You know WWII Is Forgotten When

[Zorch]

Australia Nears Deal to Buy Up to 10 Japanese Submarines
Deal Worth as Much as $18.7 Billion Would Make Japan a Weapons Exporter for First Time Since World War II

http://online.wsj.com/articles/australi ... 1410166854

[dr.hal]

I wonder if the RAN is going to put a height limit on their sailors! Ok, bad joke.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Where is the float plane hangar?

[Lokasenna]

Not really sure this means that WW2 is forgotten, just that the people and nations involved have (rightly) moved on, which is ideal and good! We don't want nations holding grudges against each other forever, lest we have wars forever.

Also not attacking anybody or anything in this thread with this comment - it applies to all countries that have ever fought each other and then became friends to a greater or lesser degree.

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Not really sure this means that WW2 is forgotten, just that the people and nations involved have (rightly) moved on, which is ideal and good! We don't want nations holding grudges against each other forever, lest we have wars forever.

Also not attacking anybody or anything in this thread with this comment - it applies to all countries that have ever fought each other and then became friends to a greater or lesser degree.

PLUS ONE. I believe we need to teach the younger people about the causes and effects of WWII and other wars so that hopefully we won't have to relearn the lessons of the past....GP

[dr.hal]

I don't know if you folks are old enough to remember the movie "The Mouse that Roared" but it was a spoof on the US and it's willingness to help states that it once fought against. The theme is a tiny state decides to "Declare War" on the US in order to save itself from economic disaster. Quite funny, and also an underlining truth. Even Vietnam is becoming an ally given China's threat to its water rights. The twists in history are such fun to untangle. Most states do have the ability to "move on" but the problem in some areas of the globe is the inability for some "nations" to let go of the past and adopt a new perspective.

[sanch]

I was in Hungary some years back and got the opportunity to understand the people and their views of the neighbors.

While in Budapest, SO and I signed up for a tour up the Danube to the Slovak border. The tour was a bus with a driver and a guide. And the two of us were the only tourists! The tour guide was a 30-something school teacher making some extra money while on her summer vacation. So we had a perfect opportunity to learn about the people.

I was amazed by what I heard. The Hungarians really dislike the Rumanians, as they hold territory that should be theirs. Same with the Slovaks. They hate Austrians because they were the short end of the Austro-Hungarian empire. And of course they cannot stand the Russians because of 40 years of communist oppression. In short, they hate all their neighbors! I said to myself, no wonder there's always been some war brewing in Europe over the centuries.

Up on the Slovak border, there was a bridge still not repaired from WWII; because Slovakia and Hungary could not agree on who should pay!

And in the national museum in Budapest, there's a 10 foot high map of Hungary - in all its former splendor down to the Adriatic Sea.

It was an eye-opening bus ride indeed.

[Barb]

Hi Sanch,
I am from the Slovak republic...

Most of what you are talking about is more or less truth... Here is some insight into the history of this region:

If you look at the demographic and historical (nationalities and stuff) map of Europe you see several groups in the Europe - There are "Germanic tribes" that built a "wall" from the Denmark to the Adriatic - there are "Frankish tribes" that occupies land from Holland to Pyrenees. Then there is a group of "Northern Slavs" - going all the way from Baltic states to the borders of Slovakia... group of "Western Slavs" - Czechs and Slovaks mainly ...and group of "Southern Slavs" - Slovenians, Croats, Serbs - all the way to the Greece. Then a big group of "Eastern Slavs" - Ukrainians, Belorussians and Russians mostly.

And somewhere in the middle of all those Slavic tribes there lies a Hungary - these tribes got here in the late 9th century. Having nothing in common with local tribes they built their state by subduing local populace and territorial expansion and settled up here.

What is now Slovakia became part of Hungary in 11th century - Kingdom of Hungary ranged from Carpathian mountains to the Greece. When Turks, Mongols and Avars become threat Hungary was a buffer state of Europe - many battles were fought on the Hungarian plains - Several crusades passed the Kingdom of Hungary... yet the Turks got all the way up to the Vienna. And mountainous country of Slovakia with its deep valleys served as shelter, gold and silver from Slovak mountains kept economy running, local populace provided many soldiers, manufactures produced what was needed, etc. Bratislava (capital of Slovakia) was a crowning city for Hungarian Kings for three centuries (1536 to 1830) while Buda was occupied by Ottomans.

All we got back in middle of 19th century was Hungarian nationalism, "Magyarization" - "There is no other nation than Hungarian in Hungary" - teaching Slovak language was forbidden, press had to be in hungarian, offical language was hungarian, etc...

In 1918 we finally got chance to create a separate state - with Czechs (in similar relationship to Austrian Empire as Slovakia to Hungary) - Czechoslovakia was born - in an attempt to be strong enough to avoid Hungarian territorial and nationalistic claims. In 1938-39 after Munich and annexation of Czech republic, Slovakia became separated - and in 1939 Hungarians attacked Slovakia and occupied parts of it. We took to Germany for protection and later send two divisions to fight in Russia - we may not be very proud of it, but it was the price for keeping sovereignty.

In 1945 we again became part of Czechoslovakia. Yet in 1991 we separated once again - Creating the first truly independent state of our own since 9th century (Great Moravia). Yet Hungarians still look on Slovakia as "part of their territory".

I am not a Hungaro-phobic, nor Slovakian nationalist, nor a racist... Actually many people speaking Slovak live in Hungary and many people speaking Hungarian lives in Slovakia. I have friends among those and I do not resent the history - Slovakia without Hungary probably wouldn't have survived - Hungary without Slovakia wouldn't probably either. It just was the way it was. I do not want to "Take into tanks and onto Budapest" (as one our political leader said once - probably drunk [:D]).

Yet it hurts to see occasionally in the TV news a group of "Hungarian guards" (nationalistic groups) marching and their leaders claiming "Hungarian Empire in its former borders". Also Hungarian parliament announcing a "double nationality". Hungarian people asking for bilingual naming of streets and cities in Slovakia (we do not have the same with Czech, Polish, Austrian or Ukrainian naming), having schools teaching solely in Hungarian language... Somewhat reminds me of "Sudetenland"...

We - Slovaks - may have not the best relations with Hungary (like the bridge you mentioned, or Nagymaros part of the Gabčíkovo-Nagymaros dam), but I hope we all are reasonable people here...[;)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: sanch

I was in Hungary some years back and got the opportunity to understand the people and their views of the neighbors.

While in Budapest, SO and I signed up for a tour up the Danube to the Slovak border. The tour was a bus with a driver and a guide. And the two of us were the only tourists! The tour guide was a 30-something school teacher making some extra money while on her summer vacation. So we had a perfect opportunity to learn about the people.

I was amazed by what I heard. The Hungarians really dislike the Rumanians, as they hold territory that should be theirs. Same with the Slovaks. They hate Austrians because they were the short end of the Austro-Hungarian empire. And of course they cannot stand the Russians because of 40 years of communist oppression. In short, they hate all their neighbors! I said to myself, no wonder there's always been some war brewing in Europe over the centuries.

Up on the Slovak border, there was a bridge still not repaired from WWII; because Slovakia and Hungary could not agree on who should pay!

And in the national museum in Budapest, there's a 10 foot high map of Hungary - in all its former splendor down to the Adriatic Sea.

It was an eye-opening bus ride indeed.

Warspite1

The Hungarians and Romanians were more interested in fighting each other in WWII than fighting the Soviets. I understand that shots were fired at each other on more than one occasion - AFTER Barbarossa had started!!!

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal
is the inability for some "nations" to let go of the past and adopt a new perspective.

Yep, if WWI and WWII taught the world anything, it should be that in war, the peace that comes after is just as important if not more so than the conflict itself.

Jim

[Cribtop]

Re diplomatic revolutions a/k/a making nice with last war's enemy, I've always held to the British maxim that nations do not have permanent allies or enemies, only permanent interests.

[pontiouspilot]

These subs are likely to be a hell of a lot better than the crappy used subs the Brits sucked us into buying!!....and we their Allies!!

[Endy]

Well, Germany is selling subs to Israel so I don't think history stands in the way of arms dealing business

And as for the discussion about nations hating each other because of stuff that happened in the past, well, it's quite normal around Europe. So much has happened in history, there have been so many different wars, treacheries, broken promises, stolen pieces of land, reclaimed, stolen again etc. that most countries either hate their neighbours, don't really like them but cooperate, or treat them like slightly retarded cousins, someone always being the butt of a joke.

The only exception I know of is the Polish-Hungarian friendship, which lasted for a couple hundred years since the middle ages despite us being neighbouring countries a few times and even despite Hungary being in Alliance with 3rd Reich during WWII. In the beginning of WWII Hungary declined to help Hitler in any way with the invasion of Poland or using their territory to stage the invasion of Poland from (Hitler was furious about that) and even prepared to defend themselves should Germany try to enforce it. After Poland was conquered, around 100.000 refugees found shelter in Hungary and Hungary also helped smuggle many Polish soldiers get to France and England. Until May 1940 around 35.000 Polish troops (officially interned in September 1939) were transferred west. During the Warsaw uprising there were secret talks about Hungarian troops stationed in Poland switching sides and helping the Poles. All that while Hungary was still in alliance with Hitler, so you can imagine how strong that friendship was. Until today we feel a lot of symapthy for each other and have the same saying in both, so different languages, that we are like cousins, always eager to fight together as well as drink

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I don't know if you folks are old enough to remember the movie "The Mouse that Roared" but it was a spoof on the US and it's willingness to help states that it once fought against. The theme is a tiny state decides to "Declare War" on the US in order to save itself from economic disaster. Quite funny, and also an underlining truth. Even Vietnam is becoming an ally given China's threat to its water rights. The twists in history are such fun to untangle. Most states do have the ability to "move on" but the problem in some areas of the globe is the inability for some "nations" to let go of the past and adopt a new perspective.

When are you going to stop reminding me how old I am? [:-]

[Treetop64]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Not really sure this means that WW2 is forgotten, just that the people and nations involved have (rightly) moved on, which is ideal and good! We don't want nations holding grudges against each other forever, lest we have wars forever.

Well someone needs to make the suggestion to the Chinese government, who for many years now have been going out of their way in agitating it's population in continually reminding them of their forerunner's treatment under Imperial Japanese occupation, as though it all happened yesterday.

[sanch]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Hi Sanch,
...
And somewhere in the middle of all those Slavic tribes there lies a Hungary - these tribes got here in the late 9th century. Having nothing in common with local tribes they built their state by subduing local populace and territorial expansion and settled up here.
...
We - Slovaks - may have not the best relations with Hungary (like the bridge you mentioned, or Nagymaros part of the Gabčíkovo-Nagymaros dam), but I hope we all are reasonable people here...[;)]

The museum in Budapest was quite good. It was in there that I learned that the Magyar tribes arrived from somewhere way to the East and carved a new home for themselves along the Danube. And also an overview of their subsequent history. The Ottomans, Austro-Hungarian empire, and so on.

And I found the Hungarian people to be generally quite friendly - no sense of animosity at all towards us Americans (as long as we paid in their currency or euros - they didn't care for the dollar at all). I'm certain that if I had gone to Slovakia (or Austria or Rumania) I would have found the people there to be generally friendly as well.

My point was there seems to be more friction between (at least some) European countries then there is in the US with its neighbors; and I had never experienced that sense of heightened friction before.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Not really sure this means that WW2 is forgotten, just that the people and nations involved have (rightly) moved on, which is ideal and good! We don't want nations holding grudges against each other forever, lest we have wars forever.

Well someone needs to make the suggestion to the Chinese government, who for many years now have been going out of their way in agitating it's population in continually reminding them of their forerunner's treatment under Imperial Japanese occupation, as though it all happened yesterday.

warspite1

Maybe if the Japanese said sorry it would help. Apologising - and meaning it - goes a long way to starting the healing process. When you get high ranking Japanese politicians and military personnel from time to time stating that the Japanese did nothing wrong, then sure, it's going to inflame feelings just a tad.

[jmalter]

It's my understanding that the German export subs have shorter range - more suitable for littoral ops in the North or Mediterranean Seas. The IJ export subs have longer range & carry more torps, better for sea-control ops in a larger theater, such as the Pacific. See this post:
http://thediplomat.com/2014/09/japan-en ... -offering/
by Robert Farley from LGM
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/

While WWII is far from forgotten, there's no reason why animosities from 70 years ago should influence today's weapons-procurement policies. Japan has been a reliable ally & mercantile partner for quite awhile.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Not really sure this means that WW2 is forgotten, just that the people and nations involved have (rightly) moved on, which is ideal and good! We don't want nations holding grudges against each other forever, lest we have wars forever.

Well someone needs to make the suggestion to the Chinese government, who for many years now have been going out of their way in agitating it's population in continually reminding them of their forerunner's treatment under Imperial Japanese occupation, as though it all happened yesterday.

warspite1

Maybe if the Japanese said sorry it would help. Apologising - and meaning it - goes a long way to starting the healing process. When you get high ranking Japanese politicians and military personnel from time to time stating that the Japanese did nothing wrong, then sure, it's going to inflame feelings just a tad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wa ... d_by_Japan

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Treetop64




Well someone needs to make the suggestion to the Chinese government, who for many years now have been going out of their way in agitating it's population in continually reminding them of their forerunner's treatment under Imperial Japanese occupation, as though it all happened yesterday.

warspite1

Maybe if the Japanese said sorry it would help. Apologising - and meaning it - goes a long way to starting the healing process. When you get high ranking Japanese politicians and military personnel from time to time stating that the Japanese did nothing wrong, then sure, it's going to inflame feelings just a tad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wa ... d_by_Japan

Beat me to it. Making assumptions is bad, mmkay.