Revisiting maneuverability and speed

[Dili]

Does aircraft speed variation with altitude is accounted in maneuverability values?

It seems to be the only way to account for it must be done tweaking maneuverability except in the altitude band that has the maximum speed.

[Big B]

When AE was being developed I was initially on the Air Team. When the Mvr ratings were developed with Altitude bands, one criteria of diminishing Mvr rating was accounted for by peak engine Horsepower at Critical Altitude. So when an aircraft operates above its critical altitude - the maneuver rating decreases. Unfortunately speed was never addressed by altitude band.

But the loss of speed at altitude is reflected in the maneuver rating decreasing.

B

[Dili]

Thanks. Yes i am more concerned about speed loss in low altitude. I am not a aware of a fighter in the game that penalised by that.

Problem is getting data for Japanese fighters and their sea level speeds.

[Big B]

There is a very real loss of speed at low altitudes/sea level for all ww2 era supercharged piston-engine aircraft which were optimized for high altitude performance,.... easily as much as 10% or more of top speed. (this is not true for jet engined aircraft - which were always fastest at sea level).

This is not at all reflected in the game.

(shameless plug - I did account for this in B-Mod, where there is a maneuver penalty for high altitude aircraft operating at low altitude...just as low altitude aircraft suffer a penalty at higher altitudes).

B

ORIGINAL: Dili

Thanks. Yes i am more concerned about speed loss in low altitude. I am not a aware of a fighter in the game that penalised by that.

Problem is getting data for Japanese fighters and their sea level speeds.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: Big B
This is not at all reflected in the game.

(shameless plug - I did account for this in B-Mod, where there is a maneuver penalty for high altitude aircraft operating at low altitude...just as low altitude aircraft suffer a penalty at higher altitudes).

B

Weeell Brian, it is, kinda sorta. It's in the algorithmic abstraction. A few simple examples should point it out. The A6M was only maneuverable at low altitudes/moderate speeds. The 'Bolt' sucked at maneuver at any altitude, any speed, but like any airplane, it was best at wiggling at moderate altitude, moderate speed. Speed has nothing whatever to do with maneuver. In fact, the faster you go, the harder it is to turn; simple aerodynamic physics. And with props, the higher you get, the less you get to bite on, and the more you are like a snowboarder begging for a turn off Dave's Run at Mammoth.

Your shameless plug is well taken. Babes has done similar things. Hootz gazotties [:D]

Ciao JWE

[Big B]

True enough as speed versus turning, but maneuver is more than a tight turn... I view at it as an abstract of overall performance. [:)]

[Dili]

but maneuver is more than a tight turn... I view at it as an abstract of overall performance.

Yes, since the game has only the "maneuverability" to account for performance differences relating to altitude, then necessarily the tweaking can only be done there.

A radical proposal could be getting rid of speed and maneuverability concepts in their purity. Speed will be a compound value performance including for example diving speed capability and all performance that does not change with altitude . While maneuverability would be a factor related to altitude performance variation. This could obviously be a good idea or a disaster depending on code.

Then an mvr(altitude) coding connection to range, ah a man can dream

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: Dili
Yes, since the game has only the "maneuverability" to account for performance differences relating to altitude, then necessarily the tweaking can only be done there.

And since you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, you get a pass. But please take your nonsense to some other little All Things Great and Naziful place and stop wasting our time.

[ed] Sorry Brian, but I just can't stand the little Internet Uber Nazi trolls. Invested too much time in this for some 9 year old pretense.

[Big B]

John, don't get grumpy [:D]

[Symon]

Oh, well. Geezerhood is a state of mind after all. [:D][:D]

[Dili]

Nazi? Freudian slip Symon?


Speed:
Eventual components: Speed, Dive speed , Instantaneous mvr - bonus for roll rate? Sustained mvr.


Mvr:
Altitude affects:
Speed, Mvr, Climb, Range. Power(and superchargers)


So
Speed might get this factors: Speed, Dive speed, Mvr's . Obviously the end value must end up in the typical game speed values from slow aircraft to jets speeds. Just that value represents more than just speed.
Maneuverability instead represents a factor that is supposed to change with altitude, so warrants an analysis of climbing vs altitude, speed vs altitude, range vs altitude. The final value also obviously must end within game current values.

Eventual End result: The Maneuverability* value of optimal altitude band will tend to have a bigger difference to other altitude bands.
*that as said now is just an altitude performance factor.

Eventual Game Consequences:
The tendency to stick to optimal altitude will be stronger. Sweeps and attack/bombing will get a boost over CAP in case dissimilar altitude band performance. More difficulty for a plane to dominate.
Bombing altitude choice will have to take more care of escorting aircraft altitude needs. Air combat altitude advantage might be attenuated if it implies moving from the optimal altitude band to another.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: Dili
So ...

Yeah, so what. You obviously know nothing about how the game works, and clearly don't care.

You don't play this game, you know nothing about it. All you talk about is your particular view of irl, which is utterly irrelevant to the algorithm. All it does is annoy people and make them push the green button. Perhaps you have noticed that nobody responds to most of your posts?

The people who developed the Air statistics know more about aerodynamics than you will ever hope to. Your attempts at challenging the algorithm are not so much irrelevant as they are uninformed and disrespectful.

If you want to play airplane boy, please go to one of the serious air forums. I'm sure they will respond to your views in an appropriate manner.

This game forum is not for you. Your points are irrelevant. Soon as you figure that out, better off you will be. Ciao.

[ed] very sorry Bill and Brian, but every now and then you gots to do some pest control. I hope I wasn't too gnarly. Tried to be squared away and use small words [:D]

[Dili]

You seem incapable of reading.

Code: Select all

This could obviously be a good idea or a disaster depending on code.