How to take Greece?

[Orm]

9.3 and 19.2 might have some relevance here.


9.3 Compulsory declarations
Germany must declare war on Poland in the first impulse of any game that starts in Sep/Oct 1939. No major
power may make any other declaration of war in that impulse. France and the Commonwealth must declare war on
Germany on their first impulse after Germany has declared war on Poland. No major power may make any other
declarations of war in that impulse.

19.2 Entering the war
A minor country enters the war when:
• a major power declares war on it (it joins the other side); or
• it aligns with a major power (see 9.8).
If a minor country aligns with a major power, it is controlled by that major power. If an Axis major power
declares war on a minor country in the Americas, it may only align with the USA. When Germany makes her
compulsory declaration of war on Poland (see 9.3), it may only align with the Commonwealth.
In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major
power on the other side to align with it.If there is more than one eligible major power, offer the minor to the major power whose capital city is
closest to the minor’s capital (any home country in the case of the Commonwealth). If it declines, offer it to the next
closest, and so on.
If every eligible major power declines, the minor (and all its controlled minors and territories) is immediately
conquered by the attacking major power (see 13.7.1).
[China can not align any minor country - 2008 WIF Annual.]

[Joseignacio]

It seems 19.2 us definitive (Active Major Power). This is a problem with WIF, it seems every rule is in his place but when you get used to go through them you see there are things affecting and modifying seriously whta you just read, somewhere else. [:@]

[Centuur]

Well... There is always the distant possibility that the Japanese DoW the USSR in the third impulse (that's the second Axis impulse), making the USSR an active major power. So theoretically, this could happen... [:D]

[Extraneous]

9.3 Compulsory declarations are only in effect on the 1939 Sep/Oct turn during First and Second impulses.
 
So you see no problem with the following?
 
Third impulse (second Axis impulse)
Japan DoW's: Venezuela (an automatic conquest) and Persia which.
 
Venezuela is an automatic conquest because the USA is a neutral major power and "If an Axis major power declares war on a minor country in the Americas, it may only align with the USA".
 

20. The Axis declares war on: (if Japan declares war place USA entry marker in the USA (Ja) entry pool else place it in the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country (1 USA entry marker and a 20% chance of another will be added to the USA entry pool)
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland (There is a 80% chance of a USA entry marker will be added to the USA entry pool)
Other minor (There is a 30% chance of a USA entry marker will be added to the USA entry pool)

 

Persia
A neutral Persia must supply the Commonwealth with 1 of its oil resources each turn.
 
Venezuela
A neutral Venezuela must supply the CW with half its oil and the USA with its remaining oil each turn.

 
Not a bad price for removing from the Allies:
3x USA oil in Venezuela
3x CW oil in Venezuela
1x CW oil in Persia
 
Considering that the USSR now cannot assist Persia since it would be an Allied minor.
 
Unless of course the USSR meets foreign troop commitments or DoW's Japan.
 
 
 

[paulderynck]

The provision for Venezuela is an exception. So is the alignment of Poland. The very next paragraph states: "In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it.

So Venezuela aligns with the US which likely will get forces there first. The US gets all 6 oil and needs to work on the US Entry option for lending to western allies, which will now come sooner due to the extra chits for the unwise Japanese DoW.

Persia can align with the CW and then the CW gets 3 oil instead of 1. Such an early DoW by Japan on Persia likely would mean CW forces would get there first or Japan invading with Divs from the 2-box which is quite risky. Persia could also align with France, but this is not recommended.

But going back to the USSR Div in Antwerp, it presents zero problem for Germany because of this from the MSoW rules. (Actually when I see SoW, I think "Statement of Work".):
"A unit may not enter or attack a hex (or units therein) controlled by a major power on the other side that it isn't at war with. However it can attack a hex controlled by an enemy major power or minor country even if the hex contains units it is not at war with."

Germany would be at war with Belgium and not the USSR and so it can attack any hex in Belgium, no matter whose units are in it; without having to DoW the USSR.

[Centuur]

Here is RAW:

If an Axis major power declares war on a minor country on the
American map, it may only align with the USA.
When Germany makes her compulsory declaration of war on Poland
(see 9.3), it may only align with the Commonwealth.
Vichy may not be declared to control a minor if the USA and
Germany are at war.
China may not align any minor country in any World in Flames
scenario (exceptions: DoD and PatiF)
In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a
minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align
with it.

[Numdydar]

There are a lot of minors in the Americas. So if Japan declared war on all of them, would not all of them be conquered automatically since they cannot align with the US?

Also what about the Monroe Doctrine? That should automatically cause the US to go to war versus having to wait.

This seems a very bizarre way for the game to work if this is true. Has anyone actually tried this?

[paulderynck]

They would all align with the US as per posts 85 and 86 and the Axis would be doomed by an extremely early US entry.

If you mean trying it in MWiF, that might be an interesting thing to try.

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

There are a lot of minors in the Americas. So if Japan declared war on all of them, would not all of them be conquered automatically since they cannot align with the US?

Also what about the Monroe Doctrine? That should automatically cause the US to go to war versus having to wait.

This seems a very bizarre way for the game to work if this is true. Has anyone actually tried this?

I've always thought the game could use a Monroe Doctrine rule actually. There is an exploit with a popular alternative Vichy France rules system that can allow the Japanese to start up some adventures in the Americas...

[Lord Drakken]

Wow this thread went all over the place. Just one quick note on the taking Greece so you can align Yugoslavia. This can only happen when you have aligned or control Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Athens, Italy, and Albania. The difficulty here is aligning both Romania/Bulgaria.

Romania/Bulgaria can both be aligned to the axis if: (1) You deny USSR border claims and are able to force a peace in the USSR's war on Romania. The Russian player has to be a total newb to not get a unit into Romania and continue the war. If I'm playing someone that can't properly claim Bessarabia, then I've already won the game.

(2) The second way to align them both is to allow the USSR border claim. You get Bulgaria right away, but then you have to wait until war with the USSR to align Romania. This will happen either in the second half of 1941 or 1942. I think that is too long to wait.

I therefore prepare to attack Yugoslavia in the Sept/Oct 39 turn. This forces the Russians to claim the borderlands. If the Russians haven't set up to claim Bessarabia then I DOW Yugoslavia and align Romania. The Russians are never able to make the border claim and I am allowed to align Hungary in the next impulse. Once I control Belgrade I get Bulgaria aligned as well.

What I lose is the Yugoslavian units (they have some decent ones) and the 2 factories.

What I gain is a much easier campaign with fewer losses. Greece is easy with Yugoslavia out of the way. No worries about the Commonwealth supporting Yugo this early. You can easily stop the CW in Greece now that you have a country to walk through on your way to the eastern med. I get the 2 Yugoslavian resources 2-3 years earlier than trying to align them. Most importantly the early alignment of romania and the ability to set up German units there ahead of Barbarossa is killer. The USSR loses their ability to defend the Dneister river line because German units can set up right next to it and ignore it on the surprise impulse.

If the USSR player is set up for Bessarabia I will usually allow the claim and then DOW Yugoslavia in Nov/Dec so I can align Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria. Most of the same benefits but alas I lose the border hexes.

[Centuur]

I prefer to try to get Yugoslavia to become Axis. Why? Partisans! This is one minor which you need to put quite a garrison in to prevent those nasty guys from appearing. Sure, you can use other minor units for that, but it takes a lot of units to make sure they don't appear. And Yugoslavia has an HQ. This means supply for more Axis units in Russia.

[Grotius]

So Peter, does that mean you have the Axis attack Greece early on? And then you have to wait for war with the Soviets to align Romania, which is a precondition for aligning Yugoslavia, right? You don't mind waiting?

I'm just now completing the conquest of Yugoslavia in my game in March/April 1941, but I'm such a newb that I managed to lose a couple Hungarian units in the process -- and the turn just ended. So I've slowed down my Barbarossa. I guess I should've attacked Yugoslavia earlier.

[Centuur]

No, I don't mind waiting at all. I have to wait anyway and those two resources are going to cost me a lot of units to get out of Yugoslavia. It's a partisan nightmare in those mountains. Grabbing Yugoslavia isn't easy also. Might cost me a unit. Also: Germany is always short on land units, since it has to garrison all kind of places against partisans and Allied invasions. The Yugo army can be used for that too...

I want that HQ and the Yugo factories. I want it all...

[Grotius]

And, to circle back to earlier arguments against attacking Greece: what about the many Greek convoys? Do you port attack them, or just build extra U-boats for later?

[paulderynck]

The best time to get any of the (originally) neutral convoys is in a port attack phase of the surprise turn. They are Priority 1 on my target list.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

A lot depends on the overall situation in the Med. I'll usually only commit to the port strike (and the limiting factor, for me, is actions, not firepower most of the time) if I think they have a good chance of getting away. Putting a nav or two in the Eastern Med often can achieve the same objective, and more cheaply, but if the British say have a couple of carriers around, then it's risky to stick your Gabbiano out in the 4 box.


So, lots of variables, unfortunately.

[Lord Drakken]

I go for the port attack to try and sink a lot of those Greek Conv. That surprise impulse port attack can be awesome. However it all depends on the surprise roll.

I agree with Centuur's analysis. He has some very valid points. The Yugo HQ is great to have. The Yugoslavian partisans are a pain in the ass. Those 2 factories would be nice to have in the late game.

I find all of those negatives together are not nearly as important as the single most important benefit of the early Yugo strategy, being able to set up early in Romania for Barbarossa. Breaking the Dneister river line on the surprise impulse can be devastating to the USSR defense. In my personal experience this can often be the difference between breaking across the Dneiper in the first year of war with USSR and not. Without an aligned Romania, I can stop the Germans at the Dneiper or just behind it 75% of the time. With an aligned Romania I can stop the Germans maybe 25% of the time. The difference in my opinion is drastic.

You really gain only one resource with my early Yugoslavia method. The USSR will decrease one trade resource for each aligned minor Romania, Hungary, and Bulgaria. I do not align Bulgaria for a while because of this effect. So I lose 2 resources there. However, I would have lost one to the USSR Bessarabia claim anyway. I gain a net of 1 with the 2 Yugo resources.

The larger gain with production is the two added factories from Romania and Hungary from the first turn of the game! In the 2-3 years before Barbarossa these can add up to 25-43 points of production gain vs aligning them later in the game. Granted I do lose the 2 Yugoslavian factories post Barbarossa but in my opinion this game is won or lost by the axis within one year of the start of Barbarossa. Late production doesn't have as much weight in my thinking.

Also the Greek campaign can be very difficult without attacking through Yugoslavia and Bulgaria. This can really mess you up if a good CW player drops in those 4 corps for allied support. With German units at the Greek's northern border, I just see no way to defend Greece. If you do not want to align Yugoslavia, you might not even want to attack Greece.

Just worth a mention. The early Yugo strategy cannot be blocked. According to the rules Germany can always declare war on Yugoslavia and align Romania before the USSR can claim the borderlands. This is due to the limitations on war declarations in the first two impulses. Is this gamey? Perhaps. I would not say early German involvement in these countries is ahistorical.

[brian brian]

You can conquer Yugoslavia without aligning Hungary. Just send von Leeb down there with a few 4 movement INF, and let him slowly ooze through the Yugoslavian defenses, such as they are. The Rumanians walk in to Serbia from the east; though they are out of supply the whole time, they can secure the transport of the resources out, and their own LND2 and a long range German LND3 can keep the Yugoslavians from getting too frisky. Hungary gains you a factory but also lets the Russians keep a resource, and into 1940 the Germans would have to use oil to put that factory in production. You also avoid a 30% US Entry chit roll - the more of those you roll, the more you regret it in 1945.

I like the No Bessarabia strategy even when I plan to attack the Commonwealth primarily - you get the two resources, one on each of the first two turns, and you make the Allies think you are focused on a 1941 Barbarossa for a few turns at least.

I think it is far more gamey to align Yugoslavia, especially to Italy. I don't think the Serbs would have gone for that, ever. You could say the Croats and other portions would align, but the Serbian portion would be conquered, not supplying troops and industrial production to the Axis. Yugoslavia essentially broke up in WWII, and only the brutality of the Germans and Croats enabled Tito to put it back together again.

I think it is probably also gamey for the Germans to ignore provisions of the pact with the USSR just a few weeks after they sign it. Stalin got Bessarabia in that pact, I believe. But then how much of Bessarabia did Stalin occupy? I've always been fascinated by the "Schwimm" Panzers. The one place they were used outside of the proving grounds was to cross the Dnester - and this was the frontier, crossed at dawn on June 22, 1941. Did perhaps Stalin not occupy Bukovina (the Cernauti hex, I think?) ?? Maybe this was more on the upper reaches of the Dnestier on the Slovakian/Polish frontier. ? (The somewhat new counter for these in the games only helps you with invasions, not river crossings)

I wonder if the historical Germans could have deployed a robust Panzer Army in Rumania in early 1941 the way any average player of World in Flames will. That would have been a large logistical undertaking I think.

[Dabrion]

Aka "No-Bessarabia Gambit". Many house rules have been proposed to fix it.. no single one is agreed upon. I think the best one is to reduce the pact by one oil an one resource or something along those lines, as in essence Germany is not holding up their side of the bargain and RU would certainly want to see that punished.

[Centuur]

Ever read the text of that pact? You be amazed if you read it. It's really, really short:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1939pact.html