carriers. Manila and Singapore may have Fighters up and on CAP. Allies cannot transfer new Squadrons reflecting prior knowledge.
2. PPs to move out of national borders (Japan - Manchuria, Thai) and (Allies - India, China)
3. No strategic bombing (Oil, Resources, HI, LI, etc.) on EITHER side until July 1, 1943.
4. Non-historic 1st turn, normal reinforcements, PDUs ON, orders for TF formed already OK, no transfers
5. Four-Engine Bombers:
a. 4E bombers restricted to 10k or higher for naval and ground attacks (does not include PBY/Mavis type patrol craft)
b. 4E bombers CANNOT bomb troops except in Base Hexes.
1. 1st turn can have multiple port attacks, but ONLY from carriers. Manila and Singapore may have Fighters up and on CAP. Allies cannot transfer new Squadrons reflecting prior knowledge.
2. PPs to move out of national borders (Japan - Manchuria, Thai) and (Allies - India, China)
3. No strategic bombing (Oil, Resources, HI, LI, etc.) on EITHER side until July 1, 1943.
4. Non-historic 1st turn, normal reinforcements, PDUs ON, orders for TF formed already OK, no transfers
5. Four-Engine Bombers:
a. 4E bombers restricted to 10k or higher for naval and ground attacks (does not include PBY/Mavis type patrol craft)
b. 4E bombers CANNOT bomb troops except in Base Hexes.

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
This is the starting Kido Butai:
Notes: No Kaga--Amagi is completed as a CV. Included are BC Ishitaka (Amagi-Class) and two of the new CLs of the Tokoro-Class (3x3 6" 4 Search Planes built on a slightly smaller Mogami-Class line. There is no Tone-Class.

Notes: No Kaga--Amagi is completed as a CV. Included are BC Ishitaka (Amagi-Class) and two of the new CLs of the Tokoro-Class (3x3 6" 4 Search Planes built on a slightly smaller Mogami-Class line. There is no Tone-Class.

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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
This is Ishitaka:


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- BCIshitaka.jpg (333.67 KiB) Viewed 723 times

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
CL Tokoro Class:
The Japanese start with three built and five more under construction. Noticed that this still has the Mogami Art. Need to shift this over to the Yahagi Art we did for RA.

The Japanese start with three built and five more under construction. Noticed that this still has the Mogami Art. Need to shift this over to the Yahagi Art we did for RA.

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- Tokoro.jpg (355.4 KiB) Viewed 723 times

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
Last of the new items is the CVL built upon the lessons learned in how NOT to build a CVL--Ryujo:


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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
- ny59giants
- Posts: 9902
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
I took out NOT allowing 4e bombers to bomb ground troops. Allies need all the help they can in places like Burma to smash their way through.
Have fun!! [:D]
Have fun!! [:D]
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[/center]RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
So you have the guns of the Nagato class on a 33-kt. hull. Was some armor sacrificed to get the extra speed?
If so, where? Wondering if deck armor can be pierced by bombs like a CA's is.
If so, where? Wondering if deck armor can be pierced by bombs like a CA's is.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
You put up a screenshot of a CL. I assume you mean BC Ishitaka?
That BAD BOY is gonna rock the house! Course before I get too excited I need to remember that the Americans got TWO Lexington-Class BCs (Ranger and Constellation) in exchange for the Japanese building this Capital Ship.
That BAD BOY is gonna rock the house! Course before I get too excited I need to remember that the Americans got TWO Lexington-Class BCs (Ranger and Constellation) in exchange for the Japanese building this Capital Ship.

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
Whoopsie! (Head slap here). I did mean Ishitaka. Does it have less armor than the Nagatos? i.e. can bombs penetrate the deck, or thinner side armor than the BBs?ORIGINAL: John 3rd
You put up a screenshot of a CL. I assume you mean BC Ishitaka?
That BAD BOY is gonna rock the house! Course before I get too excited I need to remember that the Americans got TWO Lexington-Class BCs (Ranger and Constellation) in exchange for the Japanese building this Capital Ship.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
Here is the stat block for the Amagi-Class BCs. Note the tonnage and armor.


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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
....and here is Nagato:


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- Nagato.jpg (256.39 KiB) Viewed 735 times

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
Juan did excellent work on creating the Lexington's and Amagi's. Thanks for that help as well as the off-map Allied aircraft purchase system.

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
Have gotten roughly 2/3 of the way through Turn ONE. It is wild and crazy looking at the RL starting items, ships, planes, LCUs, and fuel/supply. I have been so used to RA over the last two years I often forget what the real Dec 7th looked like. There are SOOOOOOO many supplies and fuel caches compared to RA that I feel rich! Not near enough flexibility in LBA and Naval LCUs but we can adapt and overcome.
Planning Notes:
1. I've ordered a whole batch of convoys to unload their troops and supplies do to simple stupidity. The biggest area of this is the Philippines and Marshalls area. I will reload how I WANT IT DONE and then send the TFs in.
2. Malaya will be the focus. Plan to bring six-seven ID to that party. Will land at Kuantan with everything, grab the AF, and then bounce down to Mersing.
3. Will hit PH with all six CVs of Kido Butai and then scoot south to deal with threats down there. With all the additions to the Allied OOB in the south, I don't dare make a major move in that region until I have CV support. KB is truly quick now. There is no Kaga and so my SLOWEST CV Carrion Division is 31 Knots. That ROCKS!
4. I have detailed the 144th Inf Reg to take Wake and not Guam. If that landing goes well they will then move on Midway.
5. Two Port strikes on Turn One. KB hits PH and KB-2 (CVLs Ryukaku, Ryujo, and Zuiho) hit Manila. They only have 42 Kates but I want to damage some of the SS present there.
6. Move two additional Betty/Nell groups to Takao to add more firepower to hitting the AF in Luzon. Two Daitai each for Iba and Manila while three hit Clark. That should PASTE those AF well.
Those are the initial plans...
Planning Notes:
1. I've ordered a whole batch of convoys to unload their troops and supplies do to simple stupidity. The biggest area of this is the Philippines and Marshalls area. I will reload how I WANT IT DONE and then send the TFs in.
2. Malaya will be the focus. Plan to bring six-seven ID to that party. Will land at Kuantan with everything, grab the AF, and then bounce down to Mersing.
3. Will hit PH with all six CVs of Kido Butai and then scoot south to deal with threats down there. With all the additions to the Allied OOB in the south, I don't dare make a major move in that region until I have CV support. KB is truly quick now. There is no Kaga and so my SLOWEST CV Carrion Division is 31 Knots. That ROCKS!
4. I have detailed the 144th Inf Reg to take Wake and not Guam. If that landing goes well they will then move on Midway.
5. Two Port strikes on Turn One. KB hits PH and KB-2 (CVLs Ryukaku, Ryujo, and Zuiho) hit Manila. They only have 42 Kates but I want to damage some of the SS present there.
6. Move two additional Betty/Nell groups to Takao to add more firepower to hitting the AF in Luzon. Two Daitai each for Iba and Manila while three hit Clark. That should PASTE those AF well.
Those are the initial plans...

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
7mm less belt armour and 9 mm less tower armour but 3mm MORE deck armour - I'd say Amagi is a BB, not a BC.
No real trade-off of armour or guns for the extra 8 kts speed. BCs are supposed to have some weakness relative to BBs.
Scharnorst and Gneisenau sacrificed gun power to get battleship armour with high speed.
British BCs sacrificed deck armour and still had to build a larger ship to get the speed they wanted.
The Kongo class were built along British lines originally, and had armour added between the two World Wars. They still were
weak in belt armour and carried fewer guns to get the speed.
Anyhoo - just wanted to get a bead on what manner of beast the Amagi is. You've created a monster there!
No real trade-off of armour or guns for the extra 8 kts speed. BCs are supposed to have some weakness relative to BBs.
Scharnorst and Gneisenau sacrificed gun power to get battleship armour with high speed.
British BCs sacrificed deck armour and still had to build a larger ship to get the speed they wanted.
The Kongo class were built along British lines originally, and had armour added between the two World Wars. They still were
weak in belt armour and carried fewer guns to get the speed.
Anyhoo - just wanted to get a bead on what manner of beast the Amagi is. You've created a monster there!

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
- ny59giants
- Posts: 9902
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
The 'beast' will be the 2 American BCs teaming up with the 2 French BCs in BTS mod in mid-42. Add in 8 Flecthers in early 43 and you have a good quick hitting SC TF that can also bombard bases easily. I'm looking forward to it!! 

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[/center]RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
Very good points BBfanboy. Juan built this monster direct from the Japanese blueprints so this is what they envisioned. Remember Kaigun's (the Book) argument of using 'one to conquer many.' Certainly seems true here...

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
- CowboyRonin
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:17 pm
RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
I was looking at the post and compared it to the North Carolina and South Dakota; the Amagi's are toughly 10,000 tons heavier. Those are fully-grown beasts.
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RE: The Darkest Hour: Treaty Mod Japan
That they are. You should get Lew to post a screenshot of the Lexington's when he gets his side of the AAR up and running.
Turn ONE is done. Will run it tomorrow morning and then send it. Time to get the show on the road...
Turn ONE is done. Will run it tomorrow morning and then send it. Time to get the show on the road...

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.



