Return of the Sheep! - JocMeister(A) vs. MrKane(J)

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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Sangeli
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by Sangeli »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
Would I really get VPs for that? [X(]
I took a look in the manual regarding this question. I was wrong; you only get VPs for strat bombing the HI. Bombing Brisbane won't yield VPs this way.

Another idea I see thrown around is to pick bases which have large base VPs for the Allies then build up airfields and ports. The amount of VPs you get is the following:

Basic VP# x [ ( current size of port ) + ( current size of airfield x 2) ]

So if come late summer 1942 things look really desperate you can send your SeaBees to get up your VP count this way.
JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Sangeli
I don't think much supply can flow back over discontinuous dirt roads. Most of the supply that gets sucked up is probably from the Burma road rule which teleports from Rangoon to Tsuyung at a rate of 500 a day.

Oh it can. I had almost 1 million supply flow back from Haiphong all the way to Rangoon. [:D]
ORIGINAL: Sangeli
Well the PP cost for skeleton divisions after they've been nearly destroyed will be low :) Probably should use the restricted Chinese units to cover the retreat of the ones you can buy out and get them out ASAP. It sucks not getting the respawn but at least you'll have the production to fill out the handful of corps you pull out. Each of them alone takes 3 months of production to get to full strength so you can make good use of the production even with just a few corps.
I have been trying that. Not working out as planned. [:)] I have 2 Corps that can be bought out that I have been trying to get a bit torn up so I can buy them out. They got torn up alright but now I can´t get them out as they are cut off. [:D]
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JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
Would I really get VPs for that? [X(]
I took a look in the manual regarding this question. I was wrong; you only get VPs for strat bombing the HI. Bombing Brisbane won't yield VPs this way.

Another idea I see thrown around is to pick bases which have large base VPs for the Allies then build up airfields and ports. The amount of VPs you get is the following:

Basic VP# x [ ( current size of port ) + ( current size of airfield x 2) ]

So if come late summer 1942 things look really desperate you can send your SeaBees to get up your VP count this way.

Yeah I kind if figured it was too good to be true. [:)]

Yupp on point two. That is why Noumea is so golden. Its really the only allied base with a good allied multiplier that is attainable in 42. Other great bases are Singer, Rangoon and Manila.
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rook749
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by rook749 »

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

Another idea I see thrown around is to pick bases which have large base VPs for the Allies then build up airfields and ports. The amount of VPs you get is the following:

Basic VP# x [ ( current size of port ) + ( current size of airfield x 2) ]

So if come late summer 1942 things look really desperate you can send your SeaBees to get up your VP count this way.

I think you need to look at what can be done to work against the 4-1 VP trend.

1) Move the static/restricted US and Canadian Divisions and Brigades around the US building airfields and ports ASAP. Its not a ton of VPs but every little bit help.

2) Start prepping lots of small invasions. Every time the KB shows itself grab something, throw a small engineer unit into the base and build it up.

3) The point about OZ someone brought up is very good, fight there just to trade points. It should be easy to trade at a 2:1 or even a 3:1 ratio.

4) Plan for two or three large operations. Once you have them prepped, make sure the lift it sitting there waiting and when you confirm the location of the KB by spotting or signal intercept. Launch one or all of them.

In my current game the Allied VP total is inflated as things are going the Allied way but I have 422 Bases for 6511 points as of August 13th 1942. I do have all of New Caledonia and that helps.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
But I have to start working on my VPs....
You could aim to go for VPs through attrition. 1 to 1 VP trades will put you further from from the 3 to 1 auto victory. If you're really desperate you could destroy the industry in Brisbane while the Japanese control it. That could generate a fair amount of VPs with low risk and relatively low cost.

Would I really get VPs for that? [X(]

Based on the actual words in the Victory chapter, no, you wouldn't. I'm not sure anyone has ever tested it.

But if you're going to put bombers over Brisbane you should just go for something that has VPs and you don't have to pay to re-build. Troops?

As one more data point on VPs and auto-vic, in my game with Loka he absolutely cleaned my clock in China troop-wise. But the VP losses aren't that bad due to the Chinese multiplier rule. Look at Tracker on days you have those 4- and 5-figure losses in China. The VP swing isn't that bad I'm guessing. The Chinese corps don't have a lot of non-manpower devices to lose either.

To what others have said about going for a lot of 1-1 trades I'd also offer that you really haven't hurt this navy at all. He has re-supply running in a big, big way given his perimeter. I know most of your DDs are crap yet, but a few 2-3 DD hunting groups, looking for only merchants and PBs, would make him react. Midway can work for some. Pago Pago too if you risk an AD. LBA is the great boogieman, but DDs are nimble. If you lose one it's 8-10 VPs. A single big xAK is that, plus the supply he has to rebuild. Don't get tunnel vision that you have to fight warships. Warships shoot back!
[/quote]
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rook749
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by rook749 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Yupp on point two. That is why Noumea is so golden. Its really the only allied base with a good allied multiplier that is attainable in 42. Other great bases are Singer, Rangoon and Manila.

Here are the big point base for the Allies that you might be able to grab in 1942. It's easy to overlook Tahiti and the soviet ones. Make sure to make those out by the end of the year.

Chungking x100
Noumea x50
Canberra x30
Pearl Harbor x20
Krasnoyarsk x20
Tahiti x20
Auckland x10
Anchorage x10
Irkutsk x10
Socotra x10
Diego Garcia x10
tiemanjw
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by tiemanjw »

Sorry, I'm a little late to the party - just caught up.
What about NORPAC? You can go big or go small here, but the end result is either
a) he reacts - probably kicks your butt, but he is doing it here, and not in SOPAC.
b) he ignores you, and you can bomb Hokkaido. From a VP perspective, there are:
Kushiro (861 resources, 21 LI)
Asahikawa (61 resources, 21 LI, 6 oil)
Sapporo (901 resources, 41 HI, 121 LI, 6 oil)
These bases are all in range of B24s from the Kurile islands (once you build up an AF base).

From a risk perspective - you can go in with as few as 2 regiments... you can even back them out quickly - or not and rebuild them (somewhat) quickly, as they draw from the vast American pools. If he commits, he will drive you out - but you only lose what you put in.
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Lokasenna
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

Sorry, I'm a little late to the party - just caught up.
What about NORPAC? You can go big or go small here, but the end result is either
a) he reacts - probably kicks your butt, but he is doing it here, and not in SOPAC.
b) he ignores you, and you can bomb Hokkaido. From a VP perspective, there are:
Kushiro (861 resources, 21 LI)
Asahikawa (61 resources, 21 LI, 6 oil)
Sapporo (901 resources, 41 HI, 121 LI, 6 oil)
These bases are all in range of B24s from the Kurile islands (once you build up an AF base).

From a risk perspective - you can go in with as few as 2 regiments... you can even back them out quickly - or not and rebuild them (somewhat) quickly, as they draw from the vast American pools. If he commits, he will drive you out - but you only lose what you put in.

Taking and holding a base in the Kuriles capable of launching 4Es at this point in the war is impossible, unless the IJN squanders its ships. You'd need a level 5+ AF for B-17s, unsure if B-24s need 5 or 6, in order to fly with a full bombload.

ORIGINAL: rook749
ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Yupp on point two. That is why Noumea is so golden. Its really the only allied base with a good allied multiplier that is attainable in 42. Other great bases are Singer, Rangoon and Manila.

Here are the big point base for the Allies that you might be able to grab in 1942. It's easy to overlook Tahiti and the soviet ones. Make sure to make those out by the end of the year.

Chungking x100
Noumea x50
Canberra x30
Pearl Harbor x20
Krasnoyarsk x20
Tahiti x20
Auckland x10
Anchorage x10
Irkutsk x10
Socotra x10
Diego Garcia x10

Yes, these. Build 'em up. You can even find some that have a x2, but there aren't many. Also may as well build up the bases in CONUS...you've got many white-restricted divisions and regiments and base forces. The stuff (base forces, etc.) that's on its way to the front can be used to build up your hub ports such as San Francisco/Seattle/etc.

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
But I have to start working on my VPs....
You could aim to go for VPs through attrition. 1 to 1 VP trades will put you further from from the 3 to 1 auto victory. If you're really desperate you could destroy the industry in Brisbane while the Japanese control it. That could generate a fair amount of VPs with low risk and relatively low cost.

Agree... what about Burma/India? You can get some airfields built in the Calcutta/Assam area and then begin offensive operations of your own at a range of 4-6 hexes: short enough for Hurricanes, P-39s, P-40s, etc. Also you'll get more 4E groups soon, I think? You can use those to pound airfields and destroy planes on the ground. Like at Brisbane...

If KB ever shows itself somewhere far from Brisbane, you could bomb and bombard the crap out of the AF/Port pretty much at your leisure. Without the heart of the Australian industry centered around Sydney/Melbourne (which he is bombing out anyway), he'll have to ship in so much supply...you should have hundreds of thousands pouring into Australia very soon, whichever way you bring it in, so you should be able to win in Australia simply from supply attrition alone - whether KB leaves or not.

This is also going to be a good area for your S-boats: able to refuel/rearm at Sydney, and if KB sticks around for a long period of time there's going to be AOs...go a-hunting with those S-boats.


I think at some point, you'll just have to do something, even if it means being a little impatient. Because even a 2:1 in his favor benefits you in terms of avoiding AV, so long as you nab a couple hundred points of your own in the bargain.
Spidery
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by Spidery »

In my game against MrKane, at the end of 1942 I controlled all of China, Darwin and some Northern Australia bases, Western Aleutians, and the usual suspects. From day one he had started building up bases, including those in the Soviet Union.

On Jan 1st 1943 the VP totals stood at 37550 to 12975.

The Japanese had 15698 base points and the Allies had 6155. Since AV wasn't on the cards, I had stopped developing Chinese bases so I could have picked up a thousand or so more VP in base points.

There are a lot of bases in China with a x10 multiple for Japan and these can all be developed to size 4 airfields without too much difficulty. Sining and Lanchow have x50 multipliers and Tsuyung and Kunming have x25 multipliers.
tiemanjw
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by tiemanjw »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

Sorry, I'm a little late to the party - just caught up.
What about NORPAC? You can go big or go small here, but the end result is either
a) he reacts - probably kicks your butt, but he is doing it here, and not in SOPAC.
b) he ignores you, and you can bomb Hokkaido. From a VP perspective, there are:
Kushiro (861 resources, 21 LI)
Asahikawa (61 resources, 21 LI, 6 oil)
Sapporo (901 resources, 41 HI, 121 LI, 6 oil)
These bases are all in range of B24s from the Kurile islands (once you build up an AF base).

From a risk perspective - you can go in with as few as 2 regiments... you can even back them out quickly - or not and rebuild them (somewhat) quickly, as they draw from the vast American pools. If he commits, he will drive you out - but you only lose what you put in.

Taking and holding a base in the Kuriles capable of launching 4Es at this point in the war is impossible, unless the IJN squanders its ships. You'd need a level 5+ AF for B-17s, unsure if B-24s need 5 or 6, in order to fly with a full bombload.

I know you need to build it up... but my point is that either Mr. Kane has to spend resources (opportunity cost of strategic assets) to stop the build up, or he ignores it, and at some point you have a size 5 AF. Putting it another way, you get him to react to you (faaaaaaar away from where he is now), or you bomb the crap out of him to get some VPs.
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Sangeli
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by Sangeli »

ORIGINAL: Spidery
There are a lot of bases in China with a x10 multiple for Japan and these can all be developed to size 4 airfields without too much difficulty. Sining and Lanchow have x50 multipliers and Tsuyung and Kunming have x25 multipliers.
Except China won't exist soon so it's a mute point.

I rather like this idea though:
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
To what others have said about going for a lot of 1-1 trades I'd also offer that you really haven't hurt this navy at all. He has re-supply running in a big, big way given his perimeter. I know most of your DDs are crap yet, but a few 2-3 DD hunting groups, looking for only merchants and PBs, would make him react. Midway can work for some. Pago Pago too if you risk an AD. LBA is the great boogieman, but DDs are nimble. If you lose one it's 8-10 VPs. A single big xAK is that, plus the supply he has to rebuild. Don't get tunnel vision that you have to fight warships. Warships shoot back!
You'd be surprised what a few fleets of marauder DD's and CL's can do for the Allies in 1942. There are still lots of LBA holes in the Japanese defenses to sneak through in early 1942. Getting AD's to important Pacific bases is important but it's probably just as important to build up some fuel in smaller more forward bases as the Allies. The WWI era destroyers that you want for this type of mission have short range so the less distance they have to go between refueling and raiding the better. Having a distributed network of AO's is also another alternative although it would require more resources.
Wuffer
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by Wuffer »

following both sides, so nothing to add here, with the only exception of a big thx for making such a detailed AAR!
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Lowpe
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by Lowpe »

I still think the Allies will be ok...there will be lots of opportunities to get some victory points.
JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

Thanks for all the advice guys! [&o]

I´m already expanding every base in WC, Canada, SU and select bases in OZ/NZ/India and have been from day 1. [:)]

This is from the last week:
Port Hueneme expands airfield to size 6
Iman expands airfield to size 5
Suchan expands airfield to size 4
Rybolov expands airfield to size 7
San Luis Obispo expands airfield to size 5
Prince Rupert expands port to size 6
Anadyr expands airfield to size 2
Chita expands airfield to size 7

Regarding marauding TFs I have had a TF centered around Concord, Raleigh and Detroit backed up by 3 AOs roaming the Pacific. They have been south of Tokyo, East of the Marianas and North of Truk but have yet to find anything. Tom may or may not know I´m there. I got a 2/2 DL on two occasions. Once South of Guam and once North of Iwo Jima.

I had to pull them back for now as the oilers ran dry after 2 months of operations. They are currently upgrading at PH. But will return to their duties shortly. [:)]

Regarding NOPAC I share Lokas view on the impossibility of it. I´m too short on everything and it would be too easy for Tom to close such an operation down. The assets would be more useful in other places. [:)]

Here is the Intel screen. As can been seen there are three areas that definitively need work. Ship losses, air losses and Ground losses.

As Lowpe says I still have an opportunity to turn this boat around. Its 8 more months to go. But I´ll admit I´m not very optimistic. With the fall of Manila I will lose another 1100 VPs while Tom will gain probably 1500-2000 from the base and LCU losses. With the fall of Java and soon the PI Tom will have 4 fresh IDs ready for new operations.

It will be tense and if I make it I´m sure it will be by a very close margin.



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JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

For comparison I found a screen from my game vs Joseph from December 42.

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JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

Heh,

Actually found one from my game with Erik in his AAR.

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Encircled
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by Encircled »

I reckon you will be fine.

I can't see him invading into the teeth of your defence now the amphib bonus is over.

If he piles his effort into building up the bases for VP, then you can outbuild him.



JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

Interestingly enough they are actually not that different. Especially of you look at the one from Eriks game and this one.

That being said it was both me and Eriks first PBEM and Erik never did push far out from the historical boundaries. With at least 4 fresh IDs released from Java/PI a push for Ceylon or a heavy reinforcement of SOPAC to keep my away from VPs wouldn´t surprise me.
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JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

[font="Verdana"] 12th of April -42 [/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Things calm down for two days.

------------------------
China
------------------------

No more attacks here but bombardments. I think Tom need 2-3 days more to get his troops forward. Some units managed to move out of the overstacked hex. Troops are now down to 85k. Still no supply.

------------------------
SOPAC/OZ
------------------------

With a NavGuard at Nadi MKB turns back to pick up more troops at Noumea. I have a crapload of subs in the area but despite all of them having a 0 DL no attacks have been made.

I´m making the first preparations for the counter attack in OZ.

------------------------
KB
------------------------

I havn´ts seen the KB in 3-4 weeks now. Since no update are scheduled until June/July -42 I can only assume they are shifting theater. I think he will use the troops from Java/PI and make a landing either at Ceylon or in the Calcutta region. Most likely Ceylon as India is probably a bit too late now.

------------------------
West Coast
------------------------

Ran into this bunch 4 days ago. Luckily Charleston managed to screen the TF so the rest of the TF could evade. We then avoided them the following day by doing a 360 at full speed.
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 05, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near San Diego at 220,98, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
AMC Kinryu Maru
AMC Awata Maru
AMC Kongo Maru
AMC Nosiro Maru, Shell hits 1
AMC Bankok Maru, Shell hits 2


Allied Ships
PG Charleston
PC Atalanta
TK Mobilgas, Shell hits 3
TK H. M. Storey, Shell hits 3, on fire
TK L. P. St. Clair
TK Osthav, Shell hits 2, on fire

I spotted the TF SE of PH 2 days ago. Trying to make an intercept and is slowly closing the noose.
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JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

[font="Verdana"] 13th of April -42 [/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Well, finally found a use for those fuel guzzling BBs...

------------------------
CENTPAC
------------------------

I did manage to intercept about half the AMC TF. It was a once sided affair...
Day Time Surface Combat, near Lihue at 182,93, Range 23,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
AMC Kinryu Maru, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
AMC Awata Maru, Shell hits 21, and is sunk
AMC Kongo Maru, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage


Allied Ships
BB West Virginia
BB Arizona
DD Meredith
DD Gwin
DD Grayson, Shell hits 1
DD Monssen
DD O'Brien
DD Walke
Day Time Surface Combat, near Lihue at 182,92, Range 22,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 2 destroyed

Japanese Ships
AMC Kongo Maru, Shell hits 11, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB West Virginia
BB Arizona
DD Meredith
DD Gwin
DD Grayson
DD Monssen
DD O'Brien
DD Walke

I´ll continue to hunt the others but I´m sure they took a completely different route. For now I´ll use the old BBs for escort between PH and the WC. I´ll also use two BBs to escort TFs to and from the WC for a while.

------------------------
China
------------------------

Ouch.
Ground combat at 82,43 (near Ankang)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 43295 troops, 919 guns, 573 vehicles, Assault Value = 992

Defending force 26801 troops, 180 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 409

Japanese adjusted assault: 740

Allied adjusted defense: 286

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
supply(-)

Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
1490 casualties reported
Squads: 20 destroyed, 92 disabled
Non Combat: 9 destroyed, 23 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 18 (8 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Vehicles lost 31 (3 destroyed, 28 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
9505 casualties reported
Squads: 393 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 315 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 15 destroyed, 4 disabled
Guns lost 30 (20 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Units retreated 6

Tom did launch the first attack at the overstacked hex. While it did a little better then expected I don´t think I will last another attack. So it seems any hope of getting to the mountains before the entire army in the woods is surrounded is gone.

Getting 300.000 men cut off and surrounded is going to suck.

Ground combat at 80,40 (near Kienko)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 37497 troops, 429 guns, 435 vehicles, Assault Value = 997

Defending force 41185 troops, 176 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 966

Japanese adjusted assault: 634

Allied adjusted defense: 481

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
642 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 52 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Vehicles lost 13 (5 destroyed, 8 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
1465 casualties reported
Squads: 21 destroyed, 179 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 25 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 10 disabled
Guns lost 22 (4 destroyed, 18 disabled)

Assaulting units:
8th Armored Car Co
37th Division
15th Division
1st Recon Regiment


Defending units:
2nd Chinese Corps
74th Chinese Corps
17th Chinese Corps
100th Chinese Corps
2nd War Area
15th Group Army
39th Group Army
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