Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - The air war in China- DBB, SLs, PDU OFF

[GreyJoy]

Made some calculations....

if I move 7x30 KI-43 IIb factories along the Oscar line I should be able to get the KI-43 IIIa and the IV for May 1943. Not bad indeed. Once there I may be able (depending on the supplies levels) to move part of those factories (say 4 of them) to the SAM line or the KI-84b (at the moment, only 1 factory is RnDing the "b" version of the KI-84...which isn't good cause many groups will upgrade to the "r" line passing through the "b" one)

[MrKane]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Made some calculations....

if I move 7x30 KI-43 IIb factories along the Oscar line I should be able to get the KI-43 IIIa and the IV for May 1943. Not bad indeed. Once there I may be able (depending on the supplies levels) to move part of those factories (say 4 of them) to the SAM line or the KI-84b (at the moment, only 1 factory is RnDing the "b" version of the KI-84...which isn't good cause many groups will upgrade to the "r" line passing through the "b" one)

I have 7x30 Ki-43 just to unlock patch for Frank. Several Sentais require Ki-43-IIIa and Ki-43-IV first to get Ki-84a.

[GreyJoy]

Yup...very true tom.

I just don't feel to be finding the right "balance" in my RnD efforts... don't know why but I don't feel really confortable with the present situation of my A/C production and research...

here's the complete list

1x30 KI-43 IIa
1x110 KI-43 IIb
7x30 KI-43 IIb
1x30 A6M2
1x30+1x70 A6M3
7x30 A6M3a
1x90 KI-44a
1x80 KI-45a

(RnD)
4x30 A6M5
4x30 A6M2 sen Baku
3x30 A6M8
4x30 KI-44b
3x30 KI-61 Ia
3x30 KI-45c
1x30 KI-61 Ic (not repaired)
6x30 KI-81 a (not repaired)
3x30 A7M2 (not repaired)
3x30 N1K1 (not repaired)
2x30 J2M2 (not repaired)
3x30 KI-94 (not repaired)
1x30 Shiden (not repaired)


as u may see, the main investment is in the A6M and Ki-43 lines
The idea is to stockpile enough A6M3a immediately, then move 6 out of 7 factories to the A6M5b (while the A6M5 enters into production).
If I'm not mistaken, by june 1943 the "zero" production line should look like that:

1x30 A6M2 (wants to keep a factory going on here cause even in 1945 keep on arriving sentais that are more-or less bound to this old frame
1x70 A6M3 (will produce it for some more months, then i'll move over to the A6M5)
1x50+1x70(the former A6M3 factory)+ 2x50 (enlarged from 30 to 50)
1x30 A6M5b
2x50 A6M5c
1x150+4x50 A6M8

This will free up 8 RnD factories that could be converted to something else (SAM, Frank, KI-83, KI-94??)

At the same time this set-up should give me enough flexibility to be able to correct the mistakes that for sure i'll do with the exact calculations of what kind of A/c is needed for each sentai

The main point will obviously be the supply expenditure. I will see what will be able to do but I will try not to break my economy in exaggerating on the RnD...

[Barb]

Ki-43 IV should be a pretty decent plane - armor and 2x20mm CL cannons. Not great durability, but with SR=1 and quite good climb rate they should be allied PITA - both for fighters and bombers.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Ki-43 IV should be a pretty decent plane - armor and 2x20mm CL cannons. Not great durability, but with SR=1 and quite good climb rate they should be allied PITA - both for fighters and bombers.

Is a decent plane, for sure. The real weak point is the durability. With ONLY 23, it becomes nearly useless against 4Es because it cannot even get close to them due to the damage it sustains from the defensive fire.
However with a speed of 364 mhp is probably as good as the A6M8. Lower durability (23 vs 27) but better armament (2x20mm CL against 2x20mm F...also the army 20mm are way better than the navy 20mm).

I have faced the A6M8s extensively against MrKane (who used them a lot since 1943) and can say that it is a very good plane (for a "zero" line standards, obviously).
If the Ki-43 IV is just as good as the A6M8, I will be very happy

Unfortunately, few sentais will be using this frame. Many more will be stuck with the KI-43 IIIa, which is just as good/bad as the IIb. But i'll take them!

[MrKane]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Barb

Ki-43 IV should be a pretty decent plane - armor and 2x20mm CL cannons. Not great durability, but with SR=1 and quite good climb rate they should be allied PITA - both for fighters and bombers.

Is a decent plane, for sure. The real weak point is the durability. With ONLY 23, it becomes nearly useless against 4Es because it cannot even get close to them due to the damage it sustains from the defensive fire.
However with a speed of 364 mhp is probably as good as the A6M8. Lower durability (23 vs 27) but better armament (2x20mm CL against 2x20mm F...also the army 20mm are way better than the navy 20mm).

I have faced the A6M8s extensively against MrKane (who used them a lot since 1943) and can say that it is a very good plane (for a "zero" line standards, obviously).
If the Ki-43 IV is just as good as the A6M8, I will be very happy

Unfortunately, few sentais will be using this frame. Many more will be stuck with the KI-43 IIIa, which is just as good/bad as the IIb. But i'll take them!

A6M8 was cheap 2nd line navy fighter for me, like Ki-44-IIc in army line. Flying at low altitude with decent durability and armor it could take first "super dive" of allied sweeps on back and let K-84 and N1K2-J gain altitude advantage to get revenge. Both were good on escort duty either. I did not want K-43-IV mostly due his high cruise speed. This factor eliminate all late Ki-43 for escort duty for TB&DB bombers.

[crsutton]

Speed is the critical factor with fighters. The Oscar line just never catches up with any Allied fighters.

[MrKane]

Yes it is. But Ki-43 can compensate luck of high max speed with agility. What is rare for Japan fighter near end of war.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: MrKane

Yes it is. But Ki-43 can compensate luck of high max speed with agility. What is rare for Japan fighter near end of war.

I find maneuver to be the least helpful trait in game terms. I would rate it as follows.

Speed
guns
durability/armor
maneuver/rate of climb.

Guns and durability are so close that they can flip in order but speed is king by far. Still, the late Oscar is not a bad choice given what the Japanese economy has to work with.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Speed is the critical factor with fighters. The Oscar line just never catches up with any Allied fighters.

Not that with PDU OFF I can chose.
The only choice Jap player can make is where to invest in order to get it before the normal arrival date.
The Oscar line is the cheapest one, so a good choice imho.
Having some 4/5 Sentais of Oscar IV operating in mid 1943 can be a good reason to invest the needed supplies for RnDing that production line.
The alternative is to spread the RnD effort more on other better planes, but you always have to consider how fast you can get them and how many sentais are going to use them.
Just one example: of the existing sentais, none upgrades to the J2M line.
The first one arrives in sept 1943 and the second one in march 1944. So, obviously, in PDU OFF environement, the J2M line isn't a good mid-war investement

[leehunt27@bloomberg.net]

Does the speed of your fighters help at all against Allied 4E bombers? I've been looking mainly for high gun value planes. Does the game model slashing attacks etc with speed?

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: leehunt27@bloomberg.net

Does the speed of your fighters help at all against Allied 4E bombers? I've been looking mainly for high gun value planes. Does the game model slashing attacks etc with speed?

Yes, the faster they go, the more passages they are able to make on the enemy bomber formations...

So a KI-45 is just a mediocre plane against B29s, but good enough against B17s.

[leehunt27@bloomberg.net]

cool thank you. I am sure with PDU off its not easy managing the air force!

[GreyJoy]

After two weeks of stop, Erik gets back to me as a married man[:D]. Congratulations to him and to his awesome wife, Rachel, that I had the privilege to meet and to dine with (with Erik present, obviously[:D])!!!
So today we should be able to get this match back on track and running

Where were we again...?


Yes, it's the 4th of August 1942 and Japan's zenith has already passed. The allies have taken back most of the conquered India and now are pushing fast there and along the Marshall islands.
Soon they'll be landing at Tarawa, Makin and Ocean Is. (all these places are heavily reconned).
Japan is trying to prepare the long term perimeter as fast as possible.
For the first of Jan 1943

From East to West

Paramushiro, Marcus, Wake, Maloep, Nauru Is., Kusiae (and Ponape), Shortland, Rabaul, Port Moresby, Horn Is., Mereuake, Darwin (Daily waters), Port Hedland (Exmouth), Cocos, Sebang, Port Blair, Diego Garcia, Attu, Ceylon, Madras, Calcutta, Ranchi, Patna (the so-called "Assam Line").

I repeat that my idea is to force the allies to attack on the CentPac vector. Even the Sopac could be good if they take the NG route.

Let's see what happens...

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
I repeat that my idea is to force the allies to attack on the CentPac vector. Even the Sopac could be good if they take the NG route.

What's the rational for this? Frankly I think the Marshalls are a pretty decent place to fight for the Allies in 1943 as long as they have their CVs. Lots of atolls that can be built up to decent sizes - but not by Japan. Once the USAAF starts flying 4E there it's going to be hard to stop that juggernaut.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
I repeat that my idea is to force the allies to attack on the CentPac vector. Even the Sopac could be good if they take the NG route.

What's the rational for this? Frankly I think the Marshalls are a pretty decent place to fight for the Allies in 1943 as long as they have their CVs. Lots of atolls that can be built up to decent sizes - but not by Japan. Once the USAAF starts flying 4E there it's going to be hard to stop that juggernaut.

Atolls with decent size? I don't see them. Most of them cannot be built more than AF 4 and have a max SL of 6,000 men. To mount an offensive from there it's really really hard.
I know everybody consider the Marshall/Gilberts a good place for the allies to fight from. But I really don't see it in this way.
What can you bomb with 4Es from the Marshalls? Ponape maybe... but you can't hope to base 200 4Es in the Marshalls... simply no room for them.

However if I can choose I prefer the allies to take the shortest possible route for Japan...the Pacific one... lots of Atoll landings...lots of risks...and a very complex logistic

[rook749]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Atolls with decent size? I don't see them. Most of them cannot be built more than AF 4 and have a max SL of 6,000 men. To mount an offensive from there it's really really hard.
I know everybody consider the Marshall/Gilberts a good place for the allies to fight from. But I really don't see it in this way.
What can you bomb with 4Es from the Marshalls? Ponape maybe... but you can't hope to base 200 4Es in the Marshalls... simply no room for them.

However if I can choose I prefer the allies to take the shortest possible route for Japan...the Pacific one... lots of Atoll landings...lots of risks...and a very complex logistic

I would agree with your fighting options from the Marshall Islands is rather limited, but once the Allies have the Gilbert Islands there are too many airfields that build to level 5 in the Gilbert Islands to hold Marshall Islands for long.

The key airfields in the Marshall Islands are Ponape, Kusaie Island and Ailinglaplap all of which can be built to Level 5. Kusaie Island and Ailinglaplap are withing too many Level 5 airfields from the Gilbert Islands to hold for long. Once the Allies have Ponape and Kusaie you can reduce Truk to nothing then bypass it or take it.

I only care about those three Island in the Marshall Islands, I will have to take more to secure my rear and provide some medium range bomber bases but all I need is those three Island to suppress Turk and open a line of advance between the Solomon/Bismark areas and the Marshall Islands.

If you fear atolls than you are in trouble but atolls are not that bad to take. You need BBs and/or air support, the correct lift, 100% preparation, HQ support and lots of supply.

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Atolls with decent size? I don't see them. Most of them cannot be built more than AF 4 and have a max SL of 6,000 men. To mount an offensive from there it's really really hard.
I know everybody consider the Marshall/Gilberts a good place for the allies to fight from. But I really don't see it in this way.
What can you bomb with 4Es from the Marshalls? Ponape maybe... but you can't hope to base 200 4Es in the Marshalls... simply no room for them.

However if I can choose I prefer the allies to take the shortest possible route for Japan...the Pacific one... lots of Atoll landings...lots of risks...and a very complex logistic

As rook says most of the Gilberts can be built up nicely as well as a few of the Marshall Islands. The Gilberts especially have larger stacking limits and I believe there are a couple of 10k stacking islands in the Marshalls. And the Allies can slowly creep forward under LBA, fast transports, etc, to really reduce the risk here. It's slow but there's not much the Japanese can do to counter except committing the KB.

That being said, a lot of Allied players really muff operations here because they lack the patience to sit through the base building. JocMeister just did that against MrKane. They go right after Japanese bases like under CV/CVE cover w/o much LBA then get burned in the big battle before they are really ready. I've done that before as well which is why I know the CentPac can be a huge trap for the Allies.

Long story short, as long as the KB can threaten the CentPac you will probably be OK. But be mindful of a large Allied buildup. Certainly if the KB is off on the other side of the ocean and the Allies have a lot of LBA here then it could become a problem very quickly.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
I repeat that my idea is to force the allies to attack on the CentPac vector. Even the Sopac could be good if they take the NG route.

What's the rational for this? Frankly I think the Marshalls are a pretty decent place to fight for the Allies in 1943 as long as they have their CVs. Lots of atolls that can be built up to decent sizes - but not by Japan. Once the USAAF starts flying 4E there it's going to be hard to stop that juggernaut.

Atolls with decent size? I don't see them. Most of them cannot be built more than AF 4 and have a max SL of 6,000 men. To mount an offensive from there it's really really hard.
I know everybody consider the Marshall/Gilberts a good place for the allies to fight from. But I really don't see it in this way.
What can you bomb with 4Es from the Marshalls? Ponape maybe... but you can't hope to base 200 4Es in the Marshalls... simply no room for them.

However if I can choose I prefer the allies to take the shortest possible route for Japan...the Pacific one... lots of Atoll landings...lots of risks...and a very complex logistic

GJ is right the best avenues of advance for the Allies is via paths that offer level 9 airfields. And there are plenty. Central Pacific just does not offer the air bases. There are much better avenues of approach.

[GreyJoy]

Aug 4, 1942

Not much happened.
P-38Es show up again in China. This time over Chikkiang. Just 3 of them.Luckly the A6M3s i sent there arrive before the bombers and down all 3 of them.
We are still pushing south of Chikkiang. A bloody hex. Hope to be able to smash those damned 4 chinese corps. Another attempt is planned for tomorrow.

In SOPAC, fast transports deliver the 148th US IND Rgt at Nadi, where a small SNLF unit of mine is defending... not much hope to hold.

Almost ready to buy a division from Manchuria. Let's see where to send it (India or SOPAC?).

In a general observation, i don't feel very confortable with the perimeter so extended. Too many weak spots now in my defences... i think i need to start asap a clever retreat to safer positions (especially in Western Oz)