NFC East Slapdown: NY59Giants (A) vs 1EyedJack & Rysyonok (J) - BTS

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Constitution Class BC (just in case you're not familiar with her)

WTH?? The French BC 13" guns have a range 10,000 greater than the 16"/50s of the Constitutions, and greater penetrating power too!

[ny59giants]

Any questions about the BB/BCs should go to JuanG as he did them, I think. Right John 3rd??

[John 3rd]

Ain't been touched by me...

Either they are stock, worked over by Skyland, or Juans.

[ny59giants]

Date: 42 Jan 5th -
I now hate ground combat in China. [:@] The "Panzer Corp" is wearing down my troops 3 SE of Ankang quickly.

Key: TT = Torpedo; bb = ground bombardment; c = casualties; b = base hits; s = supply hits; r = runway hits; p = port hits; f = fuel hits; AV = Assault Value; DC = Depth Charged; (*) = destroyed aircraft; If odds are italics, they are the Allies; BG = Bomber Group of 48 planes (4 x 12 bomber squadrons); FG fighter group = 25 fighter planes if American

Landings:

CVs:
KB1 & 2 - MIA - PBYs at extended range (20 hexes) from Canton Island and Johnson Island cannot find them!!
KB3 - Babeldoab
KB4 - MIA
CVEs - MIA

Allied Mini-Death Star - Arrived at Soerabaja. The few ships with System Damage above 4 are disbanded in port.

Subs:

India/Burma:
Rangoon -
Pegu - 1 NE of bases sees the Burma battalion wiped out by 55th Cav Rgt & 112 Inf Rgt

China: I'm joining the chorus.... I hate China!!
Trail to Ankang - 3 hexes to SE sees the bombers softening up the troops - 31 Nates with 6 Ann & 3 Sonia.

Ground combat at 83,45 (near Nanyang)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 43517 troops, 466 guns, 572 vehicles, Assault Value = 1415

Defending force 35965 troops, 229 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 759

Japanese adjusted assault: 760

Allied adjusted defense: 1126

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
887 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 35 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 58 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Vehicles lost 175 (33 destroyed, 142 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
2548 casualties reported
Squads: 17 destroyed, 305 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 23 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Guns lost 31 (7 destroyed, 24 disabled)

Assaulting units:
9th Armored Car Co
5th Tank Regiment
6th Division
10th Tank Regiment
3rd Division
23rd Tank Regiment
9th Tank Regiment
5th Armored Car Co
13th Tank Regiment
13th Division
3rd Tank Regiment
11th Tank Regiment
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
1st Mortar Battalion
11th Army
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion

Defending units:
2nd Chinese Corps
45th Chinese Corps
67th Chinese Corps
30th Chinese Corps
8th New Chinese Corps

I cannot get out of this hex fast enough nor do I have enough troops behind it to slow down his march to Ankang. The slow trickle that will be coming from the defense in front of Sian may become a flood in the days ahead towards Ankang. If I made one mistake in my initial retreat from the clear terrain, it was not sending enough troops to the trail leading up to Ankang. Cribtop was able to exploit it by being able to shift troops down here vs trying to smash his way to Sian after capture of Nanyang.

Malaya: -
Singapore - 40 Oscars with 18 Sally
Kuala Lumpur - Crushed here!!

Ground combat at Kuala Lumpur (49,79)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 55918 troops, 507 guns, 253 vehicles, Assault Value = 1746

Defending force 1888 troops, 5 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 19

Japanese adjusted assault: 1393

Allied adjusted defense: 1

Japanese assault odds: 1393 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Kuala Lumpur !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), morale(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
143 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 14 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
2699 casualties reported
Squads: 62 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 166 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 3 (3 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 3

Assaulting units:
55th Infantry Regiment
4th Division
41st Infantry Regiment
5th Division
15th Ind Engineer Regiment
23rd Ind Engineer Regiment
22nd Recon Regiment
114th Infantry Regiment
21st Division
4th Ind Engineer Regiment
6th Tank Regiment
18th Mountain Gun Regiment
54th Const Co
25th Army
3rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
53rd Const Co
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
55th Const Co

Defending units:
8th Indian Brigade
22nd Indian Brigade
223 Group RAF /1

No combat troops are now left outside of Singapore. Just a small BF.

Philippines:
Manila - Cribtop has neglected to bomb this base much to date. However, today sees 24 Oscars sweep before 34 Nates, 19 Lily, and 7 Sally hit AF.
Clark -

Borneo:
Beaufort - Elements of 81st Nav Gds take base from RN BF (eliminated)

Sumatra:
Medan -

SRA:
Kendari -

New Guinea/Solomons:

Central Pacific:
Canton - transports unloading & unspotted
Christmas Island - transports empty and leaving now. [8D]

South Pacific:

North Pacific:
Umnak -

Australia:

Engineers:

Intel:

Notes/Plans:
Malaya and Luzon - Last turn saw ONLY 25 Sally and 19 Lily used. Where are all his bombers?? Cribtop has used very limited number of bombers on a daily basis. Why??

China - I have troops marching through Sian to curve around and then down to Ankang. I hope I can get there fast enough. Screen shot shows lots of troops with arrows showing the steady move now to get over towards Ankang.

[JocMeister]

Yeah, China sucks. [:(]

Watch out for those forced retreats. One retreat into the wrong hex and the overstack will doom not only the already shattered stack but also the next line of defense as all supply are almost instantly burned.

That is how Tom managed to smash through North of Sian and reached the Chungking plains in just a couple of days. 3 attacks caused 3 retreats which all retreated into the same hex. Almost instantly lost all the supply the troops had. It will be gone long, long before you can move out.

[ny59giants]

In BTS, I tweaked supplies by increasing daily organic at Chungking from 400 to 450 and decreasing the damaged industry at Chungking and Changsha. Right now, I have about 28k at Chungking, so supplies are not an issue. However, I have not had to deal with extended periods of combat yet. I hope my changes for this mod help. Cannot do anything about me not sending enough troops to this potential threat axis. [:(]

[JocMeister]

Yeah, only thing to do is keep feeding troops into the grinder. Sadly we all know where it will end... [:(]

Also keep in mind that getting those 28k to flow back to the troops might not be so easy. I had over 10k at Chungking but was still unable to get troops less then 10 hexes from there into supply once they were drained by the overstack.

[JuanG]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

WTH?? The French BC 13" guns have a range 10,000 greater than the 16"/50s of the Constitutions, and greater penetrating power too!

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Any questions about the BB/BCs should go to JuanG as he did them, I think. Right John 3rd??

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Ain't been touched by me...

Either they are stock, worked over by Skyland, or Juans.

I have no idea where the numbers for that 330mm on the Dunkerque came from. The 16in/50 numbers were produced by JWE (because RA/BTS use the DBB naval guns numbers, which he is the authority of) and are largely in line with my own estimates.

At first glace it looks like the range on the 330mm is correct - it had a maximum range of ~45,600 yards at 35 degrees elevation when firing its 1235lb AP rounds, and a muzzle velocity of 2850fps (which is damn fast).

In comparison, the 16in/50 Mk3 which only ever saw use as a coastal mounting had a range of ~45,100 yards, at an angle of 46 degrees and a muzzle velocity of 2650fps when firing 2240lb AP (same shell as on Colorado class).

However, I believe JWE ran the numbers for them with a maximum elevation of 30 degrees, like the turrets on the Colorado class, which would put their maximum range in the 36-37,000 yard mark. For reference, Colorado firing the same shell at 2520fps and 30 degrees has a range of 35,000 yards. I would probably have picked 36-37,000 yards for the 16in/50s, but the difference is fairly minor.

As for penetration - the 2240lb Mk5 APC at 2650fps (Constitution class) penetrates 22.3in of Class A at 15,000 yards, and 19in at 20,000 yards. In comparison the same shell at 2520fps (Colorado) has a penetration of 20.7in and 17.5in respectively. I think the 16in/50 Mk3 is a little underrated currently at only 2 more penetration than the 16in/45 on the Colorado, something in the 760-770 range would be more appropriate.

The French shell is a newer design than the 2240lb Mk5 (the post-44 US shells do not seem to be modelled apart from on the 16in/50 Mk7), and due its high velocity its performance is impressive despite its size, however it does seem to be overperforming here. At 2850fps its penetration is 19.8in and 16.8in of Class A respectively. This would put it between the 16in/45 on the Colorado and the 14in/50 on the Tennessee/NM, with a penetration value around 700. For reference the French 15in on the Richilieu is only 754 in game.

One last thing I notice is the Ammo count on the Dunkerque - these carried 110 rounds per gun, so an ammo number of 16 is a little high. Consider that the Alaska class CB carried 166 rounds per gun of 12in (so a fairly close comparison), and also gets a 16. I would give Dunkerque a 14 at most, probably a 13, given that the 14in gunned US Standard BBs get a 12 at 100 rounds per gun.

So, potential fix list;
1) Increase range on 16in/50 to 37,000 yards.
2) Decrease penetration on 330mm to 700-710 (maybe JWE could run the numbers for the DBB model?)
3) Decrease ammo on Dunkerque main battery to 13.

[BBfanboy]

Thanks for the explanation JuanG - I hadn't thought of the limited max elevation on the older ships guns as the limiting factor on range.

From Nathan Okun's armour penetration articles in Warship International, I seem to recall that too high a velocity on an AP shell hitting face hardened armour can shatter the shell, while a heavy, slower shell will use it's mass and spin to bore through the face hardened plate and push through the tough steel behind it.
All of which makes me wonder whether Dunkerkque's shell could achieve the penetration of battleship armour. It was designed to counter the German pocket battleships, which it could easily do.

BTW, the French 15" guns on the Richelieu class were the most powerful ever built of that caliber. Too bad they never saw much use IRL, but WITP-AE allows for many alternate histories. I'll be watching for their performance.

[topeverest]

Have to agree that too easy for JFB in china. 28K supply will fly by too.

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Yeah, only thing to do is keep feeding troops into the grinder. Sadly we all know where it will end... [:(]

Also keep in mind that getting those 28k to flow back to the troops might not be so easy. I had over 10k at Chungking but was still unable to get troops less then 10 hexes from there into supply once they were drained by the overstack.

[ny59giants]

IRL Japan was too worried about the Russians coming in if they weakened their defenses to the degree a Japanese player does in AE. I almost feel the need for Russia to be activate at start to prevent China from being overrun in early '42.

[DOCUP]

I like that idea ny59giants.

[John 3rd]

The whole design team has tried to work up ways to SLOW DOWN the Japanese taking of China and, conversely, the Allied re-conquest of the same. We've raised garrison requirements for both sides, added some supply to the Chinese, and raised starting Fortification numbers. What more can one do?

Problem that I have with EITHER side is that the game is called War in the PACIFIC: Admiral's Edition.

As a JFB I want to take a certain portion of China to 'clean it up' and make for a defensible line. After that I am done. Japan could never have truly taken ALL of China; therefore, I do not even try. Usually when I reach the line I want, I offer a six month renewable truce to my opponent. If one side or the other plans to leave the truce then notice must be given 30 days ahead of the end of the six month window.

[Capt. Harlock]

BTW, the French 15" guns on the Richelieu class were the most powerful ever built of that caliber. Too bad they never saw much use IRL,

Surprisingly enough, they were fired in anger against the USS Massachusetts during the November '42 invasions in French North Africa. No hits, however.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

IRL Japan was too worried about the Russians coming in if they weakened their defenses to the degree a Japanese player does in AE. I almost feel the need for Russia to be activate at start to prevent China from being overrun in early '42.

THAT would keep the tanks in Manchuria! [X(]

Too much though. The Russians may not have much of an air force at this pout, but the army is already decent and would give the Japanese fits if it was rolling in 42. It could be fun, and tense, but I think would end in an early Japanese collapse. Maybe a Scen 2/30 game would be viable with the Russians active.

China presents problems, but regardless of if the game is mostly about the Pacific, it ultimately has to be decided on land everywhere. The CBI is a vital part of that, and it would just be better if the mechanism for the Japanese movement in China had greater restraints the father it moved, as in life, so that it would be much less able to ultimately take ALL of China assuming decent defensive play, but could still choose portions to carve up for a while.

The difficulty with just turning China off is that it also makes useless a large portion of the Japanese Army that you don't have the PPs to move out to fight elsewhere.

[ny59giants]

There is a reason that the components for Japan's 1st and 2nd Tank Divisions come in as reinforcements in Manchuria, not the Home Islands or someplace else.

A few years ago, I got the book Nomonhan, 1939 by Stuart D. Goldman. There is a reason Japanese tanks were deployed mainly in Manchuria.

Right now, a month into this game, its only China where I feel I'm in trouble. The 800 lb gorilla called the USA is ALWAYS the deciding factor in this war. [:)]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: obvert


Too much though. The Russians may not have much of an air force at this pout, but the army is already decent and would give the Japanese fits if it was rolling in 42. It could be fun, and tense, but I think would end in an early Japanese collapse. Maybe a Scen 2/30 game would be viable with the Russians active.

I think an active USSR would perhaps be too much at any time, but as a counter you should look at the LCU withdrawal queue for the USSR in 1942. Many, many units go away for historically understandable reasons. In 1942 that portion of the map is actually pretty much a big balloon. Not saying Japan could walk in, but it might be possible if India/Oz adventures were curtailed. And it would certainly change the end game if those forces and bases were not available to the Allies.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: obvert


Too much though. The Russians may not have much of an air force at this pout, but the army is already decent and would give the Japanese fits if it was rolling in 42. It could be fun, and tense, but I think would end in an early Japanese collapse. Maybe a Scen 2/30 game would be viable with the Russians active.

I think an active USSR would perhaps be too much at any time, but as a counter you should look at the LCU withdrawal queue for the USSR in 1942. Many, many units go away for historically understandable reasons. In 1942 that portion of the map is actually pretty much a big balloon. Not saying Japan could walk in, but it might be possible if India/Oz adventures were curtailed. And it would certainly change the end game if those forces and bases were not available to the Allies.

Look at the rader-Jzanes game where rader attacks Russia in 42. He didn't even take China before!

He does go quite far into Russia, but doesn't get it all, and eventually the Russians push back. The critical point is when B-29s start appearing in Russia. Several games since have had HRs about other Allied forces not being able to use Russian bases.

Even in 42, although the numbers aren't what they will be, the firepower of a Russian division is pretty decent, and they have enough supply to do some things, unlike in China.

[traskott]

Excellent AAR, and good point about Russia.

I think Russia is veeery difficult to take as:

1.- Their units begin with good morale, so no massive surrender ala dutch/CW/Phi
2.- LOT of art units, with a good number of 240/122/76 barrels. Enough to win almost every artillery duel.
3.- Lot of its units are armored, so more difficult to destroy, and, with roads and rr, make an excellent reserve.
4.- Short lines, plenty of supplies, overall good commanders.
5.- Japanese Air Support, although available, is not strong enough to unbalance the front.

My two cents [:)].

BTW: Ny59, how will u use those BCs? raiders? scouting? fast CV escort ?

[JocMeister]

Regarding China:

Japanese and Chinese garrison requirements should be increased A LOT. Not just a little but enough that it will severely reduce the amount of troops available for front line duty for both sides. Make destroyed Chinese LCUs respawn with full supply (if possible) and some guns. Not just squads. Increase Chinese "respawning" EXP/MRL to 40/60 instead of the current 30/30. Allow for Chinese units to dig forts despite being out of supply (if possible).

Or decrease supply in Japanese controlled China so its just about self sufficient without any combat. That way rolling over the Chinese would come at a steep supply cost making another venture like India/OZ impossible. Place HUGE garrison requirements on "opposing" bases. So massive Japanese garrison requirements on Chinese cities and vice versa.

Activating USSR would put a tremendous strain on the Japanese. It would force them to try and knock the SU out at once or suffer the consequences in 43-45. It would unbalance the whole game IMO.