Turnaround? Lowpe (J) vs Tiemanj (A) Stock

[Lowpe]

m-m,

You make perfect sense, and there is a tradeoff in supply consumption, plus HI, plus more pilot draw. In 45, I am not sure it makes a difference.

I think I have a size 45 Betty bomber group...that is my large unit strike force. I do have several uber size units: a Val, a Claude, and maybe a Kate. I broke the bombers down into splinters and the Claude is training. Can you imagine the damage I could do with a size 91 sweep with Georges. The mind boggles.[X(]

As always it is probably something left for dialog between players.

[mind_messing]

As always it is probably something left for dialog between players.

Well, that's it. Lokasenna wanted no HR's, so I had a free card to run wild and create monster 81 sized groups, and he's free to slaughter them at night by 4Es flying at 2000ft.

It's the circle of life.

I do want to know, however, how one manages to create a 91 sized airgroup. They'd be pretty handy for training units...

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
I do want to know, however, how one manages to create a 91 sized airgroup. They'd be pretty handy for training units...

Nobody knows. I posted it in the first couple pages of the AAR to cries of wonder and disbelief.

I think at that point the entire Squadron, all 91, were loaded on a xak near Cam Ranh Bay. Maybe one PB for escort? Can't really remember, but I do know I was nervous.[:)]

[Lowpe]

Redemption: I sent the proper file; the Allies changed their download directory and was looking in the old directory. Feels good not to screw up...I save most of them for the game anyhow.

June 22, 1943

After 100 clicks, the night bombing at Moulmein is over. I evacuated all planes last turn, except 10 KAI Dinahs. They fight well, but with so much radar there they actually end up closing with some bombers...I am pretty sure they managed to damage at least two bombers that were later brought down by flak. So I swap a couple of Dinahs for a couple of bombers and minimal damage to the airfield. Pretty reasonable I think.

DD catch a punish an American sub with one direct hit and 16 others; but then another gets a spread off at the Jintsu (all miss) and DD hit that sub 7 times (minor). All near Singers, the first in shallows the second in deep water.

IJA bombers hit the 1000 tanks in Mandalay and grab tactical surprise -- no CAP and no Flak. Of course the results aren't great. I sent Betties too, and they did worse.

[Lowpe]

Carrier bombers raid an airfield in the Marshalls, but then Roi is nailed all morning long with raids and sweeps. Nasty weather though, but the skies clear into the afternoon to overcast...

[Lowpe]

Bold as brass!

Enemy carriers in two task forces with 100+ fighters in each. One 4 ship ASW group, and one surface group with CA/DD. Mostly DD.

[Lowpe]

If I was the Allies, I don't think I would send my ships to prowl in the shallows at this point in the war...but that is just me. The third sub in 2 days in these waters.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Not very. Most squadrons resize multiple times, with the final resize being in 1944 or 1945. So the opportunity for large groups is almost nonexistent.

Can't you bounce them on a carrier and manually increase the size? I seem to recall that being an option with a least the British and the Hermes early on.

I wonder if m-m attack on you, that nailed the Wasp was one supersized torpedo group and that was allowed it to get thru your CAP. Just don't know what to think of the strategy, as is seems very powerful for Japan, but is it an exploit? Seems that way to me.

The Kates that nailed Wasp were from a size 81 super-group.

To be quite honest, it probably is an "exploit" (if, indeed, you can really call it that), but there's no other solution to beating the Allied CAP wall with LBA. With the attackers co-ordination penalties, CAP can destroy strikes peicemeal. Then there's the wonky escort/bomber allocation - don't you just hate seeing 100 fighters escorting 10 bombers, while 50 bombers get 10 fighters as escort?

As for of resizing is an "exploit" or not, the devs added it to the game. I'm probably just the first person to tale it to the extreme and write an AAR about it.

I will grant that it's not "fair", but it's not "fair" that the Allies get vastly superior troops, ships and planes as the war progresses. What are some over-sized Japanese squadrons compared to the hoards of Fletchers and B-29's?

Obviously in a game with no HRs this is just fine. But ...

Think about this. In the endgame, with kamis, with planes like the Grace and Judy D4Y4 and escorting Sams, you will mash the Allied fleet into a pulp. There has to be a line, and with the ability to use RnD to get planes that never had an impact on the war into play in 44 or earlier, to use the overly generous PP system to but out ALL of the armor and heavy arty from Manchuria, to be able to accelerate Japanese CVs and combat ships into stages of the war that really matter, Japan is a LOT stronger than it ever could have been in the war. Fun, yes, but up to what point?

So where is the line in what will break the game? Well, make 10 of these groups with 81 planes, get Graces/Judys into them and Sams in 81 plane escort groups (although you may not even need escorts as some will get through any CAP with their speed) and see how far the Allies can advance. [:)]

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Obviously in a game with no HRs this is just fine. But ...

Think about this. In the endgame, with kamis, with planes like the Grace and Judy D4Y4 and escorting Sams, you will mash the Allied fleet into a pulp. There has to be a line, and with the ability to use RnD to get planes that never had an impact on the war into play in 44 or earlier, to use the overly generous PP system to but out ALL of the armor and heavy arty from Manchuria, to be able to accelerate Japanese CVs and combat ships into stages of the war that really matter, Japan is a LOT stronger than it ever could have been in the war. Fun, yes, but up to what point?

So where is the line in what will break the game? Well, make 10 of these groups with 81 planes, get Graces/Judys into them and Sams in 81 plane escort groups (although you may not even need escorts as some will get through any CAP with their speed) and see how far the Allies can advance.

I think we may need to agree to disagree on this issue.

I'd counter and ask where's the fun when the Allies form a late-war CV deathstar with CAP aircraft numbering in the thousands and eat up fragmented Japanese strikes bit by bit? Or any number of 4E related moves that Japan struggles to counter.

Japan has a lot more flexibility than the Allies in terms of production, that's a given, but the quantity and quality factors are both firmly in the Allied sphere. In light of this, I find complaints about balance somewhat...weak. The odds are stacked so heavily against Japan in the late-war that 81 sized squadrons won't do much to change it.

It's hardly as if 81 sized groups are something that the Allies don't have a counter to, or that Japan can do for more cost: they're planes, they need airbases to fly from, airframes to fly, pilots to fly them and supply to operate.

Sure, they may be three times as effective, but they're three times as exposed and three times as costly.

At the end of the day, we won't know where the line is till we cross it. We've came this far, may as well keep going. At the very least we'll provide a good reference point for people who're considering a game with no HR's.

[topeverest]

Missing by 1 million on your goal seems a large number to me. Late war could begin at any moment, should the allies go for Luzon or Taiwan. Seems less likely given the style of play, but it could happen.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

It is almost July, of 1943 and I have now over 3.2 million supply in the HI, and just a hair under 5 million total. My goal was 6 million, but I think it may be worthwhile to try and get more if the Allies let me.

I have added over 300K in the last month. My next turn I will adopt some more stringent supply savings and see if I can't grow that number by 10% or more.

Right now Burma is being supplied from Palembang; while China is on their own. The HI does ship to the Islands.

I continue to believe this is the most important economic hurdle.

[DanSez]

Have you tried Pets as your slow to rise, night time cap disruptor?
Alf has a slower rise than the Dinah = do you have any of those set to night cap?

Pete has the same climb rate as the Irving-S IIRC.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: obvert

Obviously in a game with no HRs this is just fine. But ...

Think about this. In the endgame, with kamis, with planes like the Grace and Judy D4Y4 and escorting Sams, you will mash the Allied fleet into a pulp. There has to be a line, and with the ability to use RnD to get planes that never had an impact on the war into play in 44 or earlier, to use the overly generous PP system to but out ALL of the armor and heavy arty from Manchuria, to be able to accelerate Japanese CVs and combat ships into stages of the war that really matter, Japan is a LOT stronger than it ever could have been in the war. Fun, yes, but up to what point?

So where is the line in what will break the game? Well, make 10 of these groups with 81 planes, get Graces/Judys into them and Sams in 81 plane escort groups (although you may not even need escorts as some will get through any CAP with their speed) and see how far the Allies can advance.

I think we may need to agree to disagree on this issue.

I'd counter and ask where's the fun when the Allies form a late-war CV deathstar with CAP aircraft numbering in the thousands and eat up fragmented Japanese strikes bit by bit? Or any number of 4E related moves that Japan struggles to counter.

Japan has a lot more flexibility than the Allies in terms of production, that's a given, but the quantity and quality factors are both firmly in the Allied sphere. In light of this, I find complaints about balance somewhat...weak. The odds are stacked so heavily against Japan in the late-war that 81 sized squadrons won't do much to change it.

It's hardly as if 81 sized groups are something that the Allies don't have a counter to, or that Japan can do for more cost: they're planes, they need airbases to fly from, airframes to fly, pilots to fly them and supply to operate.

Sure, they may be three times as effective, but they're three times as exposed and three times as costly.

At the end of the day, we won't know where the line is till we cross it. We've came this far, may as well keep going. At the very least we'll provide a good reference point for people who're considering a game with no HR's.

There is no disagreement. I'm not saying this is somehow bad for you in your game. Just asking where the line is with no HRs. I've been in the late war and Japan is actually much stronger than you're arguing it is, not that it necessarily should be. The Allies are weak in 42 (I'm finding out the hard way just how weak) and Japan is weak late. The decent is long and grueling, but there are days with rewards. You can do quite a bit of damage, even with a partially intact KB and some LBA with combined kami/DB/TB strikes. For me it was all about how I could be creative enough to still have an effect and continue to slow the process.

Do what you want. It's your game! I'll be interested to see how it all works out. [:)]

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: topeverest
Missing by 1 million on your goal seems a large number to me. Late war could begin at any moment, should the allies go for Luzon or Taiwan. Seems less likely given the style of play, but it could happen.

Clarification: By Jan 1 1944 I want to have 6 million supplies. If I can hold the northern SRA I should get there by sometime in Sept; I am thinking of raising my goal to 7 million supply.[:)]

[Lowpe]

I never thought of using size 81 Kamikaze groups -- at what point would you actually run out of Naval pilots?

This game really rewards concentration of force, but it is a for me at least a game that I want to have fun with first and foremost, and win (or in the case of Japan not lose) secondly.

So no size 81 kamikazes for me...for no HR games go for it! Just have fun and chronicle the results.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: DanSez

Have you tried Pets as your slow to rise, night time cap disruptor?
Alf has a slower rise than the Dinah = do you have any of those set to night cap?

Pete has the same climb rate as the Irving-S IIRC.

That is such an excellent idea...I am off to check the climb rates on all the floats![&o]

I will definitely give Petes a chance here, their climb rate is 300 faster than Dinah but might be slow enough. Glen would be great, but cheesy since there are no forward firing guns.

Really, really great idea. I have a huge pool of Petes and now I have a great use other than training![&o] Or, at least that is the plan.

[Lowpe]

Forcing the river crossing northwest of Kweiyang, lots of bombers, fighters flying in support from all over. I hope the bombers don't suffer too much from LRCAP. I think they will be all right, but you never know with weather and timing. This will be a huge battle...

Set up my first Pete night interceptor squadron at Bangkok. Take a day or two to repair the planes, and for the pilots to show up. The Endo Detachment and some Dinah's are at Bangkok too.

1000 Allied tanks are trying to clear the Burma road in JR terrain. Not much to stop them yet, some Heavy Artillery and RTA troops and some IJA Tanks. An IJA Division with 43 squads is on their way, as well as some AT guns.

Allied deathstar of carriers is steaming around near Kusaie...lots of subs chasing them but no joy yet. Actually, I am trying to guess where they will go.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I never thought of using size 81 Kamikaze groups -- at what point would you actually run out of Naval pilots?

This game really rewards concentration of force, but it is a for me at least a game that I want to have fun with first and foremost, and win (or in the case of Japan not lose) secondly.

So no size 81 kamikazes for me...for no HR games go for it! Just have fun and chronicle the results.

Depends on your scenario. Scen 2? Maybe never. Scen 1? Definitely possible.

[DanSez]

(float fighters)
If nothing else, spreading the Petes and Alfs around will give more night cap coverage to blunt surprise target attacks.

(kamis)
In the Downfall scenario, aren't there some pretty large air units that can be sent on kami missions?

My thoughts would be to set up 2-4 81 sized training units early and then in the late game when there is no need or time for more training - convert them to kamis and hold them back to blunt an invasion task force.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: DanSez

In the Downfall scenario, aren't there some pretty large air units that can be sent on kami missions?

There is a monster Shinden Kamikaze group in downfall![X(]

I don't know how well they perform -- m-m has only flown small groups at me.

[Lowpe]

June 22, 1943

No night bombing.

Massed Allied bombing in Marshalls...but the Japanese air forces had relocated.

China:

Warrant Officer Chiba loved his new airplane. The Oscar IV. She was lithe, and danced like a geisha girl. So enticing. Her dual centerline cannons made her kiss equally as deadly.

As Chiba circled lazily over the rough terrain northwest of Kweiyang, where no Chinese fighter dared so himself, he watched the battle unfold below at the river crossing.

Japanese infantry divisions forded the river from the heavy fortifications that the Chinese had simply abandoned after incurring so much expense in making. Unfathomable. The artillery pounded the Chinese;s hastily dug entrenchments, and wave after wave of Army bombers brought chaos and death from the skies to the helpless defenders.

It was on the right flank, where the brave 68th Division first crossed, supported by tanks. It started quickly, and finished even faster as the Chinese abandoned weapons, and semi-prepared positions to flee. It was a rout.

The only regret Chiba had was that the Chinese Fighters didn't show up.