Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues

[mikmykWS]

Yeah

Could just write a note in the scenario notes saying all cars are decoys.

We're also working on something now that might give an opportunity for more scoring variables anyways.

Mike

[tservello92]

As promised, following up with more info on SOF. This quick note covers the comm/datalink portion.

Every US SOF element (at this point, every major Western SOF element) carries secure HF (PRC-104, 137 or 150) and SATCOM (PSC-5, PRC-152 or 117) radios.

[tservello92]

Gents, as part of my suggestions for SOF, could you please add the following weapons to the database. I will reference most of these in my next post detailing how the various SOF elements should be armed. A couple of these will also be used in edits I will request for conventional forces later down the line.

I modeled the rocket-based systems on #2807 (RB 57 MBT LAW) and the “gun” based systems on #2263 (M3 Carl Gustav) and #2435 (MK 19). Defer to the developers on the damage points assigned to each of these, but I based the DPs on other weapons in the DB.

In my research I did find a discrepancy. There is an entry in the CWDB, #1001562 - Carl Gustav recoilless rifle (84mm) that lists it as a Rocket (not a gun) with AP ammo. IMHO this entry can be deleted as it contradicts the other two Carl Gustav entries (#2263 and #1001028) that seem more accurate.

Demolition Charge – this one stumped me. There is an entry in #885 (US Navy SEAL) that includes the “SEAL Saboteur” - that looks to be 25kg of C4. It looks like this unit carries 6 of these and it lists the range as 8 nm? Ragnar, could you explain how this works? In a perfect world this capability would be represented by the M183 satchel charge (8 x M112 blocks of C4 – ~9kg of C4) and/or the M3A1 demo shaped charge (13.2 kg of C4). Obviously the SOF element has to be ON TOP of the target to use it. Any chance this could be modeled…a weapon that is fired from .00001 nm and then detonates 5 – 10 minutes later doing full damage?

Anti-Material Rifle (12.7, 14.5 or 20mm)
Type: Gun
Rng: 1 nm
CEP: 30
PK%: 99
Warhead Type: AP
Damage Points: 1 (might seem high, but the Mk211 round is impressive)

40mm GL (M203, M320, M32)
Type: Gun
Rng: .2 nm
CEP: 30
PK%: 99
Warhead Type: HE Blast/Frag
Damage Points: .2

Mk47 Mod 1 automatic grenade launcher
Type: Gun
Rng: .8 nm
CEP: 30
PK%: 99
Warhead Type: HE Blast/Frag
Damage Points: .2

M4 Carl Gustav (HEAT) - this is the newest model of the Goose just entering service. Damn this thing is light!!!
Type: Gun
L: .95 m
S: .084 m
D: .084 m
W: 9.8 kg
Rng: .5 nm
CEP: 30
PK%: 99
Warhead Type: Shaped Charge
Damage Points: 1

M4 Carl Gustav (HEDP)
Type: Gun
L: .95 m
S: .084 m
D: .084 m
W: 9.9 kg
Rng: .5 nm
CEP: 30
PK%: 99
Warhead Type: HE Blast/Frag
Damage Points: 3.1

M-72A7 LAW
Type: Rocket
L: .71 m (30”)
S: .066 m
D: .066 m
W: 3.6 kg
Rng: .15 nm
CEP: 30
PK%: 99
Warhead Type: HE Blast/Frag
Damage Points: 1

FGM-172 SRAW
Type: Rocket
L: .71 m
S: .14 m
D: .14 m
W: 9.7 kg
Rng: .3 nm
CEP: 30
PK%: 99
Warhead Type: HE Blast/Frag
Damage Points: 3.1

AT-4-CS
Type: Rocket
L: 1.02 m
S: .084 m
D: .084 m
W: 6.7 kg
Rng: .15 nm
CEP: 30
PK%: 99
Warhead Type: HEAT Shaped Charge
Damage Points: 1

M141 SMAW-D
Type: Rocket
L: .81 m
S: .083 m
D: .083 m
W: 7.1 kg
Rng: .15 nm
CEP:
PK%:
Warhead Type: HE Blast/Frag
Damage Points: 3.1

Mk 153 Mod 2 SMAW (HEDP)
Type: Rocket
L: 1.37 m
S: .083 m
D: .083 m
W: 11.75 kg
Rng: .25 nm
CEP: 30
PK%: 99
Warhead Type: HE Blast/Frag
Damage Points: 3.1

Mk 153 Mod 2 SMAW (HEAA)
Type: Rocket
L: 1.37 m
S: .083 m
D: .083 m
W: 12.21 kg
Rng: .25 nm
CEP: 30
PK%: 99
Warhead Type: Shaped Charge
Damage Points: 1

[decaf]

Found a weapon system misspelling. (AAW --> AWW)
This is a tangential issue to post #1030, this thread.

All references to:
AN/AAW-9/13
AN/AAW-9
AN/AAW-13

should, instead, be spelled as:
AN/AWW-9/13
AN/AWW-9
AN/AWW-13

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/aww-13.htm

This will involve datalinks:
AN/AAW-9/13 Missile Datalink --> AN/AWW-9/13 Missile Datalink

and datalink pods #571 and #1861

Assuming you only need to change the names (and not numbers),
I hope that would flush through the rest of the database.

Aside from the datalink pods, it will show up in weapons:

#452 -- AGM-84K SLAMER-ATA
#621 -- AGM-84H SLAMER
#1866-- AGM-84E SLAM

#1862 -- AGM-62B Walleye II ER/DL
#1057 -- AGM-62A Walleye I ER/DL

and, maybe, others.

Also, pods are used in loadouts for aircraft such as

A-7
F/A-18
F-15K Slam Eagle
F-15SA
F-16E Desert Falcon
F-16F Desert Falcon
P-3
S-3
P-8 (pod needs to be added)

http://www.deagel.com/Navigation-and-Ta ... 53001.aspx

By the way, I also noticed that

#452 -- AGM-84K SLAMER-ATA
#621 -- AGM-84H SLAMER

should be referred to as:

#452 -- AGM-84K SLAM-ER (ATA)
#621 -- AGM-84H SLAM-ER

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_displ ... =1100&ct=2

These are just cosmetic changes to the database.
No functional change expected.

[mikmykWS]

Updated list. Thanks guys!

Mike

[Tomcat84]

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Add a generic unit like a truck, car, building and add the sensors to it.

Just to make sure my brain isn't missing something:

- if I take a car on the enemy AI side and add for example a Tall King sensor to it to be a decoy and turn it on, my player side will get the emissions, but the enemy will actually get the sensor info too, right? It will be a working Tall King that produces data? There isnt a way to have the sensor emit the signal but not actually produce useful info?

It's not a big problem but if there is a simple way then I am interested in knowing

[Mgellis]

A few more future platforms that I'd love to see added, even if they are only "guesstimates"...

French Barracuda-class submarine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Bar ... _submarine
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... racuda.htm
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/fra ... ass-02902/
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/barracuda/
http://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/7 ... elcos-afs/
http://navaltoday.com/2012/12/03/uk-cat ... ubmarines/

Arihant-class submarine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arihant-class_submarine
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/arihant-class/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ia/atv.htm
http://us.india.com/loudspeaker/ins-ari ... 015-11457/
http://www.makhol.com/indias-nuclear-su ... s-weapons/
http://www.ipcs.org/article/india/ins-a ... -4519.html

INS Vishal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vishal
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... vishal.htm
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indi ... -cost.html
http://curiousindian.com/2014/01/06/beh ... a-arrives/

Project 17A-class frigate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_17A-class_frigate
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ct-17a.htm
http://defence.pk/threads/from-p-17-to- ... vy.200840/
http://china-pla.blogspot.com/2009/06/p ... vy_25.html

Kamorta-class corvette
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamorta-class_corvette
http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... corvettes/
http://canadianpower.shoutwiki.com/wiki ... s_Corvette
http://www.deagel.com/Corvettes-and-Mis ... 38001.aspx
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... a/p-28.htm

[mikmykWS]

These are already on our list.

Sorry Mark we'll get to them.

Mike

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Add a generic unit like a truck, car, building and add the sensors to it.

Just to make sure my brain isn't missing something:

- if I take a car on the enemy AI side and add for example a Tall King sensor to it to be a decoy and turn it on, my player side will get the emissions, but the enemy will actually get the sensor info too, right? It will be a working Tall King that produces data? There isnt a way to have the sensor emit the signal but not actually produce useful info?

It's not a big problem but if there is a simple way then I am interested in knowing

No that would definitely be an issue with that method.

Mike

[Mgellis]

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

These are already on our list.

Sorry Mark we'll get to them.

Mike

No problem. I just wasn't sure if those platforms had been requested or not--I thought some of them might have been requested already, but when I checked using the forum search engine, I did not get any results. I must have just done something wrong when I searched. Sorry about that.

[Dutchie999]

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Add a generic unit like a truck, car, building and add the sensors to it.

Just to make sure my brain isn't missing something:

- if I take a car on the enemy AI side and add for example a Tall King sensor to it to be a decoy and turn it on, my player side will get the emissions, but the enemy will actually get the sensor info too, right? It will be a working Tall King that produces data? There isnt a way to have the sensor emit the signal but not actually produce useful info?

It's not a big problem but if there is a simple way then I am interested in knowing

Damnit. There goes our brilliant idea. Yeah that totally defeats the purpose. Maybe the developers can put in a 'transmitting but not benefitting' option when you hit the sensor-view window in a future update [;)] [:D]

[mikmykWS]

Actually no. Just add another side for the decoys that has an awareness level of blind. Easy.

Don't name the side decoys[:)]

Mike

[e2204588]

AN/APG-82(V)1 for F-15E ?

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/apg82v1/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/APG-63_ ... 82.28V.291

[Tomcat84]

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Actually no. Just add another side for the decoys that has an awareness level of blind. Easy.

Don't name the side decoys[:)]

Mike

Cant believe I didnt think of that! smart

[Hydrolek]

Next polish "low defense" system:

23 MM ANTI-AIRCRAFT MOBILE GUN AND MISSILE SYSTEM ZUR-23-2KG

Polish Army air defence systems/ The Wisła programe.
zur 23 2kgi

The ZUR-23-2-KG system is equipped with 23mm cannons, GROM missiles, traverse and elevation electric drives. It can work in external FCS, it is equipped with programmable sight CP-1 (with night and day track, LRF, two ballistics ) or collimator sight CKE-2. The system can fight the targets by means of 23mm sub-calibre ammunition type API (BZT), HEI-T (OFZT), APDS-T and FAPDS-T.

The ZUR-23-2-KG system is designed to fight (using 23mm cannons and GROM missiles) low-flying air targets such as: aircraft, helicopters, winged rockets, unmanned flying objects, landing troops and unarmoured and lightly armoured ground targets.

Main characteristics:

Weapon 2 x 23 mm cannon
2 x GROM missile launchers
Firing angles Horizontal 360 degrees
Vertical from -5 / -3 to +75 degrees
Practical rate of fire up to 400 rds./min. for one gun
Cannon range: maximal vertical/total/
maximal effective for ground targets 1500/2500/2000 m for API and HEI
2000/3000/2500 m for APDS and FAPDS
Maximal range of GROM missiles 5500 m
Height of the target flight
minimal/maximal for GROM missiles 10/3500 m
Missile firing angle Horizontal 360 degrees
Vertical from 0 to +70 degrees


high reliability,
good technical and tactical features allow to fire the targets (which appear unexpectedly and move in different directions) with great efficiency,
the collimator sight CKE-2 or programmable sight CP-1 generates automatically (during target tracking) the proper leading angles for every action on the battlefield,
firing from different places in different weather and time conditions,
adaptation to the use of new, sub-calibre ammunition and GROM missiles,
adaptation to work in external FCS.

[Dutchie999]

I have another good one to add to the database. The new K-77M (izdeliye 180) air to air missile for the Sukhoi T-50. Designed to compete with the new AIM-120D.

I just did some testing of air engagements with F-22 and F-35 against T-50's and I noticed some strange things concerning their radar performance.

Ausairpower: Suppose the Russians don’t quite master stealth to the degree of the F-22A, but manage a RCS of 0.01 square metres from all aspects. The F-22A’s APG-77 will detect the PAK-FA at ~40 nm and the F-35’s APG-81 at ~30 nm. Passive electronic surveillance might increase detection ranges, but this still makes long-range missile shots problematic, as tracking depends upon the opponent emitting, which smart opponents will try not to do.
The PAK-FA’s radar can be expected to be an improvement on the IRBIS-E so at front-on aspects might detect the F-22A at ~15 nautical miles and the F-35 at ~28 nautical miles; and from side and rear aspects, the F-22A at ~43 nautical miles and the F-35 at ~51 nautical miles.

To make it more clear (using only radar!):

FRONT

F-22 sees T-50 @ 50nm in game -> should be 40nm
T-50 sees F-22 @ 35nm in game -> should be 15 nm

F-35 sees T-50 @ 31nm in game -> should be 30nm
T-50 sees F-35 @ 40nm in game -> should be 28 nm

SIDE & REAR (tested in game from side)

F-22 sees T-50 @ 45nm in game -> should be ? nm
T-50 sees F-22 @ 40nm in game -> should be 43 nm

F-35 sees T-50 @ 28nm in game -> should be ? nm
T-50 sees F-35 @ 44nm in game -> should be 51 nm

By the way it is interesting to see how after a long time BVR dominated air combat and now with stealth fighter aircraft, the planes will be once more closer to each other.

[Coiler12]

ORIGINAL: Dutchie999

I have another good one to add to the database. The new K-77M (izdeliye 180) air to air missile for the Sukhoi T-50. Designed to compete with the new AIM-120D.

Just saying the missile is there isn't helpful for the developers. Far from the easiest to find stuff on, basically we know it's an upgraded AA-12, and that's it. Even estimates from elsewhere would give us something rather than just (at best) a placehold with AA-12 stats and maybe an upgraded generation seeker.

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: Hydrolek

Next polish "low defense" system:

23 MM ANTI-AIRCRAFT MOBILE GUN AND MISSILE SYSTEM ZUR-23-2KG

Polish Army air defence systems/ The Wisła programe.
zur 23 2kgi

The ZUR-23-2-KG system is equipped with 23mm cannons, GROM missiles, traverse and elevation electric drives. It can work in external FCS, it is equipped with programmable sight CP-1 (with night and day track, LRF, two ballistics ) or collimator sight CKE-2. The system can fight the targets by means of 23mm sub-calibre ammunition type API (BZT), HEI-T (OFZT), APDS-T and FAPDS-T.

The ZUR-23-2-KG system is designed to fight (using 23mm cannons and GROM missiles) low-flying air targets such as: aircraft, helicopters, winged rockets, unmanned flying objects, landing troops and unarmoured and lightly armoured ground targets.

Main characteristics:

Weapon 2 x 23 mm cannon
2 x GROM missile launchers
Firing angles Horizontal 360 degrees
Vertical from -5 / -3 to +75 degrees
Practical rate of fire up to 400 rds./min. for one gun
Cannon range: maximal vertical/total/
maximal effective for ground targets 1500/2500/2000 m for API and HEI
2000/3000/2500 m for APDS and FAPDS
Maximal range of GROM missiles 5500 m
Height of the target flight
minimal/maximal for GROM missiles 10/3500 m
Missile firing angle Horizontal 360 degrees
Vertical from 0 to +70 degrees


high reliability,
good technical and tactical features allow to fire the targets (which appear unexpectedly and move in different directions) with great efficiency,
the collimator sight CKE-2 or programmable sight CP-1 generates automatically (during target tracking) the proper leading angles for every action on the battlefield,
firing from different places in different weather and time conditions,
adaptation to the use of new, sub-calibre ammunition and GROM missiles,
adaptation to work in external FCS.

Pretty sure this is part of Kobra system correct?

Do you have an data on the MMR radar associated with it?

Thanks!

Mike

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: Dutchie999


I have another good one to add to the database. The new K-77M (izdeliye 180) air to air missile for the Sukhoi T-50. Designed to compete with the new AIM-120D.

I just did some testing of air engagements with F-22 and F-35 against T-50's and I noticed some strange things. The T-50 can see the F-22 much earlier on it's radar. 75nm and the F-22 can see the T-50 from 50nm away on it's radar. Shouldn't this be the other way around? But even then, these sound like very long detection ranges for advanced stealth aircraft.

Ausairpower: Suppose the Russians don’t quite master stealth to the degree of the F-22A, but manage a RCS of 0.01 square metres from all aspects. The F-22A’s APG-77 will detect the PAK-FA at ~40 nm and the F-35’s APG-81 at ~30 nm. Passive electronic surveillance might increase detection ranges, but this still makes long-range missile shots problematic, as tracking depends upon the opponent emitting, which smart opponents will try not to do.
The PAK-FA’s radar can be expected to be an improvement on the IRBIS-E so at front-on aspects might detect the F-22A at ~15 nautical miles and the F-35 at ~28 nautical miles; and from side and rear aspects, the F-22A at ~43 nautical miles and the F-35 at ~51 nautical miles.

To make it more clear (using only radar!):

FRONT

F-22 sees T-50 @ 50nm in game -> should be 40nm
T-50 sees F-22 @ 75nm in game -> should be 15 nm

F-35 sees T-50 @ 100nm in game -> should be 30nm
T-50 sees F-35 @ 75nm in game -> should be 28 nm

SIDE & REAR (tested in game from side)

F-22 sees T-50 @ 45nm in game -> should be ? nm
T-50 sees F-22 @ 40nm in game -> should be 43 nm

F-35 sees T-50 @ 28nm in game -> should be ? nm
T-50 sees F-35 @ 44nm in game -> should be 51 nm

By the way it is interesting to see how after a long time BVR dominated air combat and now with stealth fighter aircraft, the planes will be once more closer to each other.

Can you post a picture of the missile as well as the source of your data? We ask because people will ask us.

Will look at the radar issues. Might be IRST but will see.

Thanks!

Mike

[Hydrolek]

GOS-1 AURORA optoelectronic head for observation and tracking

GOS-1 optoelectronic head for observation and tracking is a technically advanced product with a number of features enabling easy integration with weapon platforms (vehicles; armament modules and anti-aircraft sets). Its design allows using it on different types of land vehicles designed for detection, recognition, identifi cation of ground and air targets. The head is an element of SKO 23 mm anti-aircraft rocket and artillery set ZUR-23-2SP of „PILICA” system.

The head is composed of:

• cooled thermal camera (range 3-5 μm KMW-1),
• TV camera KTVD-1M,
• laser rangefi nder with high frequency of repetitions L-GM20.