How to take Greece?

[composer99]

A minor power that is declared war on aligns to a major power subject to the rules in §19.2.

The limiting factor is not the status of the aggressor power, but rather the status of the (potential) aligning powers. In the case of an Italian attack on Greece, the aligning major power has to be an active Allied major power at the time of the declaration of war.

19.2 Entering the war
A minor country enters the war when:
- a major power declares war on it (it joins the other side); or
- it aligns with a major power (see 9.8).

If a minor country aligns with a major power, it is controlled by that major power.

If an Axis major power declares war on a minor country on the American map, it may only align with the USA.

When Germany makes her compulsory declaration of war on Poland (see 9.3), it may only align with the Commonwealth.

In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it.

If there is more than one eligible major power, offer the minor to the major power whose capital city is closest to the minor’s capital (any home country in the case of the Commonwealth). If it declines, offer it to the next closest, and so on.

If every eligible major power declines, the minor (and all its controlled minors and territories) is immediately conquered by the attacking major power (see 13.7.1).

[Courtenay]

If an Axis power declares war on a minor country, any active Allied power may align it. (Exception: When Germany DOWs Poland, there are no active Allied powers; the CW, only, may align Poland.)

For example, if Italy DOWs Greece, the CW may align it. Any active Allied power's forces may enter Greece. If that power is not at war with Italy, then the peacekeeper rule applies to those forces. Note that if the CW aligned Greece, then German forces may enter Greece, and, since the CW and Germany are at war, CW forces may attack German ones, and the Germans can attack Greek and CW forces in Greece.

In my opinion, the peacekeeper rule is one of the worst rules in WiF. At no point in the war did any situation that even approximated the peacekeeper rule ever occur. If you send your forces to fight an invasion of a minor country, you should be at war with that country. This is not what the WiF rules say, but it is what I think the WiF rules should say. The Germans, for example, never contemplated sending troops to fight the Russians during the Winter War.

[composer99]

All right, maybe I'll re-cap all this.

Italy is neutral (not at war with an Allied major power) and declares war on Greece. Let's say this happens in Jul/Aug 1940 and USSR and USA are still neutral, China is still in and France hasn't been crushed yet.

Per §19.2, Greece must align to an active Allied major power (because it's neither Poland nor on the Americas map). Since the CW, France, and China are all eligible the first choice goes to whomever has the closest capital, which is probably France. Let's say France declines and CW agrees to align Greece.

The CW can bring troops in, as can the Germans (because Greece is aligned to a major power Germany is at war with).

CW forces in Greece can't attack Italians, because CW is not at war with Italy. But Italians can attack CW units, because Italy is at war with Greece and the CW units are in Greek hexes. The CW can use defensive shore bombardment or defensive ground support.

Clear as mud? [:)]

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Actually, you forgot to mention, China can never align a minor power. They're special that way.

[composer99]

There's always some rule to forget.

[Numdydar]

Back to the OP as I would like to know how the Axis could take Greece without invading Yugoslavia?

I assume Italy building a Marine, Amph, and Para would be in order. Or is that too risky? Or is it just impossible without invading Yugoslavia against a competent Allied player.

[brian brian]

and there is a rule that minors in North or South America may only align with the USA


but, yes, the "Peacekeeper" rule is one of the worst in the game

[brian brian]

and if the Italians are going to build PARAs and MARines, they have much better things they can accomplish with them, imo


the Axis can take Greece whenever it wants after the fall of France and before war with the USSR by just simply applying lots of airpower = The Luftwaffe. Use of Bulgaria certainly helps.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

What don't you like about the peacekeeper rule?



Edit: And for Italian builds, it's probably more efficient to let the Germans build the Mar andd have him just hop off an Italian transport. I always promise myself I'll build an amph as the Italians, never seem to get around to it.

Mostly, it's Navs and FTRs. I would probably make one of those things, not all three. That's a bit too much of a sacrifice of raw power.

[paulderynck]

A better question would be what do people like about the peacekeeper rule.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: composer99

All right, maybe I'll re-cap all this.

Italy is neutral (not at war with an Allied major power) and declares war on Greece. Let's say this happens in Jul/Aug 1940 and USSR and USA are still neutral, China is still in and France hasn't been crushed yet.

Per §19.2, Greece must align to an active Allied major power (because it's neither Poland nor on the Americas map). Since the CW, France, and China are all eligible the first choice goes to whomever has the closest capital, which is probably France. Let's say France declines and CW agrees to align Greece.

The CW can bring troops in, as can the Germans (because Greece is aligned to a major power Germany is at war with).

CW forces in Greece can't attack Italians, because CW is not at war with Italy. But Italians can attack CW units, because Italy is at war with Greece and the CW units are in Greek hexes. The CW can use defensive shore bombardment or defensive ground support.

Clear as mud? [:)]

Thanks for that. Another matter would be: Could then the CW shore bombardment help greek units? I think not, only CW's.

And, would that alignment have any effect in the American Entry? I mean get a roll? I think not, too, but still...

[Joseignacio]

The situation I am planning, if I may comment it here, is pretty much more difficult than just invading Greece.

In my game, the URSS player has claimed the Finnish borderlands, Finland has rejected to, and there is a war. He did it in the first impulse and he was very lucky he didn't get out of American Entry Chits, for he had at that moment 2 chits and he lost 1 and 80% to lose the second (That's mainly why I let that become a war). Had he lost 2 chits he would have had to decide whether he didn't take East Poland or face a 70% probability that USA would NEVER enter war.

After that, in just 2 turns I have been very successful there, losing very few units and killing several URSS ones, getting the Finnish reserves, sending like 3 or 4 peacekeepers, et al. I even killed his HQ and made him spend some offensive points. However, I don't have a good feeling on how this will end. The peacekeepers limitations are too big.

But in the meantime (and I hope they'll resist several more turns), the URSS cannot claim reasonably Bessarabia. This lets me think on sending the Italians to Greece and maybe the GE that I don't really need in France and are not busy in Poland or Finland. Problem is the Luftwaffe, I need it in France.

If I take Greece, I can align Yugoslavia, and this way, Romania can be aligned too, if GE controls Belgrade, which means GE has conquered GR, not IT (that could be done after the conquer, sending a GE unit to Athens...

This way I would have the GR resource to milk for al the game (lots of BPs), the YU units for free, for garrison purposes, the YU coastal territory protected with notionals (mainly rocky hexes), possibility to align previous to the war with URSS a Romania with Bessarabia, plus I wouldn't lose the URSS resource of the Bess request. Few "cons" on the other side.

But to achieve this without smashing valuable YU or without Bessarabia (so I cannot align Bulgaria), my attack needs to be done exclusively from Albania and posibly invasions, this makes it more difficult to surrender GR in one turn, making it easier for CW to reinforce, to the point that it could even align YU if they can have 4 corps in Greece...

[composer99]

Thanks for that. Another matter would be: Could then the CW shore bombardment help greek units? I think not, only CW's.

The rules clear that up:

You can only support an attack against units you control if the supporting units are the same nationality as the unit (or hex during strategic bombardment) being attacked or at war with at least one major power or minor country attacking those units (or hexes).

and

Example 3: The USSR is launching a land attack against German controlled Finnish units in Helsinki, before Germany and the USSR are at war. The Germans could fly Finnish aircraft in support, but could not fly German aircraft nor provide German shore bombardment unless a German land unit was also in Helsinki.

---

And, would that alignment have any effect in the American Entry? I mean get a roll? I think not, too, but still...

Do you mean the US entry action for Allies support minor if the CW gets 4 corps into Greece? I don't see why not.

Italy gets a US entry action hit for declaring war on Greece in this instance, so CW wouldn't get one for aligning Greece.

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

The situation I am planning, if I may comment it here, is pretty much more difficult than just invading Greece.

In my game, the URSS player has claimed the Finnish borderlands, Finland has rejected to, and there is a war. He did it in the first impulse and he was very lucky he didn't get out of American Entry Chits, for he had at that moment 2 chits and he lost 1 and 80% to lose the second (That's mainly why I let that become a war). Had he lost 2 chits he would have had to decide whether he didn't take East Poland or face a 70% probability that USA would NEVER enter war.

After that, in just 2 turns I have been very successful there, losing very few units and killing several URSS ones, getting the Finnish reserves, sending like 3 or 4 peacekeepers, et al. I even killed his HQ and made him spend some offensive points. However, I don't have a good feeling on how this will end. The peacekeepers limitations are too big.

But in the meantime (and I hope they'll resist several more turns), the URSS cannot claim reasonably Bessarabia. This lets me think on sending the Italians to Greece and maybe the GE that I don't really need in France and are not busy in Poland or Finland. Problem is the Luftwaffe, I need it in France.

If I take Greece, I can align Yugoslavia, and this way, Romania can be aligned too, if GE controls Belgrade, which means GE has conquered GR, not IT (that could be done after the conquer, sending a GE unit to Athens...

This way I would have the GR resource to milk for al the game (lots of BPs), the YU units for free, for garrison purposes, the YU coastal territory protected with notionals (mainly rocky hexes), possibility to align previous to the war with URSS a Romania with Bessarabia, plus I wouldn't lose the URSS resource of the Bess request. Few "cons" on the other side.

But to achieve this without smashing valuable YU or without Bessarabia (so I cannot align Bulgaria), my attack needs to be done exclusively from Albania and posibly invasions, this makes it more difficult to surrender GR in one turn, making it easier for CW to reinforce, to the point that it could even align YU if they can have 4 corps in Greece...

Germany can align Bulgaria once Germany is at war with Greece.

Not that that means much when you can't get units through by rail to Bulgaria, but still, it might help.

I would say how well you do in this situation will depend on how committed the CW is to France and how well you can control the Eastern Med.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

It stops tremendous levels of bullshit, like the Soviets declaring war on Belgium the first chance they get.


Re: Joseignacio


Plan doesn't work I'm afraid, at least not if you want to get this done before you declare war on the USSR. Axis need to control Athens, Albania, Rumania, Hungary, and Bulgaria to align Yugo, and if he hasn't demanded Bessarabia, you can't align Rumania without daclaring war with the Soviets or being at war with Yugoslavia.


You're probably better off attacking the Yugoslavs, and aligning Rumania and Hungary, and just ignoring Greece if you want to protect Rumania and pre-empt Bessarabia.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Thanks for that. Another matter would be: Could then the CW shore bombardment help greek units? I think not, only CW's.

The rules clear that up:

You can only support an attack against units you control if the supporting units are the same nationality as the unit (or hex during strategic bombardment) being attacked or at war with at least one major power or minor country attacking those units (or hexes).

and

Example 3: The USSR is launching a land attack against German controlled Finnish units in Helsinki, before Germany and the USSR are at war. The Germans could fly Finnish aircraft in support, but could not fly German aircraft nor provide German shore bombardment unless a German land unit was also in Helsinki.

Thanks, that's what I thought, I always have problems with some rules like Multiples Sytates of War and Vichy, and I don't like the way they work.

---

And, would that alignment have any effect in the American Entry? I mean get a roll? I think not, too, but still...

Do you mean the US entry action for Allies support minor if the CW gets 4 corps into Greece? I don't see why not.

Italy gets a US entry action hit for declaring war on Greece in this instance, so CW wouldn't get one for aligning Greece.

No, I understand that with the Allies Support it is due. I have got that roll for myself.

I was wondering (but I think it's a stupid question, now that I think about it) if IT and GE declare war to Greece (there is a roll) and then CW aligns the country. It's not a normal alignment but a consequence of the war declared, so I guess you don't have to roll for a possible loss of a USA entry chit as well. If there is a roll for that, I have very bad memory and I don't have the chart at hand here.

We don't IIRW, but you never know if you're doing things right.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: composer99

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

The situation I am planning, if I may comment it here, is pretty much more difficult than just invading Greece.

In my game, the URSS player has claimed the Finnish borderlands, Finland has rejected to, and there is a war. He did it in the first impulse and he was very lucky he didn't get out of American Entry Chits, for he had at that moment 2 chits and he lost 1 and 80% to lose the second (That's mainly why I let that become a war). Had he lost 2 chits he would have had to decide whether he didn't take East Poland or face a 70% probability that USA would NEVER enter war.

After that, in just 2 turns I have been very successful there, losing very few units and killing several URSS ones, getting the Finnish reserves, sending like 3 or 4 peacekeepers, et al. I even killed his HQ and made him spend some offensive points. However, I don't have a good feeling on how this will end. The peacekeepers limitations are too big.

But in the meantime (and I hope they'll resist several more turns), the URSS cannot claim reasonably Bessarabia. This lets me think on sending the Italians to Greece and maybe the GE that I don't really need in France and are not busy in Poland or Finland. Problem is the Luftwaffe, I need it in France.

If I take Greece, I can align Yugoslavia, and this way, Romania can be aligned too, if GE controls Belgrade, which means GE has conquered GR, not IT (that could be done after the conquer, sending a GE unit to Athens...

This way I would have the GR resource to milk for al the game (lots of BPs), the YU units for free, for garrison purposes, the YU coastal territory protected with notionals (mainly rocky hexes), possibility to align previous to the war with URSS a Romania with Bessarabia, plus I wouldn't lose the URSS resource of the Bess request. Few "cons" on the other side.

But to achieve this without smashing valuable YU or without Bessarabia (so I cannot align Bulgaria), my attack needs to be done exclusively from Albania and posibly invasions, this makes it more difficult to surrender GR in one turn, making it easier for CW to reinforce, to the point that it could even align YU if they can have 4 corps in Greece...

Germany can align Bulgaria once Germany is at war with Greece.

Not that that means much when you can't get units through by rail to Bulgaria, but still, it might help.

I would say how well you do in this situation will depend on how committed the CW is to France and how well you can control the Eastern Med.

To be true, it does not help if you are not attacking Yu, like I was intending. You cannot align Ro and I think neither Hu, so they simply cannot reach.

The main problem is that all my units would come from Albania and some greek port if my mates are kind of stupid (which is not usual but could happen) and prefer defend in the mountains in the very first impulse, to getting a ZOC in southern ports.

However, with the new rules we are playing, the minors would get their reserves as soon as their turn started, although face down, so he can do both, one unit blocking Albanian units, another the ports south. And in his turn he gets the RES in Athens. Later, the CW comes...

In case I don't menace Athens with a Para, probably from Leros (IT island close to Turkey)...

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

It stops tremendous levels of bullshit, like the Soviets declaring war on Belgium the first chance they get.


Re: Joseignacio


Plan doesn't work I'm afraid, at least not if you want to get this done before you declare war on the USSR. Axis need to control Athens, Albania, Rumania, Hungary, and Bulgaria to align Yugo, and if he hasn't demanded Bessarabia, you can't align Rumania without daclaring war with the Soviets or being at war with Yugoslavia.


You're probably better off attacking the Yugoslavs, and aligning Rumania and Hungary, and just ignoring Greece if you want to protect Rumania and pre-empt Bessarabia.

It is starting to look like you're right...

I could start the process once I take Paris, rebasing stukas an all... If there are still some good weather impulses in that 1940 (don't think it will be difficult although it might cost Offensives if luck is adverse) I could have the IT prepared in Albania, as well as cruisers with divs, and transports with corps to follow if successful.

If I have time to bring the stukas, then I could declare war with GE too, and have some high mobility inf in Albania too. Through sheer unit movements I could unsupply and hopefully disorganize the unit blocking from Albania and the attack to Athens should be possible if I can get the three hexes around and stop british from joining. I think a good idea would be to do this just when the BEF leaves France, they only have their 4 original transports (I sunk the NED when trying to rebase after overrun following ROtterdam ocupation in surprise), so they only will have 4 TRS and 2-3 will be busy, and maybe the others not close enough to the area (I need to check this again).

I still don't dismiss the possibility to do this if there is few CW presence and with the help of stukas... [&:]

[Centuur]

I would say that you are doing so well with the Finns/Germans against the USSR, that it looks like it will take the Russians a lot of time to clear this mess up.

So, take out France and look how things develop in Finland (don't forget to rebuild as many Finnish troops by Germany as possible, if they get lost in the battles there).

It sounds to me that the USSR wasn't prepared for a fight in Finland at all.

Greece? Sounds nice, but the Axis need fast INF in there, and those are probably the same that Germany needs in France (or Finland) at the moment...

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I would say that you are doing so well with the Finns/Germans against the USSR, that it looks like it will take the Russians a lot of time to clear this mess up.

So, take out France and look how things develop in Finland (don't forget to rebuild as many Finnish troops by Germany as possible, if they get lost in the battles there).

It sounds to me that the USSR wasn't prepared for a fight in Finland at all.

Greece? Sounds nice, but the Axis need fast INF in there, and those are probably the same that Germany needs in France (or Finland) at the moment...

Thx for the input.

The Ruskis were as prepared as they could be in turn 1 of the game. They had very few unints but they brought almost all to FInland. 1 HQ, 1 art, and 3 corps to Múrmansk, one garrison and something else to Leningrad, from where they invaded too. Plus all the Air force.

What was luck was the rain, which divided by 4 the factors attacking Lappland (although double roll, of course). And the rolls themselves, although they were rolling 1s, there were still possibiities.

The rest was calculated. The Ge units in Transports, a div in a cruiser, ..., and the following turn the same.

However, the situation there is not as good as it seems. We both knew that Lappland is vital for the defense of the hexes around Helsinki, but I was afraid because he had a 5 units' stack in Múrmansk, so I left the hex empty by the middle of the second turn, after an attack on his part where he got disorganized, but he wanted to take that hex, so he spent some O Points to restore his HQ and move to Lappland, but then all my finnish units attacked and his HQ was destroyed in a terribly lucky roll by me (28 with 3 D10).

This is how it went in FInland, but I am pretty worried about the arrival of Zhukhov HQ and the fact that he can attack from Murmansk a couple of hexes that would unsupply some of my units, Vyborg and adjacents ...

I am not so sure I can hold more than 2 turns. If things go well I could maybe resist 4 turns or so, but that would be lucky. I might be dead in one turn too.

The front in France is not so big even if it grows when I break into it. In Poland I can leave 4/5 units, one of them in port, to help in Finland if necessary.
I still have fast moving GE INF that I don't really need in France. I could send 2 or more to Albania, but then I need to prepare that NOW, because IT has only 2 transports and if I want to move 2 GE and like 4 or 6 IT to Albania, this means 3-4 trips (turns) plus the invasión one. I hope by then Paris is in my hands.