[FIXED B484] Stealth

[Stevechase]

ORIGINAL: Bigfish

It was a Serbian Colonel who perfected it and then did it with one of his SA-3 batteries, there was an article about him in JED many years ago...

This was also reported and explaind on german TV i think 2 years ago. In fact if you know how to combine two (modern) radar sites it seems to be quite easy to detect stealth aircrafts.

The F-117 is still over 30 years of age, the B-2 ist over 20 years of age. So it is not a special thing to detect it with younger electronic equipment. Today this old stealth aircrafts onyl useful against old "third world" air defense systems. Modern first class radar sites detect these old stealth planes on suitable range - this was the conclusion of the TV report.

Was this a documentary? If so that conclusion is downright wrong. And I would not put tremendous faith in any of that information. While it has become "easier" to detect stealth (and easier is an extremely relative term when applied to stealth detection). It is far far let me repeat far from that description.

[mikeCK]

Yeah, I agree. I had read about the Serbian shoot down of the F-117. It was my understanding that he changed some frequencies and such on the radar so as to detect the aircraft. Problem is that he could not use it for search. In other words, you had to know generally where the plane was going to be. In that case, the Air Force had become lazy and was using the same egress routes over and over so the radar operator did - in fact- know geney where it was going to be.

That is quite different from successfully finding, locking and hitting a 117 with an integrated air defense network when the route isn't broadcast.
Either way, that is 70's tech and modern aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 are far more stealthy. It doesn't need to make you invisible...just undetectable long enough to get in range

[Bigfish]

Was this a documentary?

Yes i think it was an documentray origin from BBC shown on german n-tv or n24.

[frosen]

What about stealth capacity of ships?

I tried USS Zumwalt and HMS Visby (both stealth) without any sensors on and they were both picked up by radar on a russian DDG (EM Sovremenny) at about 20-25 Nm. As a comparison I also added a non stealth MCM-vessel who was basically picked up at the same range.

[APUFire]

The -117 or any stealth aircraft carrying ordinance isn't very stealthy when the bomb-bays open for weapon release.

[frosen]

Can anyone from the dev team answer if the stealth features of ships are actually modeled or not? It seems not to me.

ORIGINAL: frosen

What about stealth capacity of ships?

I tried USS Zumwalt and HMS Visby (both stealth) without any sensors on and they were both picked up by radar on a russian DDG (EM Sovremenny) at about 20-25 Nm. As a comparison I also added a non stealth MCM-vessel who was basically picked up at the same range.

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: frosen

Can anyone from the dev team answer if the stealth features of ships are actually modeled or not? It seems not to me.

ORIGINAL: frosen

What about stealth capacity of ships?

I tried USS Zumwalt and HMS Visby (both stealth) without any sensors on and they were both picked up by radar on a russian DDG (EM Sovremenny) at about 20-25 Nm. As a comparison I also added a non stealth MCM-vessel who was basically picked up at the same range.

Can you please post a save from the situation at which you encountered this problem, so that we can investigate it? Thanks!

[orca]

I had similar experience- for me a zumwalt was detected at the same range as a carrier by the radar from a bear. I attached the save from that "test" scenario. At least in my experience, RCS for ships isn't working.

[frosen]

I'm unfortunately not allowed to upload anything it seems...

But it's a very simple situation: just add a couple of stealth ships on open ocean with sensors off and a couple of non stealth ships also with sensors off. Let them travel at same speed and course towards a ship with a potent radar and see at what range they get detected and compare with the non stealth ship.

I hope this is sufficient, thanks for looking in to it!

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

ORIGINAL: frosen

Can anyone from the dev team answer if the stealth features of ships are actually modeled or not? It seems not to me.

ORIGINAL: frosen

What about stealth capacity of ships?

I tried USS Zumwalt and HMS Visby (both stealth) without any sensors on and they were both picked up by radar on a russian DDG (EM Sovremenny) at about 20-25 Nm. As a comparison I also added a non stealth MCM-vessel who was basically picked up at the same range.

Can you please post a save from the situation at which you encountered this problem, so that we can investigate it? Thanks!

[IWS]

According to the DB, the Zumwalt has about 1/9 the radar cross-section (RCS) of a Ticonderoga-class cruiser at low frequencies and about 1/90 at high frequencies.

It's a still big radar target, but would be an even bigger one without reduced RCS.

[orca]

Just checking to see if there was any clarification on the RCS issues previously reported. I did simple test scenario and an E-2 detected a 7m civilian small boat, a zumwalt, and an ultra-large commercial container vessel at essentially the same range. So it seems like different detection ranges based on different RCS is not currently modeled (or at least working).

[Dutchie999]

ORIGINAL: orca

Just checking to see if there was any clarification on the RCS issues previously reported. I did simple test scenario and an E-2 detected a 7m civilian small boat, a zumwalt, and an ultra-large commercial container vessel at essentially the same range. So it seems like different detection ranges based on different RCS is not currently modeled (or at least working).

It is modelled.

FRO SIDE REAR TOP
Civilian small boat
Radar, A-D Band (30-2000 MHz) 3.1 4.3 3.1 5.1
Radar, E-M Band (2-100 GHz) 3.1 4.3 3.1 5.1

Zumwalt
Radar, A-D Band (30-2000 MHz) 27.1 29.7 27.1 30.5
Radar, E-M Band (2-100 GHz) 17.1 19.7 17.1 20.5

Arleigh Burke Class
Radar, A-D Band (30-2000 MHz) 32.4 34.9 32.4 35.7
Radar, E-M Band (2-100 GHz) 32.4 34.9 32.4 35.7

Ultra large container vessel
Radar, A-D Band (30-2000 MHz) 45.2 48.1 45.2 48.9
Radar, E-M Band (2-100 GHz) 45.2 48.1 45.2 48.9

[Tomcat84]

ORIGINAL: orca

Just checking to see if there was any clarification on the RCS issues previously reported. I did simple test scenario and an E-2 detected a 7m civilian small boat, a zumwalt, and an ultra-large commercial container vessel at essentially the same range. So it seems like different detection ranges based on different RCS is not currently modeled (or at least working).

Could you post your sample scenario?

How high is the E-2 flying? Is it possible that they are all being detected at same range because the deciding factor is not RCS but simply the radar horizon for the E-2? Just a thought.

[ComDev]

Yeah the 'problem' is that the radar is extremely powerful and B-band so not too much affected bt stealth shaping. There is also a balance issue with powerful radars vs sea clutter that we are aware of and that will be looked into after Christmas.

Thanks [8D]

[Dutchie999]

ORIGINAL: emsoy

Yeah the 'problem' is that the radar is extremely powerful and B-band so not too much affected bt stealth shaping. There is also a balance issue with powerful radars vs sea clutter that we are aware of and that will be looked into after Christmas.

Thanks [8D]

Emsoy am I correct in assuming you build the radar-part of the database? I am wondering why you sanchwiched band A to D and E to M together and not put in every band on its own?

[orca]

I changed the "test". Instead of an E-2 I used a Seasprite helicopter which has a less powerful radar. The zumwalt and the extra large container ship were detected at exactly the same range as each other (but less that the range they were detected by the E-2). The 7m craft was detected at a shorter range. I know virtually nothing about what affects radar detection ranges but it doesn't seem right that a supposedly very stealthy ship (zumwalt) is detected at the same distance as a massive non stealthy ship.

I did another test with the seasprite coming from the side and the detection distances were exactly the same. I added another supposedly stealthy ship (la fayatte) which was also detected at the same range. Shouldn't front/side detection's be different?

I only could attach 1 pic so it's of the first scenario

[Spookyashell]

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

That sounds a bit strange. Are you sure you were detected by radar and not visually? Can you please post a save from just prior to being detected? Thanks!

Does it? It's not like stealth planes are totally invisible to radar. They are just harder to pick up.
From what I read if you have a triangle of radars they are quite effective at picking up stealth planes.

[Dutchie999]

ORIGINAL: Spookyashell

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

That sounds a bit strange. Are you sure you were detected by radar and not visually? Can you please post a save from just prior to being detected? Thanks!

Does it? It's not like stealth planes are totally invisible to radar. They are just harder to pick up.
From what I read if you have a triangle of radars they are quite effective at picking up stealth planes.

Depends on the airplane. Does it have all aspect stealth? Anyway picking up the airplane on radar is only part of it. Effectively illuminating it with a S/X radar is another thing.

[scottb613]

Hi Folks,

Just an OBTW - just drove past the Zumwalt this morning as the sun was coming up - man - she's not a pretty ship...
[:)]

Regards,
Scott

[Dutchie999]

ORIGINAL: scottb613

Hi Folks,

Just an OBTW - just drove past the Zumwalt this morning as the sun was coming up - man - she's not a pretty ship...
[:)]

Regards,
Scott

And not cheap either...

The Zumwalt was originally estimated to cost about $3.8 billion, but so much technology crammed on board that its cost has nearly doubled, and after the first three are built, production will stop. Including the exhaustive research and development required by each vessel to total cost jumps to $7 billion apiece.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-uss- ... th-2012-06

Could have easily bought three Arleigh Burke Class destroyers for that kind of money. 3x 96 VLS versus 1x 80 VLS [:(]