Small realism question...how big are ammo shelters, revestments, etc.

[Mgellis]

Just curious...if I was trying to be a stickler for realism, how much can I put in a typical ammunition shelter? Obviously, an underground bunker might be any size, but the ones on the surface, I imagine, have some limits. Looking at the pictures in the database, I am guesstimating you can have about 500-1,000 "smaller" munitions (e.g., Sidewinders) or 100-200 larger ones (e.g. MK83 bombs, torpedoes, etc.) Is that about right?

[Randomizer]

Ammunition is typically stored by explosive class and type, at least in the West. So for a simple example seperate-loaded artillery projectiles (usually 150 mm or larger) are stored separately from propellants and both are in different locations than the fuzes. Big exception for fixed or semi-fixed ammunition which is packaged in single-round units but may also have several complete rounds to a box and multiple boxes per pallet. The big delimiter is NEQ or Net Explosive Quantity, a value that varies between nations and is based on explosive type and weight. NEQ governs how much can be stored in a single space and the distance between storage platforms or buildings. The aim is to prevent sympathetic detonation should one space detonate high-order due to accident or attack.

Bombs and fuzes are stored in separate buildings or bunkers and any guidance units or fins are stored separately as non-explosive components.

So your question is a bit like asking "How big is a balloon?" and the answer is always "It depends". I know that the NEQ storage rules apply to NATO or are at least NATO standard and are generally rigidly enforced in fixed installations, at least in theory. So pretty much any outlay you want can be "accurate" as CMANO allows your ammo bunkers to be whatever you want them to be without messing about with explosive classes, NEQ's and safe distances.

Below is a sat-shot of a moderate-sized ammunition depot storing all types of non-nuclear munitions. It measures about 5-km north-south and is about half that from east-west. Each building or structure will hold a specific explosive class (or compatible mix of classes according to storage regulations) and are frequently separated from their neighbour by a berm to deflect the shock wave of a high-order blast. A building should only hold an NEQ that will prevent sympathetic detonation of the magazine next door in the event of accident or attack. Rail lines run down the east side and the ammunition assembly buildings are off the screen to the south. Note to that there are bunkers and above-ground shelters on the northern part of the magazine area and that the individual building tend to be long and narrow as another aid to limit catastrophic propagation of a detonation.

I would not worry about it, was I you with the caveat that a separate facility for nukes is probably reasonable and realistic.

-C

[Randomizer]

Just to clarify some things and offer assurances that, from a scenario designer's perspective the contents of any magazine complex do not require more detail than CMANO provides.

For example, before you can determine how many Mk-83 bombs can be placed into a single magazine you need to know many details that the game cannot provide such as:

Type of magazine - Above ground concrete or open storage or earthen bunker or underground bunker or hardened shelter etc.

Berms or no berms separating the individual magazine structures,

Safety distance from - similar or nearby magazines, civilian structures, POL, military facilities etc.

Only with this information does it become possible to determine the NEQ (also known as NEW for Net Explosive Weight) that can be stored in the structure. The calculation of NEQ that can be stored always comes before the item to be stored so suppose that we calculate that the single magazine can store an NEQ of 4000 lbs.

A single Mk-83 Mod 4 bomb has an NEQ of 445 so our hypothetical magazine can safely store 8-bombs (4000/445= 8.989 rounded down to 8).

For a Mk-82 Mod 4 the NEQ is 180 and so instead of 8 x Mk-83s, the same magazine can store 22 x Mk-82 bombs (4000/180=22.22 rounded down to 22) or for that matter 195 x Hellfire rocket motors waiting to be mated to their warhead and guidance components.

Ammo storage is a logistical problem rather than an operational one requiring literally thousands of pages of rules and regulations covering a vast number of ammunition items and contingencies and I would submit that only the most fanatical of rivet-counters would want more details than CMANO already provides. Particularly since any scenario would really not benefit from additional complexity in the way ammo storage is already modelled in my opinion.

The above figures come from a 1990 ammo catalogue but it is unlikely that the values have changed too much in the intervening decades.

-C

[Mgellis]

Thanks for the information. I didn't think it would affect the design for a scenario very much, but I want to avoid putting in really glaring errors if I can so I figured it could not hurt to ask. Thanks again.

[Gunner98]

Man, I bet that brings you back to the old days eh Chris [;)]

To add one other factor, many of the newer munitions - and newer production runs of some old ammo, are conforming to the EU (and I think wider) definition of 'Insensitive Munitions' (IM)

IM are designed to lower the NEQ of a type of munition - or reduce the chance of sympathetic detonation. That way you can store more ammo in the same space and keep the NEQ under control - quite good for ships (AE, AOR etc) and air transport of ammo.

The end result for Command is the same as discussed above - it shouldn't overly concern the scenario designer. I think the coded limit per ammo magazine in the game is 10,000 - not 100% sure on that, which is way more than would realistically fit in a normal ammo bunker - but it’s also way more than the average scenario needs.

I tend to work it as follows:
A) If it’s an import file, I try and spread the ammo around to as many of the ammo storage facilities as I need and also try and cross load - so that one hit doesn’t destroy all my sidewinders etc. Cross loading is an operational concern and as mentioned above ammo storage is a Logistics issue – the Loggies would go nuts if you did that in real life –but…

B) If I'm building the base from scratch, I'll put one ammo facility for every dozen or so AC. There's no science behind that, it’s just a ballpark.

If it’s a Nuke facility it will be separate, and either deep underground or quite far away.

Just my two 'rounds' worth

B

[Randomizer]

Hey Bart, just like old times at the School. "Gentlemen, today we will be looking at APFSDS long-rod penetrators..."

As I recall you can also lower the NEQ by cladding to provide insulation in the event of fire, something the USN learned well before the 1967 Forrestal disaster but somehow managed to forget. This is the principle reason why some naval ordnance will have a lower NEQ than its Air Force equivalent. I dug up an old and unclassified ammunition catalogue with the transportation and storage data for a couple of hundred Cold War era munition items before replying to Mark's post.

When designing scenarios I sometimes will use Google Earth and it is often relatively easy to locate derelict magazine areas even if the base is closed or re-purposed and the facility has been demolished provided there has been no significant new construction over the site. The road nets within a magazine area are pretty obvious once you know what to look for as are the aircraft dispersal hard stands and ready/alert parking areas. Typically, the "special ammunition storage" (SAS) and secure weapon assembly areas were adjacent and located near the alert aircraft parking spots but the conventional weapons' magazines would normally be located well away from any aircraft parking and the POL/AVGAS tank farm.

A good example of multiple magazines as you mention is found at Ovda Air Base (below) where you can see what appears to be five distinct twin hardened magazines each with its own ammunition assembly building and connected to their own quick-dispersal herringbone aircraft parking areas. The paved road network provides redundancy in the event of one or more magazines taking hits. You seldom see this sort of thing in the former Soviet Union but they may still be detectable at former SAC and ADC bases in North America.

-C

[Gunner98]

I just watched the discovery vid on the Forrestal fire. Even with the temporally displaced footage ranging from WW2 (I think it was the USS Princeton) to F14/18 shots it was pretty good. A horrific reminder of what shortcuts with ammo can do.

Remember when the new plastic packaging came in for the 155mm propellant. It was so big, bulky and cumbersome - almost useless outside the Ammo depots, it took a lot of effort to prevent gun crews from takeing dangerous shortcuts with it - but I guess it lowered the NEQ and therefore made it easier to store. A classic case of 'Tail wagging Dog'


B