Limit Theory

[miklos]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
I had a chat with a friend of mine that does muck about with cross-platform projects. My position is now one of glee. Much like the sense of excitement one gets in watching a slow-motion video of a traffic accident. I await with bated breath, Josh's final release!

No problems with complexity.
No problems with project size.
No problems with multiple platforms.

It's all clear sailing for LT to hit the store shelves. I think any developer can tell you what sort of horror stories Josh's sort of statements has preceded.

Anyone want to place bets on how this is going to turn out?

How's the humble pie tasting Kayoz? Or are you hoping people forget about this thread where you displayed a complete lack of social skills, general development knowledge and practical experience while calling people out for lack of information, you yourself won't share?

If you've read RPS or followed his daily development update and the monthly video progress you'd see that he has created something you couldn't do if you got 10 years to do it. So it's time you apologize but who are we kidding, you are the type of forum warrior who can't admit when he is wrong.

Status so far:
Kayoz: -1 points
JoshParnell: 9001 points

[JoshParnell]

Thanks for the support miklos

However I think this resurrection is a tad premature. The time has not yet come, as LT is not yet released. The updates and articles can negate much of Kayoz' negative speculation, but the ultimate proof - the fulfillment of that which I promised in the beginning - has yet to surface.

In time this story will come to a close in exactly the manner which I promised (albeit a year later than I would have liked). But until then we must wait patiently and gather our stash of anti-skeptic munitions

PS ~ I enjoyed the subtle reference to DBZ

[aaatoysandmore]

I'd rather see Freelancer II myself. Best space sim ever made.

[danlongman]

I have been watching since my Kickstarter binge. If people weren't willing to push the limits
conceptually we would have no "good old days" to compare to. I am still playing at Freelancer
but I don't twitch as good as I used to. Different medication.

[aaatoysandmore]

I always thought Freelancer had the easiest control system of them all. Only thing bad about Freelancer is it had no dynamic trading world.....where things went up and down in price as supply and demand changed.

[JoshParnell]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

I'd rather see Freelancer II myself. Best space sim ever made.

...

I always thought Freelancer had the easiest control system of them all. Only thing bad about Freelancer is it had no dynamic trading world.....where things went up and down in price as supply and demand changed.

'Freelancer II' is more or less my goal for LT [:)] (with a bit of EVE thrown into the mix). FL is tied with Morrowind for my favorite game of all time [:D]

I completely second the sentiment that the game was uniquely 'playable' for a space sim - the controls were tremendously smooth and the game mechanics were fun but simple enough to be totally understandable. For me that's what makes it so easy to just pick back up and play when I need a good hit of space game euphoria. That playability, above all else, is something that I'm trying to bring to LT [:)]

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: miklos

How's the humble pie tasting Kayoz? Or are you hoping people forget about this thread where you displayed a complete lack of social skills, general development knowledge and practical experience while calling people out for lack of information, you yourself won't share?

There's a word in English. "Sarcasm". Look it up. You clearly didn't understand my post.

I've read his (Josh's) post and watched some of his ennui inspiring videos on his site. There isn't any "game" forming. It's overdue, nowhere near completion and his design flaws are forcing him to make changes to core functionality quite recently.

Release it, see how the reviewers react, and then we can discuss it. I mean, that's the promise Josh made - to release the game feature-complete. A promise made to all his Kickstarter backers which he's FAILED TO KEEP.

[JoshParnell]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
There's a word in English. "Sarcasm". Look it up. You clearly didn't understand my post.

I've read his (Josh's) post and watched some of his ennui inspiring videos on his site. There isn't any "game" forming. It's overdue, nowhere near completion and his design flaws are forcing him to make changes to core functionality quite recently.

Release it, see how the reviewers react, and then we can discuss it. I mean, that's the promise Josh made - to release the game feature-complete. A promise made to all his Kickstarter backers which he's FAILED TO KEEP.

Unsurprising [8|]

If nothing else, I admire your unfailing confidence. Were it to be applied in a direction not entirely orthogonal to productivity - to encouraging the flow of life rather than impeding it - it could be a powerful ally [:)]

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
Unsurprising [8|]

If nothing else, I admire your unfailing confidence. Were it to be applied in a direction not entirely orthogonal to productivity - to encouraging the flow of life rather than impeding it - it could be a powerful ally [:)]

I'm all for productivity. Failing to meet your ship date by a year (current estimate - which is rather questionable considering your past ability to meet your own targets), the real question is do you understand the meaning of productivity?


LT is all bun and no beef.

[JoshParnell]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

I'm all for productivity. Failing to meet your ship date by a year (current estimate - which is rather questionable considering your past ability to meet your own targets), the real question is do you understand the meaning of productivity?

LT is all bun and no beef.

Perhaps not, if you mean to imply that meeting a ship date is the only metric for productivity. It's true, under that definition I've utterly and unequivocally failed to be productive. If this is the one true way of productivity, then clearly I've little grasp on it.

I leave it to others to have a look at the current state of the graphics, UI, procedural content generators, and (most recently) the real-time scripting engine to decide whether I've managed to register a blip on their own personal productivity scanner [:)]

Personally, being a slightly-over-the-edge bread enthusiast, I'd take more bun any day (and twice on Sunday). But that's beside the point -- the boys in the kitchen tell me the meat is almost ready! [X(]

[Lucian]

While I wouldn't say that I'm in total agreement with Kayoz, I've certainly cooled off on Limit Theory over the last year or so. Josh's use of Starlanes / Spacelanes has really squashed any excitement I might have had about this project. Nothing kills immersion in a space game more than Roads-In-Space. That and some other questionable design decisions have altered my attitude from "Oh Boy!" to "Meh".

So while I'm still reasonably confident that he will eventually release a functional game, I'm equally confident that I wont be buying.

[JoshParnell]

ORIGINAL: Lucian

While I wouldn't say that I'm in total agreement with Kayoz, I've certainly cooled off on Limit Theory over the last year or so. Josh's use of Starlanes / Spacelanes has really squashed any excitement I might have had about this project. Nothing kills immersion in a space game more than Roads-In-Space. That and some other questionable design decisions have altered my attitude from "Oh Boy!" to "Meh".

So while I'm still reasonably confident that he will eventually release a functional game, I'm equally confident that I wont be buying.

Well, all I would ask is to keep an open mind about it [:)]

I won't bother trying to dissuade you on the lanes issue, because I know how people feel about that kind of thing -- almost a bit of a religious issue to true space game fans. Personally I have a lot of reasons why it's critical to my own space sim experience to have lanes and 'structural' travel. I feel as strongly about it as you do about (I presume) point-to-point jump travel [:D]

However, the past two months' work introduced a level of moddability that previously wasn't planned for LT 1.0. The result is that I can now guarantee that someone who feels as you do can and will make a point-to-point jump travel mod for LT. Really, I guarantee -- because if they don't, I will (after 1.0). But I'm certain that someone will do it, since I know you're not at all the only one who feels this way. The scripting engine makes that kind of thing 100% within the realm of what LT mods will be able to do!

So just keep an eye on the project and keep in mind that, if you don't like all of my design decisions, most if not all of them will be addressed by community-built mods. I'm curious what other decisions you feel would prevent you from enjoying the game? But as I said, please know that the travel system is one of those decisions that is very much within the ability of mods to 'fix' [:)]

[Lucian]

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
Well, all I would ask is to keep an open mind about it [:)]

I won't bother trying to dissuade you on the lanes issue, because I know how people feel about that kind of thing -- almost a bit of a religious issue to true space game fans. Personally I have a lot of reasons why it's critical to my own space sim experience to have lanes and 'structural' travel. I feel as strongly about it as you do about (I presume) point-to-point jump travel [:D]

I will keep an open mind, but I can pretty much assure you that I wont like it. As you probably guessed, I'm firmly in the If-I-Want-Roads-I'll-Play-Civ camp. A space game should feel like you are in space. I understand your reasoning though and realize that not all games will be suited to my particular taste. C'est la vie.

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
The result is that I can now guarantee that someone who feels as you do can and will make a point-to-point jump travel mod for LT.

That's very good news, with that in mind I think I'll wait and see if anyone implements Free-Jump or Star Trek - style continuous FTL before deciding. I'm actually quite surprised that such a seemingly large change can be handled by scripting. Will the AI be able to cope? Free Orion is another game that I have given up on because of mandatory starlanes. My understanding with FO is that even if you managed to mod the lanes out you would most certainly end up lobotomizing the AI in the process.

I didn't specify any other quibbles because they were not annoying or immersion breaking enough to prevent me from buying, I guess my biggest secondary issues though would be....

1/ 3rd person perspective: Immersion-wise I would much prefer a cockpit and 1st person perspective.

2/ Seamless planet landings: Elite Frontier had this and its amazing to me that even with 100x the speed and memory, no-one has since been able to even come close to matching it (although it looks like Elite 4 will ). I do realize that it would be quite coding intensive though which is almost certainly why you haven't chosen to implement it.

3/ Realism: My tastes fall into the Newtonian realism of the earlier elite games and Independence War, both in terms of the size of the solar system and the way spacecraft handle. What I have seen of LT so far is a little too arcadey.

As I said though, none of these are deal breakers and I do like many of your design decisions, particularly the extensive use of procedural generation to supply content. Whether I end up being a customer or not I wish you all the best with the game, you've certainly earned it with the amount of work you've put in.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell

Perhaps not, if you mean to imply that meeting a ship date is the only metric for productivity. It's true, under that definition I've utterly and unequivocally failed to be productive. If this is the one true way of productivity, then clearly I've little grasp on it.

Your choice of word. If you want to give a pithy response to your own chosen word, then so be it. "Productivity" has a definition in the dictionary. Look it up. Development goals and meeting the aforementioned is a reasonable and quantifiable measure. Nuff said.

Your choice of words.
Your doubled (at least) dev time estimate.
Your mounting complexity of design issues which you should have addressed before writing a single line of code.
Your fundamental changes to design (eg: persistence of asteroid fields) at a rather late state in development.
Your problem.

Ship it and we'll see. But that's some vague and undetermined point in the future, isn't it?

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
I leave it to others to have a look at the current state of the graphics, UI, procedural content generators, and (most recently) the real-time scripting engine to decide whether I've managed to register a blip on their own personal productivity scanner [:)]

I look to testing, balance, economic engine, procedurally generated characters and interactions, etc, etc - to determine LT's state.

But let's not talk vague notions here - the fleet ownership, as a specific example, hasn't been touched on, much less the AI behind it - finite, fuzzy and probably swarm behaviour, which is a rather meaty task in itself. But of course, that's a doddle and you'll get it working, tested and debugged by.. when is it again? Oh, and let's not fail to mention the dynamic economy - you'll have that written in no time, right?

You've written a chunk of the graphics engine. Pat on the back for you. But any game developer will tell you that the graphics is the EASY part. And no more so than with sandbox games. Skyrim (a sandbox game) developers didn't sweat blood and tears on making pretty blood sprays or shiny baubles.

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
Personally, being a slightly-over-the-edge bread enthusiast, I'd take more bun any day (and twice on Sunday). But that's beside the point -- the boys in the kitchen tell me the meat is almost ready! [X(]

Almost ready? So what's your current release schedule? I hate to bring this up, but your initial estimate was Q1 2014 - so any reader should take your past history in meeting your own goals into account.

Caveat emptor. But then again, you've already got (at least) $187,865....

[zakblood]

wish i could move this topic closer to the motohome, as it's cold outside and the heat in here could warm up me van

[:D]

looks nice all i can say, like elite i'll look forward to it whenever it arrives

[Kayoz]

No flaming from me. I believe I've asked fair questions and raised relevant points where he's failed to keep his promises.

Oh, if you think it looks like Elite - then I've got an old copy of Daikatana kicking around somewhere. The screenshots and videos released by Romero made it look pretty good. You buying?

But on that point, Elite looks WAY WAY WAY better than anything Josh has shown. That's the difference between a university drop-out hack and professionals.

[undercovergeek]

i searched youtube for a game youre releasing Kayoz

could

not

see

one

odd that

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

i searched youtube for a game youre releasing Kayoz

could

not

see

one

odd that

How incredibly brilliant of you. You don't know what search parameters, so you conclude that your YouTube search - found nothing, is surprising.

Sharpest knife in the drawer, ain't ya? Are you equally shocked when you look in the mirror and see yourself?

Nothing I've said has been inconsistent with any number of other posts from game developers. By your argument, a doctor who says that sucking on the tailpipe of a car is good for you can only be countered by another doctor.

Just an unending font of wisdom, you are.

[undercovergeek]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

i searched youtube for a game youre releasing Kayoz

could

not

see

one

odd that

How incredibly brilliant of you. You don't know what search parameters, so you conclude that your YouTube search - found nothing, is surprising.

Sharpest knife in the drawer, ain't ya? Are you equally shocked when you look in the mirror and see yourself?

Nothing I've said has been inconsistent with any number of other posts from game developers. By your argument, a doctor who says that sucking on the tailpipe of a car is good for you can only be countered by another doctor.

Just an unending font of wisdom, you are.

my first choice was 'loud mouthed obnoxious c*nt' - i figured that would encompass all your finest qualities

please, send me the link to your game

you have 2 choices - produce it and let the community see your flawless effort

or dont - and STFU

Your doctor analogy is piss poor like the rest of your writing but if I have to come down to your level of comprehension then fine..... yes only educated, experienced, learned men get to counter each other's arguments in the field of their expertise... listen to a doctor or listen to a bitter hack with an axe to grind.... it's not hard, it is for you, but not the rest of us

i dont know what your problem with the developer is other than envy

guys making a game at 20 and is doing ok, were you not quite so successful with your big venture?

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
my first choice was 'loud mouthed obnoxious c*nt'

I assume that's in response to my mirror question. I can't say I'm surprised.

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
please, send me the link to your game

I don't have to be a cop to see that Michael Brown's death was a case of criminal abuse of authority - but according to you, only a cop can answer that question. I suggest you go to the black dominated neighbourhoods and voice your opinion.

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
yes only educated, experienced, learned men get to counter each other's arguments in the field of their expertise...

So, only a game developer can say that Daikatana is crap? You do realize that 99.999% of the game critics out there fail to meet your criteria... and shockingly enough, they're on my side of the expertise argument. Keep spouting profanities. You're sure to win this argument with foul language.

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
i dont know what your problem with the developer is other than envy

What he's done so far is crap - from design to code, and unimpressive. He's failed to meet a single deadline that HE SET HIMSELF. I don't think I've been opaque at all with respect to my problems.

Oh, all funded with $186k of other people's money. Don't forget that. When he abandons the project, I wonder how many will sue him for fraud? Probably not many. Pretty small change in the scheme of things.

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
guys making a game at 20 and is doing ok

For a given value of "ok".

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
were you not quite so successful with your big venture?

Drop the ad hominem attacks. Your externalization of your own self-loathing and sexual confusion isn't helping your argument. I'm not interested in you. I don't want to tell you anything about me, thanks. I'm sure you can find a public toilet frequented by people who will be happy to service your needs.