Corsair vs, Jug

[sandlance]

One small tidbit not mentioned the P-51 cost $58k at intro which dropped to $50k later. The P-47 stayed a steady $115k through out its production run. Coupled with higher maintence (turb-super charger)is one reason the P-51 was chosen over the P-47.

[Big B]

All true enough... and my dad was rifleman with the 5th Regimental Combat Team in Korea in 1952 - he talked of how those Marine Corsair pilots would come in low and drop bombs and napalm right over the front lines - he was impressed.

My point however, abut using F4U's in Korea (as opposed to the absence of P-47's in the ground attack role in Korea), was that the USAF had the money and resources to obtain and employ modern jet aircraft in the fighter-bomber role early on.

It wasn't that the F4U proved a better ground attack aircraft than the P-47 (the original question) ... it was a matter of the USAF having the resources to obtain better more modern equipment, which the Marines (and apparently the Navy) lacked. It is worth noting that as soon as the Navy got the A4 Skyhawk, they never went back to F4U's (though the venerable Douglas A-1 Skyraider soldiered on into Vietnam in a limited role).

It is just my opinion at this point - but I believe had the Navy had enough F9F Panthers, F7U Cutlasses, and FJ2/3 Fury's in its inventory by 1951 - the F4U Corsair would have been withdrawn fairly rapidly...

B

ORIGINAL: wdolson

In Korea the Navy was still operating F4Us in the land attack role. I think they eventually got replaced with Skyraiders, but early on there were only a few Skyraider squadrons in service. The early jets were very temperamental and unreliable. Something proven like the Corsair filled out the air group with something that could keep flying day in and day out.

My mother had a cousin who was a Panther pilot on the Oriskany. He said his berth was near the stern and he never got any sleep after about 5 AM. That's when they started operating the Corsairs. Instead of putting them on the catapult like the jets, they had the Corsairs do a rolling take off from the rear deck. The jet guys didn't have to report to work until the sun was well above the horizon.

Found this, carrier air units of Korea:
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/koreaob.htm

Looks like F4Us were there to the end.

Bill

[wdolson]

The P-51 and F4U stayed in active inventories after the war and more went into storage as the best piston engined fighter the respective services had. Most other aircraft were scrapped with only a few examples surviving. While the P-47 was a good ground attack plane, the Air Force didn't really want to support that role after the war and they retired many of their aircraft. The B-29 was reclassified as a "medium bomber" when the B-36 entered service. The attack bomber designation was dropped entirely. A lot of A-26s were brand new at the end of the war and many went into storage, but the thought was probably towards flogging them off to other countries.

Because so many F-51s (re-designated in 1947), F4U, and A-26s were in storage or active duty with second line units (like national guard units) and some F4U still on the carriers, they could be activated for Korea. There were a few F-47 active service as squadron hacks or on special duties, but there were not enough left in inventory to fill out a squadron.

The P-47 would have been better than the F-51 in the land attack role in Korea, but short sightedness had scrapped them all in a fit of "we don't do that any more".

Bill

[Big B]

Yep, and it's fair to say "you fight with what you have...not with what you would like"

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The P-51 and F4U stayed in active inventories after the war and more went into storage as the best piston engined fighter the respective services had. Most other aircraft were scrapped with only a few examples surviving. While the P-47 was a good ground attack plane, the Air Force didn't really want to support that role after the war and they retired many of their aircraft. The B-29 was reclassified as a "medium bomber" when the B-36 entered service. The attack bomber designation was dropped entirely. A lot of A-26s were brand new at the end of the war and many went into storage, but the thought was probably towards flogging them off to other countries.

Because so many F-51s (re-designated in 1947), F4U, and A-26s were in storage or active duty with second line units (like national guard units) and some F4U still on the carriers, they could be activated for Korea. There were a few F-47 active service as squadron hacks or on special duties, but there were not enough left in inventory to fill out a squadron.

The P-47 would have been better than the F-51 in the land attack role in Korea, but short sightedness had scrapped them all in a fit of "we don't do that any more".

Bill

[geofflambert]

Very good discussion here, thank you. I'm going to say something that might seem obvious, but it's at least lucky. I think the P-47 is the best fighter we had to face the Me-109, FW-190 and even the Me-262. The P-51 was a great plane but I vote P-47. Against the Japanese I think the F4U was superior. We got lucky or something.

[Big B]

I agree pretty much geofflambert

I'll finish my diarrhea-mouthed egotistical rambling with a quick assertion (I can hear the collective "thank God and shut up") ... if I were an American fighter pilot in the Second World War - I think I would be thankful for flying a 'Jug' over any other aircraft the USA employed...seeing how I would very much like to survive....

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Very good discussion here, thank you. I'm going to say something that might seem obvious, but it's at least lucky. I think the P-47 is the best fighter we had to face the Me-109, FW-190 and even the Me-262. The P-51 was a great plane but I vote P-47. Against the Japanese I think the F4U was superior. We got lucky or something.

[witpqs]

if I were an American fighter pilot in the Second World War - I think I would be thankful for flying a 'Jug' over any other aircraft the USA employed...seeing how I would very much like to survive....

A friend of mine called Robert Johnson (featured the story mentioned earlier) "Uncle Bob" as he was much older, although technically a cousin. He told me that when he was a small boy he had a few occasions to sit at Uncle Bob's knee and listen to stories of his experiences.

It's a pretty good bet that he got to do that because the P-47 was the beast of a plane that it was!

[PaxMondo]

In game, I hate Corsairs, but am just scared silly of the TBolts.

There, how's that for a succinct comparison? [:D]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: sandlance

One small tidbit not mentioned the P-51 cost $58k at intro which dropped to $50k later. The P-47 stayed a steady $115k through out its production run. Coupled with higher maintence (turb-super charger)is one reason the P-51 was chosen over the P-47.

This is an excellent point. In war the power that economizes and refines production usually is the winner. This probably explains it better than anything else. The P38L was an excellent fighter but expensive as hell. Why build it when you can build a mustang?

[geofflambert]

Now, why not consider the Typhoon/Tempest against the T-Bolt. It will lose but its (their) value should not be underestimated. Maybe theres a lesson here: that fighter names should begin with the letter T.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: witpqs
A friend of mine called Robert Johnson (featured the story mentioned earlier) "Uncle Bob" as he was much older, although technically a cousin. He told me that when he was a small boy he had a few occasions to sit at Uncle Bob's knee and listen to stories of his experiences.

It's a pretty good bet that he got to do that because the P-47 was the beast of a plane that it was!

First I thought you are talking about Robert S. Johnson. Would have fit with Tbolts as a topic... [X(][:D]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: witpqs
A friend of mine called Robert Johnson (featured the story mentioned earlier) "Uncle Bob" as he was much older, although technically a cousin. He told me that when he was a small boy he had a few occasions to sit at Uncle Bob's knee and listen to stories of his experiences.

It's a pretty good bet that he got to do that because the P-47 was the beast of a plane that it was!

First I thought you are talking about Robert S. Johnson. Would have fit with Tbolts as a topic... [X(][:D]

You lost me... Maybe I worded that poorly. His "Uncle", actually older cousin, was the famous P-47 ace.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: witpqs
A friend of mine called Robert Johnson (featured the story mentioned earlier) "Uncle Bob" as he was much older, although technically a cousin. He told me that when he was a small boy he had a few occasions to sit at Uncle Bob's knee and listen to stories of his experiences.

It's a pretty good bet that he got to do that because the P-47 was the beast of a plane that it was!

First I thought you are talking about Robert S. Johnson. Would have fit with Tbolts as a topic... [X(][:D]

You lost me... Maybe I worded that poorly. His "Uncle", actually older cousin, was the famous P-47 ace.

witpqs, that baboon copyrighted his selfies, you must cease and desist using them. [:-]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: LoBaron




First I thought you are talking about Robert S. Johnson. Would have fit with Tbolts as a topic... [X(][:D]

You lost me... Maybe I worded that poorly. His "Uncle", actually older cousin, was the famous P-47 ace.

witpqs, that baboon copyrighted his selfies, you must cease and desist using them. [:-]

1) He's not a baboon. 2) He lost in court. No copyright! 3)

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Now, why not consider the Typhoon/Tempest against the T-Bolt. It will lose but its (their) value should not be underestimated. Maybe theres a lesson here: that fighter names should begin with the letter T.

Like t'hurricane, t'spitfire[:D]

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: crsutton
This is an excellent point. In war the power that economizes and refines production usually is the winner. This probably explains it better than anything else. The P38L was an excellent fighter but expensive as hell. Why build it when you can build a mustang?

5th AF pilots flying P-38s in the Pacific were racking up big scores. I believe the P-38J/L still had better range than the P-51 and definitely did it with a better margin of error. Having two engines when flying long over water trips was a solace to the pilots. The Twin Mustang was built to try and get some of the long range performance of the P-38 combined with the combat abilities of the P-51. It arrived too late and the technology was moving in a different direction when it did, but it did make a good night fighter in Korea.

The US probably would have been better served if P-40 production was replaced with P-51 production by late 1943.

Bill

[sandlance]

The P-51 and F4U stayed in active inventories after the war and more went into storage as the best piston engined fighter the respective services had. Most other aircraft were scrapped with only a few examples surviving. While the P-47 was a good ground attack plane, the Air Force didn't really want to support that role after the war and they retired many of their aircraft. The B-29 was reclassified as a "medium bomber" when the B-36 entered service. The attack bomber designation was dropped entirely. A lot of A-26s were brand new at the end of the war and many went into storage, but the thought was probably towards flogging them off to other countries.

Because so many F-51s (re-designated in 1947), F4U, and A-26s were in storage or active duty with second line units (like national guard units) and some F4U still on the carriers, they could be activated for Korea. There were a few F-47 active service as squadron hacks or on special duties, but there were not enough left in inventory to fill out a squadron.

The P-47 would have been better than the F-51 in the land attack role in Korea, but short sightedness had scrapped them all in a fit of "we don't do that any more".



I agree with the P-47 being a better ground attack aircraft than the P/F-51. In the immediate post war the Army Air Force got rid of nearly everthing they didn"t need. The P-38's,P-47's were all maintenance intensive and surplus to there needs. That is why You can count the survivors of the 2 aircraft can be counted on the fingers of one hand. One P-38 was recovered from under the Greenland ice cap and restored.

[wdolson]

P-38s and P-47s have survived in a little better numbers than counting on one hand, unless you have massively deformed hands. I count 14 airworthy P-47s and 7 airworthy P-38ss on the Warbird Registry. There are many more on static display in museums around the world. http://www.warbirdregistry.org/

However, there are hundreds of P-51s still flying, though there aren't as many flyable F4U still out there. There are still quite a few Corsairs flyable though. A lot of the P-47s that survived were sold to Latin American air forces after the war and survived long enough for people to want them again.

I once talked to a docent at the Chapman Fighter Museum (collection now owned by the Museum of Flight in Seattle). He was a USAAF pilot but came out of training too late to see any action. Instead, his first and pretty much only flight assignment was flying brand new, factory fresh P-40s to the scrapyard in Kingman, AZ.

My father said he would have liked to buy some surplus aircraft after the war. He said you could get a P-47 for less than the cost of a car, though he didn't have the storage space. (At one point he and some friends owned a Rolls Royce that had belonged to a silent movie star, but they got to a point where they couldn't store it any longer and had to sell it. The car is now in some big collection in Nevada.) One of the few people who foresaw the future for warbirds was Edward Maloney who saved a lot of historic aircraft, mostly for the movie industry. At one point he had the only Me-262 in private hands.

Bill

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: witpqs
A friend of mine called Robert Johnson (featured the story mentioned earlier) "Uncle Bob" as he was much older, although technically a cousin. He told me that when he was a small boy he had a few occasions to sit at Uncle Bob's knee and listen to stories of his experiences.

It's a pretty good bet that he got to do that because the P-47 was the beast of a plane that it was!

First I thought you are talking about Robert S. Johnson. Would have fit with Tbolts as a topic... [X(][:D]

You lost me... Maybe I worded that poorly. His "Uncle", actually older cousin, was the famous P-47 ace.

This justifies another [X(]

[AW1Steve]

One point on the Coursair...it was still in production in 1953 (The A-1U version--pure attack bomber).