Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: DanSez

I disagree with the "more historical" for PDU OFF argument as it is focused on only one end of the equation - force structure and not on the underlying "ahistorical" problem of force projection.
ok... I've reworded this 6 times now.

Maybe this needs its own thread --- has the virtues of PDU ON/OFF been hashed out before?

Q-Ball, sorry for the interruption. Good luck with your game.

It usually comes down to personal preference. For me the guiding factor is, "PBEM or AI opponents?" If the former, the Japanese player needs all the help he can get and thus PDU-on is perfectly acceptable. If the latter, the human player already has significant advantages and thus PDU-off helps level the playing field.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Question, with PDU on, are you allowed to downgrade to an earlier model or are you stuck?

With PDU=ON you are able to do what you want.

Sorry, that is correct, PDU ON enables DOWNGRADES. I though he was asking about PDU-OFF, which does NOT.

Sorry, my mistake, I meant PDU off.

[geofflambert]

I'm in the camp of I don't want to be forced to make any mistakes that were made historically after 12/8/42. On the other hand I don't want to be able to do anything that was simply impossible. An exception is any house rules about restricted units not marching out of their territories, I'm good with that.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I'm actually in a game as Japan with PDU Off. It is about April '44 and I will tell you I will never play a game with PDU Off as Japan again [:(]. I'm glad I did it once though.
....

But your mileage may vary [:)] For me PDU On now and forever [:D]

+1

[LargeSlowTarget]

I have never played with PDU off and have accepted a PBEM as Japan with PDU off a few days before this thread started. Boy, I did not realize what I'm getting into until it was too late... (gee, sounds like marriage!)

I'm with the gorn: "I don't want to be forced to make any mistakes that were made historically after 12/8/41. On the other hand I don't want to be able to do anything that was simply impossible."

Some compromise between PDU on and off would be nice. It looks like a patch or a beta has introduced the possibility to change upgrade paths by paying PPs. That's a start. Let's see how it plays out.

[JocMeister]

Not far enough into my first PDU OFF game to really cast a verdict on it yet. But so far I like it. Adds a whole new dimension to the game.

There are some very competent Japanese players playing PDU OFF right now. GreyJoy, Puhis, Fcharton, Mr.Kane and now Q-ball (sorry if I missed anyone). I think once those game gets a little further on we have a good benchmark for discussing PDU ON/OFF.

Just a hunch but I think in the end the verdict will probably be that neither of them is very well balanced from a gameplay perspective. Time will tell though. [:)]

[Encircled]

Playing as Japan against a human opponent (Hi Lee!) with PDU off.

Sept '42 and its a real challenge from an R & D point of view (as has already been noted!)

Can someone confirm that you can or cannot skip models? (ie do I have to build the Sen Baku when it comes available). GJ appears to say you can't, while Pulis says (well, appears to!) you can.

It would certainly help!

[cohimbra]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Playing as Japan against a human opponent (Hi Lee!) with PDU off.

Sept '42 and its a real challenge from an R & D point of view (as has already been noted!)

Can someone confirm that you can or cannot skip models? (ie do I have to build the Sen Baku when it comes available). GJ appears to say you can't, while Pulis says (well, appears to!) you can.

It would certainly help!

Well...it depends. If you don't want to produce a model that you need for some Sentai upgrade, but this model came as reinforcement (with the classic 2 planes), you can disband it and use this 2 a/c for upgrading you Sentai's. At least I think you can do that...but I'm not sure, I'm int early war and I've never tried it.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Playing as Japan against a human opponent (Hi Lee!) with PDU off.

Sept '42 and its a real challenge from an R & D point of view (as has already been noted!)

Can someone confirm that you can or cannot skip models? (ie do I have to build the Sen Baku when it comes available). GJ appears to say you can't, while Pulis says (well, appears to!) you can.

It would certainly help!

Well...it depends. If you don't want to produce a model that you need for some Sentai upgrade, but this model came as reinforcement (with the classic 2 planes), you can disband it and use this 2 a/c for upgrading you Sentai's. At least I think you can do that...but I'm not sure, I'm int early war and I've never tried it.

Imho if a sentai has, for example, this upgrade path:

A6M2->A6M2 Sen Baku->A6M5b->A6M5c->A6M8

You cannot move from A6M2 to A6M5b (even when Sen Baku becomes available) without first upgrading to Sen Baku.
And to upgrade a sentai to a certain model you need to have at least the needed number of a/c in the pools if u want to upgrade.
So, at least 45 Sen Baku must be produced, sooner or later, if you want to move this sentai from the A6M2 to the A6M5b

[GreyJoy]

To be honest, i am pretty tired of PDU ON.
I have been on both sides of the hill with PDU ON and i can tell you that Japan's ability to steamline the production of only the best models can kill a game later in the war.
In 1942 you'll see thousands of KI-44 IIc dominating the skies
In 1943 the skies are full of KI-84a (and "r"), N1K2 (and 5), J2M5 and A6M8s
In 1944 it gets worse. KI-83s, A7M2s, KI-94s... really becomes impossible

The allies NEED to be able to advance and to gain the superiority in the skies. Period.
With PDU OFF Japan is still able to defend itselef, but can't hope to STOP the allies in the skies (as it should be).
Also it's much more challenging to be able to get the best out of the limits the PDU OFF imposes you.

my 0,2 cents obviouslt

[DanSez]

ORIGINAL: Kull

ORIGINAL: DanSez

I disagree with the "more historical" for PDU OFF argument as it is focused on only one end of the equation - force structure and not on the underlying "ahistorical" problem of force projection.
ok... I've reworded this 6 times now.

Maybe this needs its own thread --- has the virtues of PDU ON/OFF been hashed out before?

Q-Ball, sorry for the interruption. Good luck with your game.

It usually comes down to personal preference. For me the guiding factor is, "PBEM or AI opponents?" If the former, the Japanese player needs all the help he can get and thus PDU-on is perfectly acceptable. If the latter, the human player already has significant advantages and thus PDU-off helps level the playing field.

That is a good point.

Thanks.

[Encircled]

Cheers GJ

That makes sense but I wanted to be sure.

[SuluSea]

Very good stuff GJ!

I'm a believer that PDU on although it benefits both Japan doesn't reap it as much as does that Allies. Among other things like facing better planes that would have been withdrawn off map , because of interior lines and early initiative Japan can have its best at the place or places of its choosing while the Allies have to react. It's much easier doing that for the Allies with PDU on.

This thread has shown me the benefits for Japan may be better than I believed a short time ago with PDU off.

Thanks all. [:)]

[cohimbra]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Playing as Japan against a human opponent (Hi Lee!) with PDU off.

Sept '42 and its a real challenge from an R & D point of view (as has already been noted!)

Can someone confirm that you can or cannot skip models? (ie do I have to build the Sen Baku when it comes available). GJ appears to say you can't, while Pulis says (well, appears to!) you can.

It would certainly help!

Well...it depends. If you don't want to produce a model that you need for some Sentai upgrade, but this model came as reinforcement (with the classic 2 planes), you can disband it and use this 2 a/c for upgrading you Sentai's. At least I think you can do that...but I'm not sure, I'm int early war and I've never tried it.

Imho if a sentai has, for example, this upgrade path:

A6M2->A6M2 Sen Baku->A6M5b->A6M5c->A6M8

You cannot move from A6M2 to A6M5b (even when Sen Baku becomes available) without first upgrading to Sen Baku.
And to upgrade a sentai to a certain model you need to have at least the needed number of a/c in the pools if u want to upgrade.
So, at least 45 Sen Baku must be produced, sooner or later, if you want to move this sentai from the A6M2 to the A6M5b

This point is the point, I think. You certainly have more experience compared to me, but take a look at the image of 61st Sentai (Ki-21-Ic); I've only 5 Ki-49-Ia in the pool but the Sentai can upgrade to this new model (playing PBEM, Beta Patch x8).



If I'm in right, this can greatly change the production plans. Oh my, now I'm confused...[:)]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Not far enough into my first PDU OFF game to really cast a verdict on it yet. But so far I like it. Adds a whole new dimension to the game.

There are some very competent Japanese players playing PDU OFF right now. GreyJoy, Puhis, Fcharton, Mr.Kane and now Q-ball (sorry if I missed anyone). I think once those game gets a little further on we have a good benchmark for discussing PDU ON/OFF.

Just a hunch but I think in the end the verdict will probably be that neither of them is very well balanced from a gameplay perspective. Time will tell though. [:)]

There were lot's of PDU OFF AAR's done long time ago. So, this new spate is a case for me of "been there, done that". All the current games are still quite early, the mid-43 blues that will last until whenever the games end hasn't hit any of them.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

To be honest, i am pretty tired of PDU ON.
I have been on both sides of the hill with PDU ON and i can tell you that Japan's ability to steamline the production of only the best models can kill a game later in the war.
In 1942 you'll see thousands of KI-44 IIc dominating the skies
In 1943 the skies are full of KI-84a (and "r"), N1K2 (and 5), J2M5 and A6M8s
In 1944 it gets worse. KI-83s, A7M2s, KI-94s... really becomes impossible

The allies NEED to be able to advance and to gain the superiority in the skies. Period.
With PDU OFF Japan is still able to defend itselef, but can't hope to STOP the allies in the skies (as it should be).
Also it's much more challenging to be able to get the best out of the limits the PDU OFF imposes you.

my 0,2 cents obviouslt

Maybe you are playing against the wrong people lol. Just kidding [:)]

I finished a game as Japan all the way into 1945 (I lost) with PDU On and my Allied opponent was able to advance pretty well in the game. About 3-6 months behind historical schedule. He also had no problem establishing air superiority in key areas he wanted it.

There are two major flaws in your comments. 1) I had lots of advanced planes but without supplies/airfields to base them on it did me no good that I had lots of these plane types. Especially in the CenPac area.

2) While I could rotate planes out that were getting beat up, the Allies did not seem to have that problem. So at some point you will run out of flyable planes IF the Allies are willing to keep the pressure up. And he did.

So it is no how many of a type of plane (at least until they start bombing Japan) when Japan is limited on how many good airfields with good supplies in late '43/44.

At least this is what happened in my game.

Edit: Added the quote in since I can't type fast enough to keep up with everyone else lol

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
There were lot's of PDU OFF AAR's done long time ago. So, this new spate is a case for me of "been there, done that". All the current games are still quite early, the mid-43 blues that will last until whenever the games end hasn't hit any of them.

Key words here being "a long time ago". Lots of things has happened since then. [:)]

[Alfred]

I wasn't going to comment because there is very little any objective analysis of this issue.  The inaccurate comments and lack of perspective has convinced me I should post a few comments.
 
1.  The human player has always been able to manually upgrade an air unit to another aircraft model provided there is at least 1 of that model in the pools.
 
2.  When air unit upgrades are left on automatic, the upgrade only ensues when there are sufficient aircraft in the pools to fill out the complete TOE.
 
3.  Upgrading air units follows the same principles as those applicable to units set to not withdraw or set to withdraw respectively.
 
4.  Classical WITP was released with no PDU ON option.  IOW everyone was stuck with PDU OFF.  The game was tested with PDU OFF.  The game abstractions took into account that it was played under PDU OFF conditions.  Game balancing/victory conditions were set on the basis of PDU OFF.
 
5.  Due to a vociferous player uproar which demanded having the option of PDU ON for classical WITP, a patch introduced PDU ON.  It was introduced essentially as a game marketing exercise.
 
6.  AE merely carried on the marketing decision of classical WITP even though key AE devs did not consider the game should be played with PDU ON.
 
7.  From the beginning of the WITP family, even with PDU OFF, the aircraft production and logistics model has always been of greater benefit to Japan than to the Allies.  It makes playing Japan easier than it would be otherwise, but not to the extent that it prevents good Allied play from overcoming that benefit.
 
8.  PDU ON provides some additional benefits to an Allied player but the benefits to the Japanese player are even more.
 
In summary, with PDU OFF, there is a delta in favour of Japan.  With PDU ON the delta in favour of Japan widens but Allied players have tended to play with it because they too receive some benefits which makes it easier for them to play the game.
 
Alfred

[Encircled]

Thanks for the clarification, especially point 1)

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I wasn't going to comment because there is very little any objective analysis of this issue.  The inaccurate comments and lack of perspective has convinced me I should post a few comments.

1.  The human player has always been able to manually upgrade an air unit to another aircraft model provided there is at least 1 of that model in the pools.

2.  When air unit upgrades are left on automatic, the upgrade only ensues when there are sufficient aircraft in the pools to fill out the complete TOE.

3.  Upgrading air units follows the same principles as those applicable to units set to not withdraw or set to withdraw respectively.

4.  Classical WITP was released with no PDU ON option.  IOW everyone was stuck with PDU OFF.  The game was tested with PDU OFF.  The game abstractions took into account that it was played under PDU OFF conditions.  Game balancing/victory conditions were set on the basis of PDU OFF.

5.  Due to a vociferous player uproar which demanded having the option of PDU ON for classical WITP, a patch introduced PDU ON.  It was introduced essentially as a game marketing exercise.

6.  AE merely carried on the marketing decision of classical WITP even though key AE devs did not consider the game should be played with PDU ON.

7.  From the beginning of the WITP family, even with PDU OFF, the aircraft production and logistics model has always been of greater benefit to Japan than to the Allies.  It makes playing Japan easier than it would be otherwise, but not to the extent that it prevents good Allied play from overcoming that benefit.

8.  PDU ON provides some additional benefits to an Allied player but the benefits to the Japanese player are even more.

In summary, with PDU OFF, there is a delta in favour of Japan.  With PDU ON the delta in favour of Japan widens but Allied players have tended to play with it because they too receive some benefits which makes it easier for them to play the game.

Alfred

Thanks Alfred, very informative and useful, as always.

So, to get back on QBall's main question, now we know for certain that you can upgrade the group provided there's at least one plane in the pools.
Doesn't change much, imho, in the general picture.
If you want to upgrade those mentioned sentais from the original A6M2, you have two choices: wait untill the first Sen Baku reinforcement sentai arrives (and so disband it and use the 2 planes it has to upgrade as alfred said), or you need to RnD it and produce it at least to a certain extent...so to be able to get to a better plane a lot earlier.
To me, it's pretty clear that it's better the second option.