First Impression of 1.215

[Omnius]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Just curious on the hex control bug (we do know there are some bugs on conquest but...) were the hexes also ZoC'd by Italian or Allied units? The way the rule reads, the ZoC must be undisputed by any other power in order to convert to German control.

On the other question, Japan is completely separate in terms of conquest and to completely conquer Japan, you also need to conquer Formosa, Manchuria and Korea. The Japanese are willing to set up shop in each of those countries if the home islands are conquered.

paulderynck,
I do know the rules and the German units did not have competing ZOC's with Allied units. I had read of this ZOC control problem when Italy surrenders before and wanted to see how it played out. It is definitely a bug that must be fixed. My solution was to station 2 German mountain corps in the mountain hexes south of Munich and by chance the Rommel HQ came in that turn as a reinforcement that I placed in Munich. I'm now pushing supply southwards from Munich with Rommel.

I also found that some Italian units in southern France are incorrectly out of supply. Some of the Italian units that survived the surrender are in supply while some aren't. I'm posting a saved game and bug report on it and this saved game will show you the incorrect Italian surrender and ZOC control. It's version 1.215 so hopefully you'll be able to check it out yourself and see the problem is real.

Omnius

PS - Thanks for the forewarning on Japan. I'm starting to get the hang of how the rules work as far as surrender goes. It's also why I'm going so deep into the game to see how things work. I saw how cutting off supply by sinking all convoy points in the China Sea puts Japan's empire out of supply, not to mention reducing it's production.

Is Germany the same way? WQill I have to conquer every Axis minor? Really lame as when the major goes belly up the minors should too. Probably the one real bug fail in the diplomacy rules.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

The are rules for automatic victory - capturing certain victory cities. Those should kick in without you having to go around the globe conquering every minor country.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Omnius
I do know the rules and the German units did not have competing ZOC's with Allied units.

It was German units having competing ZOCs with Italian units that I wondered about. Counter-intuitive but those hexes become controlled by the Allied conqueror.

ORIGINAL: Omnius
Is Germany the same way? WQill I have to conquer every Axis minor? Really lame as when the major goes belly up the minors should too. Probably the one real bug fail in the diplomacy rules.

Any minor aligned with Germany is a potential new home country for an incompletely conquered Germany.

[Omnius]

I can see where the incomplete surrender rules work well early in the game for countries like Belgium or the Netherlands or France which had overseas colonies. I find the incomplete surrender rules silly at the end of the game where Italy or Germany or Japan can hang around like a bad hangover way past time that they historically gave up. When Germany historically surrendered it didn't fight on as Norway. Probably the one poorly thought out part of the game system.

Omnius

[Omnius]

Shannon,
Not sure what you mean by automatic surrender. I did force Italy to surrender incompletely when I fulfilled the conditions set out in the rules. Had a nasty surprise when Italy hung on as Albania. Downright frustrating when I had to wait another turn having some Italian units hold up the American advance into northern Italy as the Italians just happened to be in southern France. It sure was nice to see them disappear after Albania/Italy completely surrendered.

I sure wish there were a more automatic surrender rule for Germany. Like when the Allies capture all German factory cities and Berlin then Germany should completely surrender, no incomplete nonsense. That would more properly model the death of Hitler and the lack of desire by the remaining generals to want to continue a losing war.

Omnius

[Centuur]

I don't know. Historically, the Germans first lost all aligned minors before they were themselves conquered...

Would the CW capitulate if Great Britain was conquered?

Personally, I think it is a just rule, forcing the allies to conquer all aligned minors (which they historically did, except for Finland, which could make a political deal with the USSR in september 1944).

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I don't know. Historically, the Germans first lost all aligned minors before they were themselves conquered...

Would the CW capitulate if Great Britain was conquered?

Personally, I think it is a just rule, forcing the allies to conquer all aligned minors (which they historically did, except for Finland, which could make a political deal with the USSR in september 1944).

Hear, hear.

[paulderynck]

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Shannon,
Not sure what you mean by automatic surrender. I did force Italy to surrender incompletely when I fulfilled the conditions set out in the rules. Had a nasty surprise when Italy hung on as Albania. Downright frustrating when I had to wait another turn having some Italian units hold up the American advance into northern Italy as the Italians just happened to be in southern France. It sure was nice to see them disappear after Albania/Italy completely surrendered.

I sure wish there were a more automatic surrender rule for Germany. Like when the Allies capture all German factory cities and Berlin then Germany should completely surrender, no incomplete nonsense. That would more properly model the death of Hitler and the lack of desire by the remaining generals to want to continue a losing war.

Omnius

See Automatic Victory in RAC, page 116.

[Omnius]

Centuur,
Didn't Norway survive in German hands until the end of the war? When Germany surrendered so did all the German troops in Norway. Anyway a bad surrender rule for Germany as when Germany is completely conquered, including Berlin being captured, then that should be the end of Germany's war since that would model Hitler being killed. Unlike Italy when Germany surrenders it should be game over for German allies.

Omnius

[Omnius]

Shannon,
Thanks for the heads up on Automatic Victory. I did check the rule and see that all I need to do is capture Taihoku which I'll do in my game's current turn and then it's on to Berlin and Tokyo.

Omnius

[paulderynck]

Norway is a conquest not an alignment, so once conditions are met for the complete conquest of Germany, then whether they hold Norway doesn't matter - they surrender like in real life. And in real life, all the German aligned minors were conquered before Germany was. Could it have come down to Hitler and some SS units holding out in Prague or Bratislava? Maybe.

[Omnius]

paulderynck,
Thanks for telling me the distinction between Norway being a conquest and not an alignment. At least German units there will surrender when Germany surrenders. I'm working on knocking out all of the aligned minors before I force a German surrender but I may force the German surrender even if some of the minors are on life support.

Omnius

[analog_relic]

ORIGINAL: tyroneslothrop

ORIGINAL: bo

Hi Omnius good post. Hope it is working out for you.

No return post comments yet. [;)] Either nobody Has downloaded 1.215, [&:] or they don't know it's there, [>:] or they just don't care, [:(] take your pick.

At 7:25 Friday EST 2014 there was not one person on the MWIF posts, in all the years I have been here I have never seen that. I find it

that kind of scary but that's just me.

7;45 EST paul just arrived now I feel better [;)] I am not alone [:(]


Bo

There are those of us around for Chris Marinacci's CWIF who have waited almost 20 years for a stable and playable computer WIF and who are content to lurk around for the 6-12 months that it will take for netplay to work stably. After all, what is another year if you waited at least 15? [;)]

+1 The games needs so much work to get to the point where its playable as more than beta sandbox, I am in no hurry to DL updates. Whats another year or two? AR