Aside:
I continue to learn lessons from the Downfall game with m-m.
I think IJN submarines are only good against convoys in the deep sea far away from land base air. Even then, they really are victory points ready for plucking by the Allies. There may be a use for the Torpedo carrying submarines if I make it that far.
There is B29 extended range, and then there is Thunderbolt extended range and then Thunderbolt LRCAP range. Can the Ki-202 stand up to the Thunderbolt perhaps trading 2 or 3 202s for each Thunderbolt - that is the 64 million dollar question.
Irving is a decent NF when there are no other choices, but get Myrt, Frances, soon and ditch Irving. Denko looks nice, but SR4 doesn't cut it. Frances looks the best, but is expensive. Myrt is much better than it looks on paper. Plan to augment normal nightfighters with regular fighters switched over with the aim of disrupting attacks.
After lots of night bombing attacks versus Allied shipping, one pilot so far has been willing to die for the Emperor and he missed or was destroyed by flak. No night bombing of ships achieved any hits.
There are so many Allied units, it is easy to suffer turn fatigue. Perhaps this is simply because I haven't played 4 years to get here, but still...wow.
Recon, Naval search, day and night, is still King!
Ok, Captain Obvious out.[:D]
Turnaround? Lowpe (J) vs Tiemanj (A) Stock
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
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mind_messing
- Posts: 3394
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 am
RE: Burma Bungle!
In the defence of the IJN, everything floating is toast by this point.
I'll second the motion about the Myrt. It perhaps isn't the best night fighter, but it is the best all-round IJN night fighter by far.
As a point of reference, I've lost 2 Ki-201's to Ops losses, and that squadron has five kills from one engagement.
As a general note about the air war - it wouldn't be this skewed in a campaign starting from December 7th. Any good Japanese player will have a big pool of trained fighter pilots to draw upon, rather than me stocking frontline squadrons with rookies and telling them to learn to fly or die and having every rear-area squadron train frantically in the hope of gathering a few hundred fighter pilots with decent skills.
I'm finding it an excellent educational exercise into what the late-game is going to be like.
I'll second the motion about the Myrt. It perhaps isn't the best night fighter, but it is the best all-round IJN night fighter by far.
As a point of reference, I've lost 2 Ki-201's to Ops losses, and that squadron has five kills from one engagement.
As a general note about the air war - it wouldn't be this skewed in a campaign starting from December 7th. Any good Japanese player will have a big pool of trained fighter pilots to draw upon, rather than me stocking frontline squadrons with rookies and telling them to learn to fly or die and having every rear-area squadron train frantically in the hope of gathering a few hundred fighter pilots with decent skills.
I'm finding it an excellent educational exercise into what the late-game is going to be like.
RE: Burma Bungle!
ORIGINAL: mind_messing
In the defence of the IJN, everything floating is toast by this point.
Is there a safe place to hide the Navy? Russia will be getting active, so my guess is nowhere.
I'll second the motion about the Myrt. It perhaps isn't the best night fighter, but it is the best all-round IJN night fighter by far.
Pax likes the Myrt, and he is the end war Japan expert. It must be the speed.
As a point of reference, I've lost 2 Ki-201's to Ops losses, and that squadron has five kills from one engagement.
That particular fight was a mistake for me, as the Thunderbolts flew two consecutive days, so perhaps slightly better results than normal, but the 201's are great end war planes -- a potential game changer.
As a general note about the air war - it wouldn't be this skewed in a campaign starting from December 7th. Any good Japanese player will have a big pool of trained fighter pilots to draw upon, rather than me stocking frontline squadrons with rookies and telling them to learn to fly or die and having every rear-area squadron train frantically in the hope of gathering a few hundred fighter pilots with decent skills.
Agreed, the air war to start has Japan with tons of obsolete planes,and very poor pilots. Allies start with most units having 35 to 50 morale. However, there are only 2-3 Thunderbolt squadrons forward in Downfall at start. I am disappointed in the few fights the Oscar IV has had against bombers.
I'm finding it an excellent educational exercise into what the late-game is going to be like.
One final note: I had been hoping to use strafing runs by Nicks/Oscars to engage Fletcher task forces. Have to rethink that one...Allied flak on down low is fearsome.
RE: Burma Bungle!
Economy:
I am not happy with my vehicle pools, or lack thereof. I have 190 factories, if you remember vehicle factories where never expanded from Dec 7th 41 to when I took over Aug 42. So I am going to expand vehicle production again gradually -- maybe all the way up to 240. I will do it slowly,over time, so I can crunch numbers more fully.
Armaments: I have 182K. To conserve HI I idled 170 factories which I am going to turn back on. I have a lot of heavy artillery at risk in Burma, and replacing just the normal bombardment damage for them is quite expensive. I don't want to be short in 45.
Naval: Early on I cancelled all the xakl ships, but left most everything else on but underfunded. I will take a closer look here...
Supplies: The major worry. Any advice at savings here are appreciated. I am on target to hit my goal of 6 million supplies, but more would be nicer. A lot of that supply will get consumed by final generation fighter builds and engine builds for the bloodbath that will be 45 and beyond.
This is the Japanese conundrum. You need VP to avoid AV, and to get VP you need to spend supplies. But you need to conserve supplies to fight in 45.
Below is Obvert's ending tracker economy shot -- scenario 1. He made it to July 1, but he was in no position to fight the Soviets...maybe you simply can't be in a scen 1 game.
I am not happy with my vehicle pools, or lack thereof. I have 190 factories, if you remember vehicle factories where never expanded from Dec 7th 41 to when I took over Aug 42. So I am going to expand vehicle production again gradually -- maybe all the way up to 240. I will do it slowly,over time, so I can crunch numbers more fully.
Armaments: I have 182K. To conserve HI I idled 170 factories which I am going to turn back on. I have a lot of heavy artillery at risk in Burma, and replacing just the normal bombardment damage for them is quite expensive. I don't want to be short in 45.
Naval: Early on I cancelled all the xakl ships, but left most everything else on but underfunded. I will take a closer look here...
Supplies: The major worry. Any advice at savings here are appreciated. I am on target to hit my goal of 6 million supplies, but more would be nicer. A lot of that supply will get consumed by final generation fighter builds and engine builds for the bloodbath that will be 45 and beyond.
This is the Japanese conundrum. You need VP to avoid AV, and to get VP you need to spend supplies. But you need to conserve supplies to fight in 45.
Below is Obvert's ending tracker economy shot -- scenario 1. He made it to July 1, but he was in no position to fight the Soviets...maybe you simply can't be in a scen 1 game.
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RE: Burma Bungle!
RE: Supply conservation...
Almost everything uses supply. Save it everywhere you can. Only run recon every other day, for example. Or 2 days out of every 3. This saves on planes as well as the supplies to fly the actual mission. Be sure you have extra pilots in all of your units. This will save on ops losses, and thus on replacement aircraft. All of that kind of thing is "small potatoes", sure...but it might add up to about 100-200k supply during a game, or maybe more. And in September 1945, that sure seems like a lot, right?
Big stuff? Don't have 8x30 R&D factories for the Ki-202 [:)]. I think R&Ding multiple generations is what kills Japan. Pick stuff and stick with it from the beginning. 5x30 factories is 150k supply, plus whatever you had to spend to expand them. That really adds up. Also daily bombardments...make sure that what you're doing with the bombing/bombardment is worth it. If you aren't getting any casualties, or very few, maybe you need to stop bombarding. It burns a lot of supply if you aren't careful.
Almost everything uses supply. Save it everywhere you can. Only run recon every other day, for example. Or 2 days out of every 3. This saves on planes as well as the supplies to fly the actual mission. Be sure you have extra pilots in all of your units. This will save on ops losses, and thus on replacement aircraft. All of that kind of thing is "small potatoes", sure...but it might add up to about 100-200k supply during a game, or maybe more. And in September 1945, that sure seems like a lot, right?
Big stuff? Don't have 8x30 R&D factories for the Ki-202 [:)]. I think R&Ding multiple generations is what kills Japan. Pick stuff and stick with it from the beginning. 5x30 factories is 150k supply, plus whatever you had to spend to expand them. That really adds up. Also daily bombardments...make sure that what you're doing with the bombing/bombardment is worth it. If you aren't getting any casualties, or very few, maybe you need to stop bombarding. It burns a lot of supply if you aren't careful.
RE: Burma Bungle!
April 3, 1943
No night attacks.
Allies bomb the Magwe push, and sweep there to with Corsairs again. No defense other than AA. Dug in troops in the jungle ridge are tough to to hit.
Allied recon in this area is really poor, as during the replay troops in the open are not spotted, as is the troops to the north attempting to cut the supply road.
The Calcutta raid goes well...trading one Betty for some good hits including fuel explosions and fuel on fire. The Nells hit the AM Quail in another raid.
No night attacks.
Allies bomb the Magwe push, and sweep there to with Corsairs again. No defense other than AA. Dug in troops in the jungle ridge are tough to to hit.
Allied recon in this area is really poor, as during the replay troops in the open are not spotted, as is the troops to the north attempting to cut the supply road.
The Calcutta raid goes well...trading one Betty for some good hits including fuel explosions and fuel on fire. The Nells hit the AM Quail in another raid.
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RE: Burma Bungle!
China: Destroy 100+ combat squads. Chinese squads that is.
Shipping: Lose an xakl to a mine.
Burma:
25% of the way to cutting off the road. Surely he has troops hiding in the jungle trail to the north.
I am starting to plan fall back positions in Burma. I really don't like how exposed my troops are...if I can make it to the Monsoon or better yet cut his supply line.
Shipping: Lose an xakl to a mine.
Burma:
25% of the way to cutting off the road. Surely he has troops hiding in the jungle trail to the north.
I am starting to plan fall back positions in Burma. I really don't like how exposed my troops are...if I can make it to the Monsoon or better yet cut his supply line.
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RE: Burma Bungle!
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Big stuff? Don't have 8x30 R&D factories for the Ki-202 [:)]. I think R&Ding multiple generations is what kills Japan.
I understood everything else, many thanks, but not these two. Those 202 r&d factories are going to build the plane. I plan on building a lot of them. How is that wasted supply? I don't think you fully understand how deeply committed I am to the 202 for the end game. Sink or swim here.[X(]
Multiple generations: The factories upgrade for free to the next generation. How is that wasted?
R&D in general: If I could do it over again, I would pick one each armored fighter 2nd gen plane to r&d, Ki84a, and the rest would go to the final generation planes. Strike that, I would play pdu off.[:)]
RE: Burma Bungle!
The raid on Calcutta was nice, but also there was 130 aux planes there. I am coming to the conclusion, that on these deep strikes to go for everything at the base: port and airfield.
I am also rethinking the Patsy, too late for this game, but deep strikes seem to work very well. But I can use Emily in this role...
Would there be any point to fire bombing Calcutta or striking at Ledo oil? No victory points, but it would feel good. Vindictive and nasty. Unfortunately, he might trash Magwe oil.
I have 3.3 million oil. Gadzooks! [X(]
I am also rethinking the Patsy, too late for this game, but deep strikes seem to work very well. But I can use Emily in this role...
Would there be any point to fire bombing Calcutta or striking at Ledo oil? No victory points, but it would feel good. Vindictive and nasty. Unfortunately, he might trash Magwe oil.
I have 3.3 million oil. Gadzooks! [X(]
RE: Burma Bungle!
The Nick b model production facility is moved on to research the C model. I like the C, the cannon is more accurate than the B model, packs a hefty punch compared to the 20mm cannons on the A model. Nicks will now for me provide rear area bomber defense and move forward to attack targets of opportunity on the ground and at sea.
I expanded all vehicle factories by 1.
Sending even more men to Burma...KB is dark...working on troop and economic transfers. Nothing offensive planned for the day. Working on establishing a better deep recon of Allied bases...and I am thinking about hitting Madras with Emilies. I am going to use subs with floats to provide recon...
I am moving into China several fighter squadrons. They will splinter and start sweeping the capitol where there are still 50plus fighters to worry about.
I expanded all vehicle factories by 1.
Sending even more men to Burma...KB is dark...working on troop and economic transfers. Nothing offensive planned for the day. Working on establishing a better deep recon of Allied bases...and I am thinking about hitting Madras with Emilies. I am going to use subs with floats to provide recon...
I am moving into China several fighter squadrons. They will splinter and start sweeping the capitol where there are still 50plus fighters to worry about.
RE: Burma Bungle!
Probably my last post about the KAI Dinah.
I upgraded, or downgraded depending upon your view of the KAI Dinah, my last planned squadron. It will break down into thirds and provide night coverage at airfields and industry centers.
My attempt at sweeps with the plane failed. Granted I only tried it once. Long range escorts -- the Oscar and Zero do it cheaper. Strafing ships: no bombs or armor Nick & Oscar better.
But night CAP before there is night fighters. Bingo! Can't shoot down anything, but it can disrupt the attacks.
Almost all Dinah KAI losses have come from being bombed during the day, while the planes sat idle at the air fields. This is great, because the Allied bombers had to fly thru daytime fighters to hit the airfields because he couldn't close them during the night!
I upgraded, or downgraded depending upon your view of the KAI Dinah, my last planned squadron. It will break down into thirds and provide night coverage at airfields and industry centers.
My attempt at sweeps with the plane failed. Granted I only tried it once. Long range escorts -- the Oscar and Zero do it cheaper. Strafing ships: no bombs or armor Nick & Oscar better.
But night CAP before there is night fighters. Bingo! Can't shoot down anything, but it can disrupt the attacks.
Almost all Dinah KAI losses have come from being bombed during the day, while the planes sat idle at the air fields. This is great, because the Allied bombers had to fly thru daytime fighters to hit the airfields because he couldn't close them during the night!
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RE: Burma Bungle!
A few IJN long term builds:
I am building the handful of I400 series subs, the aircraft carrier submarines. I have searched, but I cannot find anyone mentioning these subs much.
Do they actually launch planes with Torpedoes? What is the supply of torpedoes on the ship?
They are a 33 point build, for a long, long time and as such are quite expensive, but they look like fun!
I am sorely tempted to accelerate the first one.
I am building the handful of I400 series subs, the aircraft carrier submarines. I have searched, but I cannot find anyone mentioning these subs much.
Do they actually launch planes with Torpedoes? What is the supply of torpedoes on the ship?
They are a 33 point build, for a long, long time and as such are quite expensive, but they look like fun!
I am sorely tempted to accelerate the first one.
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RE: Burma Bungle!
Late war carriers:
I simply cannot bring myself to cancelling these guys...if I can make it that far, they might get one strike in before being destroyed.
I simply cannot bring myself to cancelling these guys...if I can make it that far, they might get one strike in before being destroyed.
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RE: Burma Bungle!
ORIGINAL: Lowpe
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Big stuff? Don't have 8x30 R&D factories for the Ki-202 [:)]. I think R&Ding multiple generations is what kills Japan.
I understood everything else, many thanks, but not these two. Those 202 r&d factories are going to build the plane. I plan on building a lot of them. How is that wasted supply? I don't think you fully understand how deeply committed I am to the 202 for the end game. Sink or swim here.[X(]
Multiple generations: The factories upgrade for free to the next generation. How is that wasted?
R&D in general: If I could do it over again, I would pick one each armored fighter 2nd gen plane to r&d, Ki84a, and the rest would go to the final generation planes. Strike that, I would play pdu off.[:)]
RE: multiple generations - by generation I mean separate lines, not new versions of an existing plane. E.g., 1st Gen = Oscar/Zero, 2nd = Tojo/Jack/George, 3rd = Frank/Sam, etc. Those aren't hard categories or anything, but in general to me 1st generation is something that's bordering on obsolete at war's start, 2nd generation are the models that are in R&D at war's start and come out in '42-'43, and 3rd generation are the "wonder planes"... A 4th generation would be like Ki-201, -202, maybe even Ki-83. What I mean by generation is you finish R&Ding one line, but you don't need 180 planes/month plus the production of the previous model, so you swap some to the next generation of plane...and then they get damaged, and need repair.
I understand that you're committed to the -202, I just think it's not going to do all that well. Placing my chips early on that one [:)]. The Karyu is more expensive (*2), but I think it would do more than twice as well. Maybe I'll be wrong.
RE: Burma Bungle!
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I understand that you're committed to the -202, I just think it's not going to do all that well. Placing my chips early on that one [:)]. The Karyu is more expensive (*2), but I think it would do more than twice as well. Maybe I'll be wrong.
I understand now.
Well, you didn't like the Dinah KAI and I found a good use for them.[:)] But, you definitely weren't wrong either.
Actually, you are correct about the 201. In downfall it is an absolute beast, and probably should be a staple research for every Japan game you want to go the distant.
As in everything you need numbers, and the 202 is half as expensive and rams really well. Hopefully, being paired with Sam-J the 202 numbers will be telling. If it fails, it will be spectacular. I wonder what kind of Kamikaze it will make? No bombs, but speed to beat the band...
RE: Burma Bungle!
April 5th, 1943
No night attacks.
Continue sinking Allied submarines, this time in the PI.
Allies bomb Prome heavily, light damage, thanks a little to severe storms. Allies sweep Moulmein. I want him to keep doing this until I stage a nice CAP trap with Tojo IIc.
Allied Air Transports move back to Ledo, from Calcutta.
Dirt road defenders finally show up. Shucks. I will try and stalemate him to the monsoon, and hopefully thru the wet season, then I will most likely have to pull back. If not sooner.
No night attacks.
Continue sinking Allied submarines, this time in the PI.
Allies bomb Prome heavily, light damage, thanks a little to severe storms. Allies sweep Moulmein. I want him to keep doing this until I stage a nice CAP trap with Tojo IIc.
Allied Air Transports move back to Ledo, from Calcutta.
Dirt road defenders finally show up. Shucks. I will try and stalemate him to the monsoon, and hopefully thru the wet season, then I will most likely have to pull back. If not sooner.
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RE: Burma Bungle!
I continue to expand vehicle construction by 1 point per factory again.
Sweeps and LRCAP in China. Hopefully a nasty surprise for the Chinese Air Force.
Other than that, I am getting bombers in place and rested to hit Ledo and Calcutta again. No fighters there, they are all at Prome. Will also recon Madras and hit it too.
Continue to watch my factories repair in r&d. Slow going.
I actually drained Fusan of all resources, idling the light industry there. I still am not getting enough oil and fuel into Fusan to rely upon it for growing inventories in the HI. Not having Changsha slows transfers across China perhaps?
I put a tanker in Shanghai to suck oil for the HI, and it went from 4 oil to 6000 overnight...drawing from Hong Kong. Hong Kong is not really drawing much from Indochina. So will the Shanghai oil now flow to Fusan? Probably go back to Hong Kong.
For some odd reason, all the supply I dropped at Bangkok ended up back at Cam Ranh Bay, 70K. I need that to filter up the railroad from Bangkok, not there. Naval HQ probably pulling it.
Hokkaido has been sucked dry, moved 4 million resources in 120 days with but three escorts ships give or take, the rest unescorted in onesies and twosies. I lost 1-2 xaks I think to subs. I did have an additional 3-4 SC or PC patrolling off Ominato, but never much.
Some people feel this an exploit, moving resources across china, but he does have a good shot at my cargo ships, since the vast majority of them are unescorted around the HI. He needs to race in and out in one day, rather than patrol hither and thither keeping DL on his subs. What works well is to set a waypoint in the convoy lane, move in and out in one turn...or simply to flood an area overnight with several submarines and then get out of dodge. Plus mixing up the area of attacks works well too.
Plus he is doing well with his submarines in the PI, and tankers from DEI. He needs to change up his strategies a little and sometimes he seems to want to use them with the fleet too.
Supposedly, in a level 8 air force or higher one of the engineer units with aviation support with go mutant, but I can't get that to work. Is there a trick?
Sweeps and LRCAP in China. Hopefully a nasty surprise for the Chinese Air Force.
Other than that, I am getting bombers in place and rested to hit Ledo and Calcutta again. No fighters there, they are all at Prome. Will also recon Madras and hit it too.
Continue to watch my factories repair in r&d. Slow going.
I actually drained Fusan of all resources, idling the light industry there. I still am not getting enough oil and fuel into Fusan to rely upon it for growing inventories in the HI. Not having Changsha slows transfers across China perhaps?
I put a tanker in Shanghai to suck oil for the HI, and it went from 4 oil to 6000 overnight...drawing from Hong Kong. Hong Kong is not really drawing much from Indochina. So will the Shanghai oil now flow to Fusan? Probably go back to Hong Kong.
For some odd reason, all the supply I dropped at Bangkok ended up back at Cam Ranh Bay, 70K. I need that to filter up the railroad from Bangkok, not there. Naval HQ probably pulling it.
Hokkaido has been sucked dry, moved 4 million resources in 120 days with but three escorts ships give or take, the rest unescorted in onesies and twosies. I lost 1-2 xaks I think to subs. I did have an additional 3-4 SC or PC patrolling off Ominato, but never much.
Some people feel this an exploit, moving resources across china, but he does have a good shot at my cargo ships, since the vast majority of them are unescorted around the HI. He needs to race in and out in one day, rather than patrol hither and thither keeping DL on his subs. What works well is to set a waypoint in the convoy lane, move in and out in one turn...or simply to flood an area overnight with several submarines and then get out of dodge. Plus mixing up the area of attacks works well too.
Plus he is doing well with his submarines in the PI, and tankers from DEI. He needs to change up his strategies a little and sometimes he seems to want to use them with the fleet too.
Supposedly, in a level 8 air force or higher one of the engineer units with aviation support with go mutant, but I can't get that to work. Is there a trick?
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JocMeister
- Posts: 8258
- Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:03 am
- Location: Sweden
RE: Burma Bungle!
ORIGINAL: JocMeister
Any idea what that lone unit is?
Nope, I may bomb it when the troops are closer to entering the hex.
I am going to be moving another infantry division, one that is resting at Soerabaja, up to Burma, and I am also sending odds and ends there as well. I will be trying to form up the 2nd tank division, which is scattered all over creation, but really I have to face facts and recognize I am overmastered here in burma.
I hoped supply would be a bigger problem for him...maybe with the monsoon?
The Allies have sent lots of US forces, saved their original British/Burma/Commonwealth forces from destruction, and those that I did nail hard on Java is simply not enough to slow down the Allied juggernaut in this theater. At least there isn't many Aussie troops here...
Being on the jungle ridge dirt road is just a great way to lose those troops of mine. But Magwe is still pumping oil, 280 something a day, and I want it. So for now, more troops to Burma, build up a better defense in depth, and look for opportunities to hurt him in the air. I do have reserves in Mandalay, but never enough.
RE: Burma Bungle!
Just some quick math on Oil reserves. I have 3.4 million in the system and it is growing. If I can get all that back, that is over one full year of oil for the HI production.
I guess I am rapidly approaching the point where maybe the Magwe oil field is no longer as important, if I can siphon the oil in the system back.
Isn't that shortsighted thinking? What would an early loss of the Palembang oil do to me? So it becomes more of a question of how long can I protect the oil flows and the industry on the HI, and keep the oil flowing from the DEI and Burma to the HI.
Confused? Good, I am.
I guess I am rapidly approaching the point where maybe the Magwe oil field is no longer as important, if I can siphon the oil in the system back.
Isn't that shortsighted thinking? What would an early loss of the Palembang oil do to me? So it becomes more of a question of how long can I protect the oil flows and the industry on the HI, and keep the oil flowing from the DEI and Burma to the HI.
Confused? Good, I am.