OT: Independence

[dr.hal]

Really? Well if you are in a pub in Scotland watching a football match between England and some other country (IF the pub would allow its clientele to watch such a game) and happen to make negative remarks about those "British" football fans, you will be either dead or severely bruised within minutes.

[LoBaron]

Independent of what I personally think about the outcome of the vote - my sincere respect and cogratulations to the people of Scotland and the United Kingdom.

This must be an emotional topic for all of you. While I lack detailed knowledge how this critical decision and the path leading to it has been treated in your local rainbow press, from an outsider observing point of view the campaigns, as well as the vote and the reaction to the outcome, were impressively calm and considerate.

No dead bodies, no kids without parents, no bombs, no destroyed homes, no burnt bridges, no irrepairable insults besides the usual political babble. Nothing but some egoes hurt.

In the times we live in that day should stand as a leading example how such topics should be handled in the 21st century .´

Thank you for this!


[&o][&o][&o]

[Lecivius]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

Another question, and one I can now ask without going into politics since the vote is in and the decision has been made, is has there ever been a break up where a portion of a country went it's own way and made a success of it? I'm not talking colonies that became there own countries, but actual schisms within a governmental body that turned out better than conditions were previous to the break up?

I can think of some similar schisms, but I would value your thoughts.

The Czech Republic comes to mind after separating from Slovakia. Don't know how Slovakia is doing.

Good call! Slovakia is doing very well for themselves, at first glance. Thanks [;)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Really? Well if you are in a pub in Scotland watching a football match between England and some other country (IF the pub would allow its clientele to watch such a game) and happen to make negative remarks about those "British" football fans, you will be either dead or severely bruised within minutes.

warspite1

LOL I don't mean they don't know the difference between England and Scotland!

What I mean for example are things like:

- What countries makes up the British Isles? (Geographic)
- How many countries in Great Britain?
- What countries make up the United Kingdom?
- What is the status of the four Home Nation countries? E.g. Kingdom, Principality and Province.
-

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: Endy

The funny thing for me was when I heard that the secession supporters wanted to declare Scotland as nuke free country and forbid it's usage or even storing on their territory (even as part of Nato etc.), even intending to put that into the new constitution. I don't know how real it'd be that the UK would share nukes with them but come on, to willingly resign from owning nukes is a level of naivety or misunderstanding of how the world works I can't even comprehend. You need only to look at the recent Ukraine case to see what a great deal they made giving away their part of ex-USSR nuclear arsenal for some guarantees for their territorial integrity. Look how that turned out...

Unless of course UK would not give them any nukes anyway so that was merely an empty declaration so that they could later say "meh, we didn't want them anyway"

The main UK nuclear sub base is Faslane on the Gairloch. The US also had a Polaris base very close on the Holy Loch but that closed. (I looked it up 1961-1992). Both are classed as deep water lochs with easy access to the Atlantic. The geology of the area is also suitable for the storage of nuclear weapons (possible waste as well). Been a bone of contention for years with many a Scot (since 1961) and as to what would have happen had the vote been 'yes', I know not but it would have been acrimonious.

[mind_messing]

BTW, was watching the Scottish vote. Didn't think they should break away. The secessionists are utter statists and Scotts would rue the day they went off by themselves, but hey, their choice. I believe in rational suicide. It improves the gene pool when the idiots actually do the deed. Good to see that most Scotts are are brighter than than that.

I'm sure the Scots are better off without your insightful political commentary on the matter, that much is certain.

You may have disagreed with those wanting to change the political system in their country, but don't get the impression that it makes them idiots.

Someone having different views from you does not make them an idiot. That's a truth that you should remember when you're posting on this fourm - it might be a better place if you did.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

BTW, was watching the Scottish vote. Didn't think they should break away. The secessionists are utter statists and Scotts would rue the day they went off by themselves, but hey, their choice. I believe in rational suicide. It improves the gene pool when the idiots actually do the deed. Good to see that most Scotts are are brighter than than that.

I'm sure the Scots are better off without your insightful political commentary on the matter, that much is certain.

You may have disagreed with those wanting to change the political system in their country, but don't get the impression that it makes them idiots.

Someone having different views from you does not make them an idiot. That's a truth that you should remember when you're posting on this fourm - it might be a better place if you did.

warspite1

+1 that was totally uncalled for.

Scotts - didn't they make Porridge Oats?

[pontiouspilot]

We have been through this BS with Quebec 2 times with a 3rd always threatened. Frankly it has been here used as a blackmail device for years. Most of us out west would pay them to go! I hope the Scots are able to extract as much for their "NO" .

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

[

Scotts - didn't they make Porridge Oats?

They make Miracle-Gro

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Someone having different views from you does not make them an idiot.

Wasn't the entire effort to break away driven by the lefts anger over a conservative government in London? I could perhaps understand the Scotts wanting to break away due to national pride or heritage reasons, but being unwilling to live with election results strikes me as a little immature and given the damage it could potentially have caused the Scottish economy had the EU refused them entry, then it would have been a pretty dumb thing to do.

In a free society you spend your energy to change future elections by swaying those who disagree with you to your side. Throwing a tantrum and leaving that society is anything but an intelligent response.

I know very little about the political infighting that lead to the effort to break away, but one news commentator here in the US phrased it like this, “Scotts hate conservatives, in fact they hate them so much they want to leave the UK.” Obviously given the outcome of the election the commentator was speaking out of her ass, but the impression give to us in the US was the left was angry and they didn’t like the fact a conservative government was in power.

Jim

[JeffroK]

From the heart, and my long lost ancestors coming from Beith, I hoped for a resounding yes vote.

But in reality it would be a disaster for Scotland and a bloody pain for the remainder of the UK.

I would like to see the UK start to make some of the changes that would allow this for Scotland, Wales and Nthn Ireland in 20-30 years.

Mind messing, can you explain why Glasgow was in the YES camp but Edinburgh massively in the NO?? I also thought there would be more support for YES in the rural electorates?

WARSPITE
What I mean for example are things like:

- What countries makes up the British Isles? (Geographic) TWO, Eire & UK
- How many countries in Great Britain? 3/4
- What countries make up the United Kingdom? Its The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Nthn Ireland, ONE.
- What is the status of the four Home Nation countries? E.g. Kingdom, Principality and Province. Occupied territories.

[warspite1]

Never mind

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Many of my students, when asked what is the difference between "England", "Great Britain" and the "United Kingdom", they say that all three reference the same thing......Oh well.

Often misunderstood even by those living here. One of the things that really gets up the Scots nose is when they are referred to as English when they represent Great Britain. Used to happen a lot but not so much now.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Many of my students, when asked what is the difference between "England", "Great Britain" and the "United Kingdom", they say that all three reference the same thing......Oh well.

Often misunderstood even by those living here. One of the things that really gets up the Scots nose is when they are referred to as English when they represent Great Britain. Used to happen a lot but not so much now.

warspite1

See post 20.

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I know very little about the political infighting that lead to the effort to break away, but one news commentator here in the US phrased it like this, “Scotts hate conservatives, in fact they hate them so much they want to leave the UK.” Obviously given the outcome of the election the commentator was speaking out of her ass, but the impression give to us in the US was the left was angry and they didn’t like the fact a conservative government was in power.

Jim

This is true. A very much unpublished fact is the English are not too enamoured with the SNP (Scottish Nationalist Party) particularly their view on what they refer to as the 'English Establishment' in London and that it is not democratic because they are no conservative MPs in Scotland.

They never mention the fact that the other major political party in the UK, the Labour party, has huge support in Scotland and it is often that vote that makes the difference between a Conservative led government and a Labour one. We do not directly elect the Prime Minister (PM), whoever is leading the party at the time of the election becomes the PM and in the previous government this was Tony Blair with Gordon Brown, a Scot, as his deputy. When Blair resigned we got Brown and to many English this was not acceptable, not because he was Scotsman but because he was not leader at the election. A few held the other view which is actually no different to the SNPs undemocratic view that about the 'English establishment'.

You might get some idea about regional politics in the UK from this small map of the 2005 elections. Blue-Cons, Red-Lab, Orange-LibDems, Bright Yellow-SNP. You can see from the map the huge area of the UK (all in England) controlled by the Cons in blue and that despite the spanking received at the election.

Do not confuse area with population density though, politics in the UK is very much about upper class v working class, countryside v city the haves v have nots. Breaking this down into a political parties Conservatives v the rest exclusive of the Libdems, I'm not sure what they stand for.

Wiki details for anybody interested can be found here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kin ... tion,_2005

[warspite1]

Deleted.

[Encircled]

There is some hope that the overall result will result in a kind of devolved govt for the whole of the UK. Can't see it though

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

There is some hope that the overall result will result in a kind of devolved govt for the whole of the UK. Can't see it though

Has too after the big three promised Scottish reform. They can't do it there and not elsewhere.

[tocaff]

It's nice to see that change, or not, can be brought about through the ballot box. Eons ago I had a history prof who insisted that change came about through violence. He made a very strong case supporting this.

[Encircled]

Has too after the big three promised Scottish reform. They can't do it there and not elsewhere.

They can if all three parties don't agree on it. I wouldn't trust any of them to run a bath