Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

To be honest, i am pretty tired of PDU ON.
I have been on both sides of the hill with PDU ON and i can tell you that Japan's ability to steamline the production of only the best models can kill a game later in the war.
In 1942 you'll see thousands of KI-44 IIc dominating the skies
In 1943 the skies are full of KI-84a (and "r"), N1K2 (and 5), J2M5 and A6M8s
In 1944 it gets worse. KI-83s, A7M2s, KI-94s... really becomes impossible

The allies NEED to be able to advance and to gain the superiority in the skies. Period.
With PDU OFF Japan is still able to defend itselef, but can't hope to STOP the allies in the skies (as it should be).
Also it's much more challenging to be able to get the best out of the limits the PDU OFF imposes you.

my 0,2 cents obviouslt

Maybe you are playing against the wrong people lol. Just kidding [:)]

I finished a game as Japan all the way into 1945 (I lost) with PDU On and my Allied opponent was able to advance pretty well in the game. About 3-6 months behind historical schedule. He also had no problem establishing air superiority in key areas he wanted it.

There are two major flaws in your comments. 1) I had lots of advanced planes but without supplies/airfields to base them on it did me no good that I had lots of these plane types. Especially in the CenPac area.

2) While I could rotate planes out that were getting beat up, the Allies did not seem to have that problem. So at some point you will run out of flyable planes IF the Allies are willing to keep the pressure up. And he did.

So it is no how many of a type of plane (at least until they start bombing Japan) when Japan is limited on how many good airfields with good supplies in late '43/44.

At least this is what happened in my game.

Edit: Added the quote in since I can't type fast enough to keep up with everyone else lol

For sure the allies can win (and will win most of the times) even with PDU ON.
The point i was trying to make is that with PDU ON Japan can much more than just rationalize its war production.
The 20/20 insight we all have means that Japan will skip the 80% of the models, thus obtaining a steamlined production,getting ONLY the best possible models available. With the numbers Japan can produce, the allies will always be outnumbered, even in quality, which isn't exactly kosher imho.
In my last Japanese game agaist QBall i was losing the grip by mid 1944, but i was never really in difficulty when talking about aircrafts or air superiority. The only way the allies had to obtain a stable air superiority over an area was to use the naval bombardments to shut down many AFs at the same time. The P47s are superior,right, but they are just too few to do the job.
If Japan can upgrade all its Army Sentais to KI-84r by mid 1943 (and this can be done pretty easily), producing 4/500 Franks monthly and all the Navy Sentais to N1K2 (SR=2), we go out pretty much from what it should be, imho.
Imagine if in BTR Germany could fill, by early 1943, only Me262 and FW 190D...

Anyway, that's just my opinion. Let's see what i willthink about PDU OFF when i'll be in 1943/44 [:)]

[szmike]

ORIGINAL: Alfred
3.  Upgrading air units follows the same principles as those applicable to units set to not withdraw or set to withdraw respectively.

Alfred

Units scheduled to disband require complete TOE amount of aircraft to downgrade. I don't know if to upgrade too, never tried.

edit: I wasn't correct.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

To be honest, i am pretty tired of PDU ON.
I have been on both sides of the hill with PDU ON and i can tell you that Japan's ability to steamline the production of only the best models can kill a game later in the war.
In 1942 you'll see thousands of KI-44 IIc dominating the skies
In 1943 the skies are full of KI-84a (and "r"), N1K2 (and 5), J2M5 and A6M8s
In 1944 it gets worse. KI-83s, A7M2s, KI-94s... really becomes impossible

The allies NEED to be able to advance and to gain the superiority in the skies. Period.
With PDU OFF Japan is still able to defend itselef, but can't hope to STOP the allies in the skies (as it should be).
Also it's much more challenging to be able to get the best out of the limits the PDU OFF imposes you.

my 0,2 cents obviouslt

Maybe you are playing against the wrong people lol. Just kidding [:)]

I finished a game as Japan all the way into 1945 (I lost) with PDU On and my Allied opponent was able to advance pretty well in the game. About 3-6 months behind historical schedule. He also had no problem establishing air superiority in key areas he wanted it.

There are two major flaws in your comments. 1) I had lots of advanced planes but without supplies/airfields to base them on it did me no good that I had lots of these plane types. Especially in the CenPac area.

2) While I could rotate planes out that were getting beat up, the Allies did not seem to have that problem. So at some point you will run out of flyable planes IF the Allies are willing to keep the pressure up. And he did.

So it is no how many of a type of plane (at least until they start bombing Japan) when Japan is limited on how many good airfields with good supplies in late '43/44.

At least this is what happened in my game.

Edit: Added the quote in since I can't type fast enough to keep up with everyone else lol

For sure the allies can win (and will win most of the times) even with PDU ON.
The point i was trying to make is that with PDU ON Japan can much more than just rationalize its war production.
The 20/20 insight we all have means that Japan will skip the 80% of the models, thus obtaining a steamlined production,getting ONLY the best possible models available. With the numbers Japan can produce, the allies will always be outnumbered, even in quality, which isn't exactly kosher imho.
In my last Japanese game agaist QBall i was losing the grip by mid 1944, but i was never really in difficulty when talking about aircrafts or air superiority. The only way the allies had to obtain a stable air superiority over an area was to use the naval bombardments to shut down many AFs at the same time. The P47s are superior,right, but they are just too few to do the job.
If Japan can upgrade all its Army Sentais to KI-84r by mid 1943 (and this can be done pretty easily), producing 4/500 Franks monthly and all the Navy Sentais to N1K2 (SR=2), we go out pretty much from what it should be, imho.
Imagine if in BTR Germany could fill, by early 1943, only Me262 and FW 190D...

Anyway, that's just my opinion. Let's see what i willthink about PDU OFF when i'll be in 1943/44 [:)]

Thanks for the measured response [:)]

From my experience, you will not be as happy [:D]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


For sure the allies can win (and will win most of the times) even with PDU ON.
The point i was trying to make is that with PDU ON Japan can much more than just rationalize its war production.
The 20/20 insight we all have means that Japan will skip the 80% of the models, thus obtaining a steamlined production,getting ONLY the best possible models available. With the numbers Japan can produce, the allies will always be outnumbered, even in quality, which isn't exactly kosher imho.
In my last Japanese game agaist QBall i was losing the grip by mid 1944, but i was never really in difficulty when talking about aircrafts or air superiority. The only way the allies had to obtain a stable air superiority over an area was to use the naval bombardments to shut down many AFs at the same time. The P47s are superior,right, but they are just too few to do the job.
If Japan can upgrade all its Army Sentais to KI-84r by mid 1943 (and this can be done pretty easily), producing 4/500 Franks monthly and all the Navy Sentais to N1K2 (SR=2), we go out pretty much from what it should be, imho.
Imagine if in BTR Germany could fill, by early 1943, only Me262 and FW 190D...

Exactly, PDU ON allows the games to get deep into '45 and '46. Allies will NOT have air superiority until '45 after VE day. Aug '45 is when the get tons of P51/B17. That's what allows the games to go longer and actually give the IJ players a chance to "win". It puts pressure on the allies to work fast ... if they can start in '44 its just too easy. All the recent AAR's where the IJ has "won" are all because the allied capitulated with frustration, and then in review you can see that they likely could have won, but it would have taken another 12 - 18 months of game time ... in two recent csaes the IJ 'won', but the allies didn't know how close the IJ was to economic implosion...

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Anyway, that's just my opinion. Let's see what i will think about PDU OFF when i'll be in 1943/44 [:)]

You want to go back and review some of the old AAR's pre-PDU ON. There are a lot of lessons learned. The IJ absolutely can give a good game with PDU OFF, but the odds are much narrower as compared to PDU ON. The ability to recover from a bad roll is simply much less. The old Cuttlefish and Stoneage (really good) really need review for PDU-OFF games. Stoneage, in particular, put up one of the bravest fights in WitPAE history.[&o][&o][&o]

And while, yes, there have been changes since those games; nothing that will impact the strategies and tactics developed.

[Walker84]

An interesting discussion. Having played Japan with PDU on the last few times my latest opponent and I have agreed to go with PDU off this time. Partly, I was interested to see how this would play out in a historical sense but, increasingly now, I feel a sense of relief that I won't now be under self-imposed pressure to R&D and mass produce huge numbers of Japan's most successful airframes while ignoring most of the rest.

Clearly it's everyone's choice whether to adopt PDU on or off, and we are all fighting the war with 20:20 hindsight but, as this is a war simulation, I found myself asking at what point would the Japanese high command have realised which planes to invest in that would go on to be war winners while consigning others to the scrapheap before they had even got off the drawing board let alone been flown and tested?

Perhaps one way of addressing PDU on is for players to adopt some self-imposed R&D restrictions akin to HRs so that it is not just Franks etc coming off the lines in '44. For example, I tend to research all of the planned models while increasing R&D of the ones that I consider look most promising according to the specified role. When a model arrives, if it is not up to the spec that the High command asked for, I will produce it in lower numbers or transfer production to a more successful model. I have to confess I'm a bit of a Tony fanboy so have still produced these and other inferior models even with PDU on. Does this mean I will lose the war earlier? Possibly, but at least I have a more interesting roster of planes to play with, and I enjoy eking out the different models by assigning them roles appropriate to their capabilities (or lack of). Lillies especially are pressed into service as ASW platforms from early in the war.

[wdolson]

Whether PDU is ON or OFF, absolutely winning for Japan is very difficult. Winning auto victory on points should be fairly balanced.

One problem Japan does not realistically have to contend with in game, which was the real limiting factor for the introduction of the late war airframes was the high output engine development. Japan was quite advanced in airframe design at war's start, but their engine industry was way behind the curve. The bulk of engines in production at the start of the war were copies of western designs. The Sakae engine that powered the Zero was a license built Gnome-Rhone engine.

The large capacity, high output engines were just coming into production in the west or were limited to domestic military aircraft when the war started. Japan was forced to develop a domestic R&D effort to produce all new high output engines. The timeline for development of these engines was about as fast as it could have ever gone. So it is unrealistic to be able to field fighters using these engines before they were introduced historically. Though the airframes could probably have been available a little earlier than they were historically.

I played WitP before PDU was available and frankly I found it to be a headache. I had all sorts of unrealistic bottlenecks to upgraded because fewer of a plane type was available due to heavier than historical losses. A lot of units were stuck unable to upgrade for a lot longer than they were historically because of shortages of some interim airframe. I only play against the AI, so advancing realistic timelines dramatically doesn't happen, but given the pros and cons, I prefer PDU ON vs OFF, even if it does sometimes result in ahistorical situations.

Bill

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

.... Japan was forced to develop a domestic R&D effort to produce all new high output engines. The timeline for development of these engines was about as fast as it could have ever gone. So it is unrealistic to be able to field fighters using these engines before they were introduced historically. Though the airframes could probably have been available a little earlier than they were historically.

Bill

Which, if my reading and research is correct, was largely related to multi-stage (as opposed to multi-speed) super chargers and twin-chargers. The IJ was really behind in this area and really struggled to get these working. Clearly, all they had to do was ask their Axis partner who had both of these technologies well developed in 1940 while the IJ Ha-4x series of engines were all delayed waiting for one or both of these technologies for 2 years or more. I haven't been able to confirm why/how this didn't happen. Did Hitler say 'no' or did the IJ get a bad case of NIH?
Do you have any insight into this?

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Whether PDU is ON or OFF, absolutely winning for Japan is very difficult. Winning auto victory on points should be fairly balanced.

One problem Japan does not realistically have to contend with in game, which was the real limiting factor for the introduction of the late war airframes was the high output engine development. Japan was quite advanced in airframe design at war's start, but their engine industry was way behind the curve. The bulk of engines in production at the start of the war were copies of western designs. The Sakae engine that powered the Zero was a license built Gnome-Rhone engine.

The large capacity, high output engines were just coming into production in the west or were limited to domestic military aircraft when the war started. Japan was forced to develop a domestic R&D effort to produce all new high output engines. The timeline for development of these engines was about as fast as it could have ever gone. So it is unrealistic to be able to field fighters using these engines before they were introduced historically. Though the airframes could probably have been available a little earlier than they were historically.

I played WitP before PDU was available and frankly I found it to be a headache. I had all sorts of unrealistic bottlenecks to upgraded because fewer of a plane type was available due to heavier than historical losses. A lot of units were stuck unable to upgrade for a lot longer than they were historically because of shortages of some interim airframe. I only play against the AI, so advancing realistic timelines dramatically doesn't happen, but given the pros and cons, I prefer PDU ON vs OFF, even if it does sometimes result in ahistorical situations.

Bill

+1

I just found out in '44 no less that this very thing had happened to me too. And it is so easy to miss due the many similar names like KAIa, KAIb, etc. So I had to downgrade a bunch of factories in order to produce outdated AC just so the squadrons can upgrade to the newer type.

If people want to deal with these types of issues, then go for it [:)] But I am with Bill on this and will never play any game with PDU Off. I can easily make HRs to slow down R&D to more historical levels if needed a lot easier than finding out that I need some KAIa's produced before the stupid planes can upgrade to KAIb's, and then c's. With PDU On I can just switch to the c's directly if I want and continue on my merry way [:)]

[LargeSlowTarget]

Wouldn't increasing the repair costs for engine factories put a break on unrealistic aircraft production and R&D or at least make players think about the trade-off in supply consumption? Paying 5000 supplies per engine factory repair would have an impact on other industry expansions and operations.

[GreyJoy]

I get what you mean guys. With PDU OFF there are bottlenecks and irrational upgrade decisions. Sure.
The most frustrating ones, are IMHO those regardings bomber sentais.
Too many squadrons are scheldued to upgrade to the dreaded Sonia Ki-51b!!!!!!...
But, even if this is for sure a downside for Japan, the benefits for the overall playability are great.
One more example: The Air ASW

In a PDU ON game, Japan will RnD heavily the KI-49(Helen) line.
By mid 1942 more or less ALL the Japanese bomber sentais are equipped with armured Helens.No more useless lilies around, with their 100kg bomb loads.
In these kind of games, Japan can easily devote a great number of Helens to ASW role, thus creating "No-subs zones" in the whole Co-Prosperity Sphere, and still have enough Helens to be able to use them as normal bombers.
In a PDU OFF game Japan needs to use Sonias, Anns and Idas for ASW role. The results are obvious (due to range and bombloads): the sub war becomes much more closer to RL.

Also the tempo of operations (concerning both Japan expansion and allied counter advance) should be slowed down a lot in a PDU OFF game.

However, i think Pax is right, we'll soon see how all these new PDU OFF games (most started with DBB mod with stacking limits) will become once 1943 will roll in. I am pretty curious to see how it develops...

[Encircled]

Just for the record, mines a Scenario 1 PDU off game with stacking limits, using the May 1st scenario start.

My R & D starts off all over the place, so I'm going to be even further behind everybody else.[:)]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
We'll soon see how all these new PDU OFF games (most started with DBB mod with stacking limits) will become once 1943 will roll in. I am pretty curious to see how it develops...

Me too! [&o]

Compared to PDU ON it will no doubt be a very different experience for both sides. Better or worse? Probably overall a better game experience as it rectifies a few problems. ASW air as you point out are one but there are several other things that are effected in a positive way.

The big question though is that if reducing the effect of Japans biggest advantage it has become too hard to defend the empire in mid to late war. Might be. But if the allies can move forward despite a massive Japanese advantage in the air I see no reason why Japan couldn´t defend under the reverse conditions.

As a member of this forum like to remind me. "You are to air centric". [:)]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Wouldn't increasing the repair costs for engine factories put a break on unrealistic aircraft production and R&D or at least make players think about the trade-off in supply consumption? Paying 5000 supplies per engine factory repair would have an impact on other industry expansions and operations.

In my personal mod, this is what I have done. All of the Ha-4x engines cost 1250 - 1500 to build/repair. The jet costs 2000. Then for AC that use them, on many of them I have added extra engine(s) to the AC to reflect the maintenance cost/difficulty for the IJ to support. I'm still balancing that, but it is working. I'm wishing in several cases that I could a 1/2 engine. [;)] The only place this concept doesn't work is with fighters: there is hard code malus for 2E vs 1E fighters ... so adding an engine to the Frank impacts its performance against the allied fighters which is NOT a desired intent. So for the fighters, I am forced to go with Fighter-Only variants of the Ha-4x engines (principally the Ha45f) and adjust it's cost.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

I am pretty curious to see how it develops...

As we all are ...

[8D]

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
We'll soon see how all these new PDU OFF games (most started with DBB mod with stacking limits) will become once 1943 will roll in. I am pretty curious to see how it develops...

Me too! [&o]

Compared to PDU ON it will no doubt be a very different experience for both sides. Better or worse? Probably overall a better game experience as it rectifies a few problems. ASW air as you point out are one but there are several other things that are effected in a positive way.

The big question though is that if reducing the effect of Japans biggest advantage it has become too hard to defend the empire in mid to late war. Might be. But if the allies can move forward despite a massive Japanese advantage in the air I see no reason why Japan couldn�t defend under the reverse conditions.

As a member of this forum like to remind me. "You are to air centric". [:)]

Japan's air arm under PDU Off will be very decimated by mid '44. They will have too few squadrons to be able to even dent the Allies 4E and overall better planes. Having to use Oscors IIs to defend against bombers does not work very well. But you have no choice when you have so few squadrons of planes that at least has a chance of some damage.

Since my game is already in March '44 with PDU Off this is not something I am just guessing at. So I would expect the Allies to win sometime in '44 with skills of similar quality. Since I lost a game in Jan '45 with PDU On against a really good Allied player, I would not find it surprising for Japan to lose in '44 with PDU Off.

[MrKane]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

To be honest, i am pretty tired of PDU ON.
I have been on both sides of the hill with PDU ON and i can tell you that Japan's ability to steamline the production of only the best models can kill a game later in the war.
In 1942 you'll see thousands of KI-44 IIc dominating the skies
In 1943 the skies are full of KI-84a (and "r"), N1K2 (and 5), J2M5 and A6M8s
In 1944 it gets worse. KI-83s, A7M2s, KI-94s... really becomes impossible

The allies NEED to be able to advance and to gain the superiority in the skies. Period.
With PDU OFF Japan is still able to defend itselef, but can't hope to STOP the allies in the skies (as it should be).
Also it's much more challenging to be able to get the best out of the limits the PDU OFF imposes you.

my 0,2 cents obviouslt

Nicola, I am afraid that I cannot agree - pdu-on, *pdu-off

- Ki-44 IIc got into service ~Jan-March '43 and become main IJA fighter till end, 10 units, before I had 6 units Ki-44-IIa
* It will be replaced by Ki-43-IIIa and Ki-43-IV, but still 5 units Ki-44 capable

- I never have a single Ki-84a . I moved directly to Ki-84r and I had only six units of them due to high losses. (
* No problem to have 6 units of Franks, there is 17 units Frank capable

- 1 Ku J2M, 5 Ku N1K, other navy units were equipped with all kind of zeros till end
* 3 Ku for J2M(super fighter right now), 6 Ku N1K

- Ki-83 = 12/44. Ki-94 = 1/45, A7M2 mid/44.
* no change

- All Ki-84 were transform to Ki-83.
* now Ki-84 need to be replaced by Ki-94

- There was only one unit with Ki-94 and one J7W.
* more Ki-94

- 4 A7M2 Ku, it was one big fail airframe, it does not have chance against F4U
* no change, still crap plane

- 4 K-100, the same story like A7M2, fail airframe
* look more promising and a lot of units can convert to this airframe

As you can see with PDU-OFF I can have very similar setup against Jocke. And PDU does not affect R&D or production (just need produce 50 useless airframes of few models for upgrading process). It does not change anything except need more time for planning at the beginning. I do not see how pdu-off will change my play style. I do not feel slow down in my advances by pdu-off. Right now with each turn I am more convinced that it is mostly time consuming thing.

[Puhis]

In my game that ended (3/1944) I had about 250 Franks and 160 Tojos. Many Tony units too. For example In 50 days I was going to get 100 Franks more. It's not enough to rule the skies, sure. For me one of the fun part of the game is how to use my air assets. I still had enough air force to get local and temporary air superiority. In Burma allies had lot of problems to use their fighters and bombers.

Oscars (IIb and IIIa) were still the most common IJA fighter units. I did use some of the IIIa's in front line bases with better models, but mainly Oscars were for
1) defending bases outside enemy fighter range
2) Training (no more Nate units to do training)
3) Fighter-bombers when enemy didn't have much AA (in China). Oscars have bomb load of 2 x 250 kg, that's good for Japanese plane.

To me lack of good air units was not the biggest problem. It was the strategic mistakes I made that cost me Marshall and Solomon island and made running air war that area rather impossible. It was still fun game, I felt sorry the game ended.

[GreyJoy]

Don't know guys...
In my game against QBall (DBB 30, PDU ON, Realistic RnD ON) in Jan 1944 I was producing:
322 Frank KI-84r (had produced a huge number of Frank-a too)
250 George N1K2
200 Jack J2M5
170 A6M5
205 KI-43 IV
170 KI-44 IIc
60 KI-45a



Also it's not just about fighters... with PDU OFF the bomber sector is possibly even more involved in the changements...
In a normal PDU ON game, I basically transform, by 1943, the IJN bomber army in a mass of Frances and G3M3 (Nells), using the Nells just for Nav Search and the Frances to hit (fast and armoured).
All the LBA 1E sentais are upgraded to Jills and Judies (no more Kates or Vals around).
The army bombers get steamlined into a big Air Army of Helens IIb that do a multi-function role (Air2Ground, Low Nav attacks, ASW, Kamikaze).
No more Sallies, Anns, Lilies, Idas, Sonias...
The Army 1E bombers are all converted to FB (Nicks and, later on, KI-102b)

That doesn't mean the allies cannot win. They can win. But they simply can't achieve anything close to what happened in RL.

I perfectly understand (and agree) that PDU OFF is frustrating cause you cannot change the bad decisions taken in RL.
Probably, the best way to deal with this problem, is to create a scenario that modifies most of those stupid upgrade paths, so that the Jap player will still be forced to disperse his production among several models, but not taking from him the possibility to get, sooner or later, to a decent plane even for those sentais that are damned to fly Sonias, Anns or Marys throughout the whole war

[Numdydar]

That a great idea, but outside the scope of what can be done unfortunately with the current game [:(]

[DanSez]

edited