The Great Patriotic War (loki100 vs SigUp) ... SigUp welcome to read

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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RE: March-April review (T45)

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jwolf

ORIGINAL: caliJP

That is a mighty fighting force backed by a full rail net....

My amateur's speculation is that the great rail network the Axis has at this time will outweigh the logistics reduction you put in place. Except for Axis players who attempt a Blue style deep strike, they can operate close to the front lines, with very good supply, and still engage -- or pocket -- vast numbers of Soviet units.

As in the next post, I'm pretty sure he is building up a relatively small elite force, I guess mostly his motorised units and a handful of infantry divisions. Elsewhere some of his infantry divisions seem to be incredibly fragile (or I just got ridiculously lucky in the last turn). Also, for the first time, there are sectors held by Rumanians (on there own if my recon is correct).

So my view, subject to change and being utterly wrong, is that at the moment SigUp is planning one big offensive and daren't let his flanks get too long or exposed. I've been obsessively revising my deployment in and around Tula to make it hard for him to pull off a monster encirclement and if he goes for army sized chunks he gets none of my better units - even better I maybe able not just to re-open a pocket but really make the outer screening units pay a high price.

One serious temptation is to leave a weak screen and pull right back, anchoring the Moscow defense on the Oka. But I feel I have to fight somewhere in the summer and Tula is as good as I have (here I am assuming no sustained attritional drive direct on Moscow).
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T46: 30 April – 5 May 1942

Post by loki100 »

Turn 46: 30 April – 5 May 1942: Poplyli tumany nad rekoj [1]

The end of April saw the creation of more Tank Corps, deployment of additional forces into the Tula sector and desperate attempts to stiffen the morale and training of the Red Army. Although industrial production had recovered from the worst of the disruption of 1941, both equipment and manpower remained in short supply.

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(Roughly: Nurses – Rescue the wounded and their weapons)

However, while both armies were focussed on their preparations for the Summer battles, the fickle weather created opportunities and problems. A return to freezing conditions around Moscow and in the Caucasus allowed for limited offensive actions.

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Ground Operations

On the southern edge of the Tula-Voronezh sector, the German armoured build up continued but their infantry tried to eliminate a Soviet bridgehead over the Mecha in order to secure their flank.

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The opening phase saw their 13 Infantry Corps drive in elements of 28 Army. However, a sharp counterstroke by cavalry units from 43 Army quickly restored the original front lines.

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With the Germans under some pressure, Leningrad Front authorised a supporting attack by 24 Army at Teploe. Despite initial successes, the intervention of German reserves quickly stalled the attack leading to heavy Soviet losses.

At the same time Southern Front launched a localised offensive along the Tikhaya Sosna and drove in over-extended German spearheads.

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[2]

Of note, this operation saw the first combat commitment of US provided A-20 attack aircraft.

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Finally, the Germans broke out of the Kerch peninsular and their 54 Infantry Corps drove in Soviet outlying defences and made progress towards the main defence line at Krasnodar-Novorossiysk.

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Air War
The air war continued unabated but with two separate campaigns. Defensively, especially in the Tula sector, the VVS was protecting Soviet deployments from air reconnaissance and shot down a further 8 German reconnaissance planes [3].

Offensively, the U2s continued their harassment attacks on German mobile units. In addition, several German airbases were identified as being the base for transport and reconnaissance planes and were heavily bombed. The problem in all these operations was that the German fighters remained dominant inflicting heavy losses on Soviet fighters. The only operational advantage was that increasingly the German fighters were unable to disrupt Soviet bombers.

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Commentary

[1] – translate as 'fog lay over the river' from the Russian folksong Katyusha that was very popular during the Great Patriotic War. 'Katyusha' is the dimunitive/affectionate form of the female name 'Katya' … as well as the nickname given to the Soviet rocket launchers. The tune was re-used for the Italian partisan song 'Fischia il vento'.

[2] – this attack was quite informative. From my records, the Germans alone have added 50,000 men (and 350 tanks) since the start of April. However, I'm finding a lot of 3-5 cv German infantry divisions which rather supports my fear that the bulk of these replacements are going to either the mobile units or a handful of high quality infantry forces.

Having said all that I have never seen modifications so extreme. In both the Germans ended up at under 25% of their notional value. In one my attack modification was much as expected 125-299 which was why I launched both attacks. But the first with 51 Army went up over 300%, and that is not a particularly well led formation at either army or front level.

[3] - SigUp has not flown any deep recon missions for a few turns now, so I'm reasonably sure he knows little about the deployment of my reserves. Also this steady attrition (I seem to be shooting down 8-10 per turn) must be causing longer term damage to his recon ability.
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RE: T46: 30 April – 5 May 1942

Post by jwolf »

It will be interesting to see more fighting -- and where it occurs -- during the mixed better weather turns to come in May.
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RE: T46: 30 April – 5 May 1942

Post by Peltonx »

Great thread reads like a real report from the front.
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RE: T46: 30 April – 5 May 1942

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jwolf

It will be interesting to see more fighting -- and where it occurs -- during the mixed better weather turns to come in May.

well we've just finished May and apart from in the south its been solid mud. I guess that I'm the net winner from that delay? I've got my defensive arrangements as good as I can, I still think SigUp has to go for Tula et al but he has full freedom to attack anywhere.
ORIGINAL: Pelton

Great thread reads like a real report from the front.

thank you [:)]
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T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942)

Post by loki100 »

T47-T50 (7 May – 3 June 1942): Morning – "Only the Seed of Noon"

By the 7 May the spring thaw had set in, clamping both armies into a sea of mud. The exception was south of the Dombas were both armies were effectively disengaged and unwilling to take advantage of the firmer ground. For good or ill, both sides were forced to rest, re-organise and prepare for the inevitable Summer battles [1].

If the ground war had come to a halt, the air war remained active. Both sides engaged in major operations seeking to inflict losses and disrupt enemy preparations. The VVS tried a dual approach of U2 night raids designed to disrupt and demoralise front line formations and massive daylight bombing raids aimed at detected concentrations of German armour. The Luftwaffe sought to exploit its technological advantage over the Soviet fighters in a series of attempts to seize air superiority around Tula and to disrupt Soviet missions into German airspace.

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(one of the first LA-5s in action near Tula)

In addition, both sides carried our numerous air reconnaissance missions designed to discover the location of enemy reserves and potential build ups.

The net result was substantial air losses for both sides.

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Otherwise both sides steadily built up for the coming clash.

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The Germans had added an extra 70,000 men, 500 guns and 125 tanks. Their various allies had added 67,000 men, 200 guns and 10 tanks. The Red Army had increased by 270,000 men, 5,000 guns (many mortars but also new AT regiments had been deployed to key sectors), 200 tanks and 100 aircraft.

However, Soviet air reconnaissance had detected substantial German fortified zones running from the Uka to the Dombas so it seemed that some of the additional German resources had been allocated to defensive preparations.

Most of the Soviet combat Fronts now controlled 5 Armies and the largest concentration was still around Moscow itself or on the Tula-Voronezh sector. Neither the Volkhov Front in the far north nor the 3 Fronts on the lower Don had been a priority for reinforcements. In addition to the front line formations Stavka had gathered substantial reserves behind Moscow, around Tambov and in the Stalingrad sector. This secondary line was designed both as an additional defensive belt and as a source of immediate replacements for the front line formations.

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Despite some arguments to the contrary [2], the Red Army remained on the defensive. While theoretically the Germans could launch their main offensive almost anywhere along the front, Stavka's attention was on the Tula-Ryazan-Voronezh triangle.

This sector was held by the all of two fronts (Leningrad and Bryansk) and the bulk of 2 others (Western and South Western).

Almost 2 million men were dug in expecting to face the main German offensive. Even ignoring the Stavka reserves, each front was deployed in a deep echelon with reserve formations up to 100 km from the current front line.

Soviet reconnaissance had identified what were believed to be 7 Pzr Corps facing this Soviet build up. A further 2 corps were believed to be on the Larna sector facing NW Front. It was feasible that this mass of German armour could swing south, or even try to take Moscow by a direct assault, but all the evidence was that eliminating the Soviet concentration around Tula would be the first step to their Summer offensive.

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(Soviet forces taking a break before the coming storm)

Soviet industry was steadily recovering but there was a growing shortage of trucks and manpower reserves were limited.

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[1] – consequence of using random weather – around Moscow, mud could continue for another two weeks
[2] – there are now some exposed Romanians around Rostov that it would be nice to use to train up my Tank Corps, but I am not going to risk any attacks at this stage.
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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942)

Post by M60A3TTS »

Why are your MiGs not deployed, Comrade? They are outstanding aircraft, and highly effective against the fascist airmen.
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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942)

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Why are your MiGs not deployed, Comrade? They are outstanding aircraft, and highly effective against the fascist airmen.

good question, and since we've just had another turn of solid mud, between terrorising the Germans with my U2s, I had a dig around. Now I am not sure how the air combat model works, so this involves a lot of guesswork but up to this I've been playing this by instinct and just assumed a fighter that is no longer in production is not as good as one that has just entered production.

What I've done is to dig out the key characteristics of the main Fighter units in action - have ignore axis allies and his ME-110s (which even my U2s can beat up)

The first two values are the ones shown when you select an air group. I presume that they are composite values and mean pretty much what they say. I've then go into the detailed logs for 3 performance issues - combat speed, rate of climb and max altitude as I assume these are important in any modelling of air combat. Finally I've looked at the effectiveness of the primary weapon system.

By now (June 42) the only thing the Mig has in its favour is altitude and max speed, but it climbs badly and its now under-gunned compared to my fighters using the 20mm ShVAK.

Ignoring the lend lease stuff and the LaGG-3s my main fighters are much the same, the Yak-7s have a small advantage in climb rate, the La-5s are a bit faster. But none come anywhere near the core performance of the BF-109. The only gain I have (assuming in all the combat data a higher value is better) is that if I can come into range then the Soviet fighters are more powerful.

To me all this sounds right. At this stage the VVS aimed to tangle up the German fighters and take their losses. The reason for fighters was to challenge German dominance in the air so they didn't have a free ride and protect Soviet bombers supporting ground operations. Soviet doctrine was that air power existed to support the Red Army, the airforce's formal title was VVS:RKKA (ie the combat airforce of the Red Army), not as an arm in its own right.

Looking at combat resolutions, that is pretty much what is happening, SigUp is shooting down few of my bombers despite winning the air to air combats.

Looking at the changes for the rest of 1942, I'm in trouble till the Yak-9s deploy in numbers.

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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942)

Post by jwolf »

In my admittedly limited experience with WITE, playing either side, it seems that the German and/or Soviet air forces may take some losses, but basically neither side can stop the other from performing its core bombing and ground support missions. I don't know how that compares to historical but I assume it isn't right.

As for Soviet planes and upgrades during 1942, I simply assumed that the newer models were better so I tried to phase out the older ones as best I could. As above I don't know how that compares to historical, nor in game terms if it was always helpful. I'd be interested to hear from more veteran players about these issues.
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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942)

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jwolf

In my admittedly limited experience with WITE, playing either side, it seems that the German and/or Soviet air forces may take some losses, but basically neither side can stop the other from performing its core bombing and ground support missions. I don't know how that compares to historical but I assume it isn't right.

As for Soviet planes and upgrades during 1942, I simply assumed that the newer models were better so I tried to phase out the older ones as best I could. As above I don't know how that compares to historical, nor in game terms if it was always helpful. I'd be interested to hear from more veteran players about these issues.

I'd be interested as well, it seems you can invest an awful lot of time in managing the air war but I'm really not sure there are huge returns

Most of the time I've seen bombers targetted by defending fighters is if you make the mistake of an unescorted raid and get caught - I've done this a few times when forgetting to do the select-shift routine for a ground attack. Makes me wonder if each fighter can only shoot once in a given combat and tend to hit fighters?

Having said that in the turn we've just run I saw a mixed attack trigger both fighter and Il-2 losses in air combat. I've been setting the combat resolution to the slowest level as it is quite informative as to what hits what and what is effective - the Il2s rockets seem to quite a killer, but its interesting to see the disruptions add up. No use in a raid not connected with combat but you do see how a pre-attack bombing raid can aid a subsequent ground attack.

... after 5 turns of solid mud its amazing what you find interesting [;)]
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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942)

Post by jwolf »

ORIGINAL: loki100

... after 5 turns of solid mud its amazing what you find interesting [;)]

ROFL that is certainly true!
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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942)

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jwolf

ORIGINAL: loki100

... after 5 turns of solid mud its amazing what you find interesting [;)]

ROFL that is certainly true!

aye think of it as the WiTE equivalent of cabin fever ... but things have finally changed
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T51 – T52 (4 – 17 June 1942)

Post by loki100 »

T51 – T52 (4 – 17 June 1942): “Protect the Homely Earth”

By the 11 June the ground had finally dried out enough to allow significant combat operations. Almost a year after they had invaded the Soviet Union, the Germans commenced their second summer offensive, this time seeking the knock out blow that had eluded them in 1941.

The opening phase was a relatively limited infantry assault aimed at formations of Leningrad Front guarding the western route to Tula.

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Soviet intelligence detected elements (from north to south) of 53, 9, 20, 7, 13 and 12 Infantry Corps indicating that at least 2 armies had been committed. More than anything else, the presence of 20 corps, redeployed from its victory at Sevastopol, convinced Stavka that this was the main German offensive.

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(Elements of 32 Army west of Tula)

Tactical and air reconnaissance detected a major build of German armour both behind the infantry and at Voronezh (where elements of 17 Infantry corps had eliminated a Soviet bridgehead over the Don. Increasingly it was becoming clear that the Germans had taken Stavka's gambit at Tula, what was not clear was whether the Red Army would survive the coming battles.

Leningrad and Bryansk Fronts were given permission to adjust their lines so as to avoid encirclement and pull back from any exposed salients. However, this was exactly the attack that Stavka had expected and for the moment it was decided to contest the Tula-Ryazan-Voronezh triangle. Not least fresh reserves were forming up under the operational control of the freshly deployed Voronezh Front. While there was no expectation that Tula could be held, Stavka believed that given the depth of the Soviet defensive belt this offered an opportunity to inflict severe losses on the German Panzers.

The air war continued unabated. Soviet fighter losses remained high but Soviet bombers were able to hit both the German front line divisions and major armoured concentrations.

Image

In the meantime, away from the Tula sector, the final deployments for the planned Operation Yaroslavl were being made.

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T53 (18 – 24 June 1942)

Post by loki100 »

T53 - 18-24 June 1942: “Until the Agony”

Slowly the cold of the winter, and the misery of the spring rains seemed like a period of ease as the heat built over central Russia and every movement raised clouds of dust.

At Tula, the Germans carried on with their methodical preparations. They seemed content to launch massive infantry attacks at a few strongpoints, weakening the outer Soviet defensive belt but making no real progress.

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(shows the German deployments after I'd finished my reconnaissance and bombing raids)

No one, from the riflemen in the weakened front line to Stavka located at (redacted for security reasons) had any illusion this was because the Germans lacked the determination to prosecute their attack.

In the skies, the air battles continued unabated. If the German fighters were dominant, they were also outnumbered. The result was relatively heavy losses among their bombers and reconnaissance planes. Equally the VVS was able to carry out several massive bombing raids trying to disrupt the German build up of their armoured forces.

However, it was on the Larna sector that the real drama unfolded. While Stavka accepted the need to operate on the strategic defensive in 1942, there was also a view that being too passive would allow the Germans to concentrate on their chosen targets. With what seemed to be 3 Infantry and 2 Panzer Armies around Orel, they had to be weak somewhere else. A renewal of the Rostov battles was considered and rejected for the moment.

The result was the Yaroslav Offensive [1].

Vatutin's NW Front had 2 of the most experienced armies in the Soviet OOB (52 and 55) and 4 Shock was released from Stavka reserve. The goals were the liberation of Kalinin [2] and to inflict heavy losses on the German forces in this sector. At worst, it was hoped to draw off German reserves from their own offensive at Tula.

The extent of the build up and pre-attack preparations had been detected by the Germans but the initial attack still managed a degree of operational surprise.

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The initial stage was a renewal of the nightly harassing raids by the U2s on the German infantry dug in along the 40 mile front from the Volga reservoir south of Kalinin to the Senezhkoye reservoir.

This time daylight brought no respite.

6 Air Army, reinforced to almost 900 planes struck again in the morning. A series of raids hammered both the German front line and detected reserve formations on the Larna and at Shkahovskaya.

In confusion as to the actual target, the Germans committed most of 5 Panzer division to try and shore up the lines held by 42 Infantry Corps.

However, they were too late, almost 200,000 men backed by 2,200 guns and yet more ground strikes fell on the 268 Infantry Division. Outnumbered 8-1, and with their reserves and artillery disrupted by the Soviet air attacks, they fell back abandoning their long prepared defensive positions [3].

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(Elements of 4 Shock breaching the German defensive lines)


In terms of overall numbers, I have managed to reach my target of 8 million men and am close to 100,000 guns (if there is one thing I have learned from Oshawatt, its that you can never have too many guns). Given the depth of my reserves, I can absorb an awful lot of losses and still recreate my front line armies.

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Discussion

Thought it might be useful to use that set piece attack to explore the impact of pre-attack air operations.

I hit the Germans with 2 raids. The first was their usual night time visit by the local U2s.

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As you can see, that disrupted 67 elements, mostly various artillery pieces. This was followed in by a large day time raid that disrupted another 57 (most the damage done by the Il-2s). I also bombed one of the potential reserve formations (I hadn't spotted the others)

I then did a pre-attack bombardment from some artillery brigades I raised a while back (this did no damage). The final attack was devastating.

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For comparison I then reran that final attack but without the air attacks.

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Given the randomness of the combat system, I realise that one instance is not enough, but I think some things are clear. The German base value in the second attack is higher and they have 600 more elements 'ready'. My start numbers are much the same in each case.

Its clear in the second instance the random rolls went in the German favour 450 went to 611 compared to 421-301 and against me 449-745 compared to 448-1267. But, if my CV had only gone to 745 in the first attack, I'd have still won the battle.

Not convincing proof, but enough to convince me that if an attack really matters, ground attacks in advance certainly improve your chances.

[1] – Named after one of the Princes of Tver who managed to rally early Russian resistance to the Mongols. He set in train a series of victories that threatened to reduce Moscow to a secondary power. This did not end well for Tver … after all Ivan the Terrible had to start his career somewhere.

[2] – I'm a little worried at the VP situation and retaking a few cities in the north west may give me some head room to absorb any losses in the south/centre.

[3] – I don't think there is any reason to create a lot of Infantry Corps this early but I wanted some. My view is they are not much use on the defence, as, unless it is a critical location, the Germans can go around them. They are for attacks, and as here, I'd managed to stack the equivalent of 54 CV into 2 hexes, enough to breach a level 3 fort. This also seemed to be the best use of my relatively few Gds Infantry divisions. There is a similar formation in reserve in the South.
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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942)

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: jwolf

In my admittedly limited experience with WITE, playing either side,
it seems that the German and/or Soviet air forces may take some losses,
but basically neither side can stop the other from performing its core
bombing and ground support missions. I don't know how that compares to
historical but I assume it isn't right.

As above I don't know how that compares to historical, nor in game terms if it was always helpful.
I'd be interested to hear from more veteran players about these issues.

133. Reworked the rules for Interception Air Doctrine.
Previously it was impossible to scramble more than 50-70 fighters, whether there were 100, or 200, or 300 incoming aircraft,
regardless of doctrine settings. Sometimes higher doctrine setting could result in worse CAP than lower value.
Under new rules, the game will try to scramble as much as 50% of the number of incoming aircraft when set to 100,
100% when set to 200, etc. However it will be getting progressively harder to scramble more than 25%, 50% and 75% of
the desired number of aircraft,
with each step requiring to pass one leader air skill test.

This is a MASSIVE change that will have major impact on the airwar.

People carefully read the change log.

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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942)

Post by Peltonx »

Bombing target hexes before the attack works dispite allot of people saying it does not.

It can be the little edge that pushes the numbers from a lose to a win.

The attack you won reduced the fort value from 3 to 0 and the one you lost from 3 to 2.

Hvy atry will have a greater impact dropping forts as it should under .08.

So as SHC building a few 1000 hvy guns will be more important then building a million mortars.
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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942)

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Bombing target hexes before the attack works dispite allot of people saying it does not.

It can be the little edge that pushes the numbers from a lose to a win.

The attack you won reduced the fort value from 3 to 0 and the one you lost from 3 to 2.

Hvy atry will have a greater impact dropping forts as it should under .08.

So as SHC building a few 1000 hvy guns will be more important then building a million mortars.

I agree that the gain is on the margins. What interested me in that instance was the second time it was clear that my command rolls were less effective but I'd have still won due to the bombing routines, so its a sort of insurance policy.

First time the fort was level 2 when the attack went in so that was similar (I've been using the slower combat resolution settings as I'm not exactly attacking a lot and it can be very informative). So the drop 2----0 was the result of the retreat.

Again, from this process of observation, mortars do seem to inflict a lot of disruption hits which makes them valuable - it also reflects the real Soviet OOB at this phase when they substituted masses of mortars as they had a major bottleneck in artillery production.

About the air war. Is the relatively low response to an enemy incursion the reason at the moment why we are effectively both winning on our own turn and losing on the other. In my turn, I can send in a lot of air units, both fighters and bombers and swamp any axis response. SigUp reports much the same in my turn that I commit much less than he does - which given the qualitative difference in our fighters is a recipe for disaster?

Sounds like the 1.08 version will play more intuitively - ie what you think should be going on is what is actually going on? Good to drop some of the more obtuse routines that otherwise constitute effective use of the air war.
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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942)

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Bombing target hexes before the attack works dispite allot of people saying it does not.

It can be the little edge that pushes the numbers from a lose to a win.

The attack you won reduced the fort value from 3 to 0 and the one you lost from 3 to 2.

Hvy atry will have a greater impact dropping forts as it should under .08.

So as SHC building a few 1000 hvy guns will be more important then building a million mortars.


About the air war. Is the relatively low response to an enemy incursion the reason at the moment why we are effectively both winning on our own turn and losing on the other. In my turn, I can send in a lot of air units, both fighters and bombers and swamp any axis response. SigUp reports much the same in my turn that I commit much less than he does - which given the qualitative difference in our fighters is a recipe for disaster?

Sounds like the 1.08 version will play more intuitively - ie what you think should be going on is what is actually going on? Good to drop some of the more obtuse routines that otherwise constitute effective use of the air war.

It will be historical, as in the GHC player can mass the LW and keep air superiority in any given area. But SHC will have air superiority over the rest of the front.

.01 - .07 unhistorical but WAD

.08 historical and WAD.


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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942)

Post by M60A3TTS »

The Luftwaffe lost air superiority on all fronts by the end of the war.
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RE: T47-T50 (7 May - 3 June 1942)

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

The Luftwaffe lost air superiority on all fronts by the end of the war.

Yes, but not in 42 or 43.

Which we know can easly happen without house rules.

unhistorical.
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