Return of the Sheep! - JocMeister(A) vs. MrKane(J)

[DanSez]

He seems to be fond of running his fleet full ahead speed to sweep in like that.
[&:]

[ny59giants]

Tonight would include a few and a night away from the game before even thinking about what to do. Right now, day 2 will wipe out most of whats left afloat.

A significant factor is the number of A6M5s present vs A6M2s and the performance difference of them (new DBB data).

M2 - Spd 331 vs M5 Spd 351 = 20
M2 - Climb Rate of 2655 vs M5 of 3023 = 368

The Wildcat has a decent chance "IF" they have quality pilots vs M2, but the M5 is so much better and the need for the Hellcats shows up here.

F4F-4 - Spd is 318 vs Hellcat Spd is 375
F6F-3 - Climb Rate is 1730 vs Hellcat's of 2740

With similar gun values, these numbers here are important, IMO when it comes to CV vs CV battles.

[paullus99]

Crap, crap, crap....this is why I hate this JFB scenarios....throw in the towel Joc, no reason to be the whipping boy for the next two years.....I'm sorry.

[Cribtop]

Oddly enough, these results draw me to play the Allies. The challenge is appealing.

[Mike McCreery]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Oddly enough, these results draw me to play the Allies. The challenge is appealing.

If you have patience it is not much of a challenge at all

[njp72]

Absolutely the A6M5s was the critical difference in the battle.

Isn't that very early to have A6M5s? The allies aren't going to win carrier battles when the F4F vs A6M5 regardless of the other tactical factors.

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Tonight would include a few and a night away from the game before even thinking about what to do. Right now, day 2 will wipe out most of whats left afloat.

A significant factor is the number of A6M5s present vs A6M2s and the performance difference of them (new DBB data).

M2 - Spd 331 vs M5 Spd 351 = 20
M2 - Climb Rate of 2655 vs M5 of 3023 = 368

The Wildcat has a decent chance "IF" they have quality pilots vs M2, but the M5 is so much better and the need for the Hellcats shows up here.

F4F-4 - Spd is 318 vs Hellcat Spd is 375
F6F-3 - Climb Rate is 1730 vs Hellcat's of 2740

With similar gun values, these numbers here are important, IMO when it comes to CV vs CV battles.

[njp72]

Really, perhaps I need to try harder

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Oddly enough, these results draw me to play the Allies. The challenge is appealing.

If you have patience it is not much of a challenge at all

[Jorge_Stanbury]

But still puzzles me, how can you get A6M5s in Sep 42 with PDU OFF and Realistic R&D?

Was this a special scenario? Looking DBB Scen28: All KB fighters upgrade to A6M5 in 04/43...

I know that by significantly accelerating the Ruffe, then you can get A6M5 early, but shouldn't PDU OFF make the update impossible until 04/43 ?

[aleajactaest10044]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Disaster. [:(]

J:

Long time follower of your AAR's; mainly lurker on the forums. I appreciate your efforts (as well as your former nemesis Obvert's) with your AAR's. My apologies but this game is so skewed toward fantasy Japanese military performance that it serves more as a replay of a Harry Turtledove novel than an actual rendition of the Pacific War.

I think it needs serious revamping on the subject of China, Japanese ASW, and Japanese aircraft research and production.

Thanks again for playing the unplayable.

[Lokasenna]

I had A6M5s in 9/42 without any huge effort - only about 5-6 R&D factories from the Rufe line. It's more important to get the engine bonus, and harder to keep that going without big supply expenditures.

I'm curious to see if MrKane has any screenshots of the days leading up to the battle.

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Crap, crap, crap....this is why I hate this JFB scenarios....throw in the towel Joc, no reason to be the whipping boy for the next two years.....I'm sorry.

This isn't a "fanboi" scenario. I believe it's a scenario 1 base. I think there were just factors in this game, which I won't go into here, that led to this end result.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

But they are playing PDU OFF
shouldn't the historical date of upgrade (04/43) be required?


EDIT: After re-reading this thread, again and again tm.asp?m=3689727
I will answer my own question:
the historical date is irrelevant, the trick is to have enough planes available (in the correct order of course).
So as long as the Japanese player has enough planes (including any intermediate model), he can upgrade.

[poodlebrain]

You must have had a major failing of your searches to account for those results. The Japanese flew 823 sorties against your TFs and in defense of his TFs compared to 403 by the Allies. That is an incredible discrepancy given the deck space and aircraft differentials.

[aztez]

Ouch! That one did not work out and it hurts.

No shame in throwing towel if you feel like it. Things will not improve for additional year or so.

One thing I'am wondering how did he have his carriers in perfect spot to ambush your carrier fleets?

Did your carriers attack some IJN subs in the area? ...and what were those TF's detection levels?

Just a bit odd to me... oh well a said it turned ugly in this one.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: aztez



One thing I'am wondering how did he have his carriers in perfect spot to ambush your carrier fleets?

Did your carriers attack some IJN subs in the area? ...and what were those TF's detection levels?

Just a bit odd to me... oh well a said it turned ugly in this one.

The operation took too long. Mavis and Emilies were present at Tabiutea when he conquered it, so i guess those very same aircrafts had the chance to spot the incoming invasion at least from 20 hexes away.
Let's say more than 10 days from the first spotting to the actual battle... more than enough to move from truk in a good position.
Not enough to stop the landing and sink the transports withthe troops aboard, but enough to ambush the carriers on their way back...

Joc here took a too big risk. Allied operations, in this moment (mid 1942) should be as fast as possible. "GRab and go". Joc stayed there too much. He should have limited himself to Tabiutea only.. it would have been enough..

To get the A6M5 is very very easy, even with PDU ON and Realistic ON.

[aztez]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: aztez



One thing I'am wondering how did he have his carriers in perfect spot to ambush your carrier fleets?

Did your carriers attack some IJN subs in the area? ...and what were those TF's detection levels?

Just a bit odd to me... oh well a said it turned ugly in this one.

The operation took too long. Mavis and Emilies were present at Tabiutea when he conquered it, so i guess those very same aircrafts had the chance to spot the incoming invasion at least from 20 hexes away.
Let's say more than 10 days from the first spotting to the actual battle... more than enough to move from truk in a good position.
Not enough to stop the landing and sink the transports withthe troops aboard, but enough to ambush the carriers on their way back...

Joc here took a too big risk. Allied operations, in this moment (mid 1942) should be as fast as possible. "GRab and go". Joc stayed there too much. He should have limited himself to Tabiutea only.. it would have been enough..

To get the A6M5 is very very easy, even with PDU ON and Realistic ON.

Definately took a bit more time than it should. Those patrol aircraft should have been spotted either via DL's or operations reports.

I have been playing longtime and it is very rarely you wohn't notice that you have been spotted.

Would be intresting if Jocke had chance to run those turns from previous days [:)]

[Encircled]

Having thought about it, if Joc wants to continue, then he's going to have a real fight on his hands to hold on to Oz.

For that reason alone, I hope he continues!

[JocMeister]

Hey guys! [:)]

Well, after thinking about it for a day I just offered Tom my surrender. It was actually a pretty easy decision and I felt fairly certain about it right away when I saw the turn. In fact I have been thinking about it for quite some time now. But for Toms sake I wanted to really think it through as he wants to play on.

Bottom line is that I don´t have the motivation to. Tom will with 100% certainty win by AV on 1/1/43. Even if I could turn the battle around tomorrow (small chance but its there) its absolutely unavoidable. The reason is China. Even if Tom doesn´t manage to take out Chungking (highly unlikely) the VPs from the bombardments there and other troop losses is more then enough to put him well above 4:1 and closer to 5:1. And that is not taking into account the very likely naval losses due to happen tomorrow. Most likely Tom will end up around 6:1 or even 7:1 when 43 kicks in.

While it might sound foreign to many I don´t play to have "fun". I play to win. Thinking about it today I realized I can never play "for fun" again. I don´t find the game that fun really. What keeps me coming back to the game is the competition. This is the worlds most complicated chess game after all. [:)] For me everything in the game makes perfect sense that way. I don´t care if what happened in this game is "impossible". The beauty of it is measured in how well you play within the boundaries of the game and the pre agreed on HRs. Not what could or couldn´t have happened IRL. I don´t care about that. If I want to relive WW2 I will go read a book about it. [:)]

The Battle
So, going back to the battle. Actually everything is afloat. Only lost 3 APs which is a small miracle. [X(] Lex and Wasp can make full speed and can escape. Hornet might make it as she can make 16 knots. All the others are toast.

Interestingly enough I now have the KB only 4 hexes from 9 CLs, 8 BBs, 14 CAs and about 70 DDs....could have...could have...but most likely not! [:)]

Anyway its all moot by now. GJ hit the nail on the head. I messed up by going for Tarawa and put too much faith in CATs picking up Tom if he approached. I should have picked him up 2 turns ago though as he must have been well within range of either Kuria (12 CATS) or Johnson Island (12 CATS) but for some reason I didn´t. But as GJ says I should have landed on Tabi and then gotten the hell out. But I counted on the CATs picking him up and I (mistakenly) was pretty sure he was out of position with the KB refitting in the HI. Lesson learned!

Must admit I´m pretty bummed out about my DBs doing so poorly. No luck for poor Jocke. [:D]

[Cribtop]

Jocke, did you notice any DL on your TFs from enemy search planes?

[JocMeister]

Also should take this opportunity to congratulate Tom. [:)] I certainly got the game I was looking for. Tom played the game masterfully using all his advantages to the maximum while exploiting and taking advantage of every allied weaknesses.

While the Strat bombing in OZ was deviously clever I think where Tom really excelled was China. I know I played well there. Sure I made a few mistakes but nothing major. But he simply put on so much pressure everything just collapsed. I was never able to recover any losses and had to constantly throw everything I had into plugging holes all the time. Actually extremely fun...until supply runs out and everything just collapses.

He did everything right and I failed to stop him. That won him the game. He simply outplayed me. [:)]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Jocke, did you notice any DL on your TFs from enemy search planes?

Do you mean during the actual turn or earlier? While I was around the Gilberts he had a solid DL on me all the time. I think that dropped off when I left though.

EDIT: No DL on my CVs or SCTF for the last 2 turns before the battle.