See you in Tokyo Bay - Apbarog(A) vs Walker(J) DBB-B Scen28

[jmalter]

Hi apb,

Glad that you found some of my suggestions useful. Given your experience, I was a bit hesitent to tell you 'what you should do', but thought you'd appreciate a bit of input from an AFB.

So my general advice is, try to save what you can from the initial debacle. Support LCUs w/ lots of Nav & Air support are valuable assets that should be preserved. Naval Auxiliaries are more valuable if they withdraw to the rear, they won't have any value if they're sunk. Dutch search-plane Dorniers can gradually be upgraded to PBY-5s, if you don't let them be destroued.

You can preserve a log of stuff, that will provide air/naval support during 1942.

[apbarog]

I do appreciate the comments and suggestions. There's always something new to learn in this game, no matter how long one has been playing. My experience has been 99% on the Japanese side, and in all stock games, until this one. So I do have plenty to learn. Not to mention managing stacking limits. I will take your advice on the Dorniers. I have the Dutch ARD's on the move to safety now, but they move so slowly, and run out of fuel every turn. I'm hoping that a huge xAK can keep them refueled on the way.

So YES, comment, criticize, suggest, it's all welcome!

[apbarog]

15 Dec 41

Ternate is invaded, 3 PT boats engage twice during the turn, but no hits land for either side. Dutch bombers attempt to hit the ships as they leave, but again, no hits achieved.

The first (reported) torpedo hit by US subs, with Snapper hitting a big xAP loaded with troops between Formosa and the northern Phillipines. Damage is estimated as minimal (or the hit didn't even occur) with no reported damage or fire, but some troops reported lost.

Dutch sub KXV takes a shot at CA Mogami, south of Cam Ranh Bay, but misses.

Manila is heavily bombed, with ARD Dewey hit, as well as the shipyard and port. Nothing to worry about at this point.

Hong Kong falls. The Japanese has used a large number of bombers here for the past week. They are now freed up to go elsewhere.

Georgetown falls.

Fairly quiet turn all in all. I'm moving 2/3 of the Flying Tigers into China to set up a trap or two soon. The Japanese have been bombing from day one in China, and everything here is not being escorted. I do worry about using up supply for aircraft, but these units are restricted, and I'm not sure it's worth buying them out when they don't stick around too long.

I wish I had an operation name for my evacuation of Singapore, and my extraction of all of the oil and fuel that I can, because these operations have been flawless so far. Not saying it's the best strategy, just the one I'm choosing, and so far there has been no interference in either.

UNNAMED OPERATIONS PROCEEDING AS PLANNED. STOP.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: apbarog

From my experience as a Japanese player in the stock game, ACMs are the mine tenders, tending 150 each for the Japanese. It may be that things have changed in DBB.

We are both sort of right - the US Alder class ACMs have no mine capacity and would only be useful as mine tenders. The larger Chimo class mine tender carries 20 mines so it is a mine layer, but given the dearth of replacement mines it could certainly be used as a mine tender while waiting for mine stocks.

I still believe AMs are able to tend mines as I have used them disbanded in port to stop minefield decay. It seems to work, but I will have to do some record keeping to show it. You are correct that the manual does not mention mine field maintenance as a mission for AMs, but it does say they can be in a Support TF.

I am not a big fan of mines in the game anyway because of the way the AI treats discovery of the minefields (hit one mine and you or the enemy know where the whole minefield is) and the unrealistic production rate for Allied mines. Having one of your own ships hit one of your mines is the last straw! [:(]

[jmalter]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: apbarog

From my experience as a Japanese player in the stock game, ACMs are the mine tenders, tending 150 each for the Japanese. It may be that things have changed in DBB.

We are both sort of right - the US Alder class ACMs have no mine capacity and would only be useful as mine tenders. The larger Chimo class mine tender carries 20 mines so it is a mine layer, but given the dearth of replacement mines it could certainly be used as a mine tender while waiting for mine stocks.

I still believe AMs are able to tend mines as I have used them disbanded in port to stop minefield decay. It seems to work, but I will have to do some record keeping to show it. You are correct that the manual does not mention mine field maintenance as a mission for AMs, but it does say they can be in a Support TF.

I am not a big fan of mines in the game anyway because of the way the AI treats discovery of the minefields (hit one mine and you or the enemy know where the whole minefield is) and the unrealistic production rate for Allied mines. Having one of your own ships hit one of your mines is the last straw! [:(]

AFAIK, only ACM types (fuelled but disbanded in port) will tend Minefields - but I'd welcome any evidence to the contrary!

A change listed in michaelm's public-beta thread shows that the 1123x8 beta allows ACMs to service mines using their own fuel, regardless of (lack of) port fuel availability.

Generally, I've found it difficult to determine which mines listed w/ available in-pool stocks can be used by available mine-layers - especially when using level-bombers in a 'lay mines / city attack' mission. Further, I've a vague memory from a post, that aerial mine-laying missions create multiple small minefields, rather than combining or adding to 'One Big Minefield'.

Historically, B-29s made a big mine-laying effort, yet I can't determine what mines I need in my pools to create a decent minefield.

Also too, Richard Frank writes in his Guadalcanal book, that a USN DD struck a USN mine at Noumea, at the beginning of the Guadalcanal campaign. In the game, I've never seen an own-goal minefield attack (or ASW air-strike), I don't think the game allows this kind of mistake.

[apbarog]

16 Dec 41

2 units of the Flying Tigers are moving into position in China for an ambush tomorrow. US DD's go after I-9 southwest of San Francisco but get no hits. At least he knows I'm looking. High detection level means that he's gotten a good look at one of the US carriers returning to the West Coast. CV Enterprise has a nuisance level of damage due to a collision with DD Ellet. Enterprise has 5 SYS, 1FLT, and 7 ENG. DD Ellet has 6 SYS, 25 FLT, and 4 ENG.

Kavieng and Manando are invaded.
Ternate is taken.

[apbarog]

General Update: Malaysia and Borneo

Every Allied base in Malaysia is covered sufficiently to prevent para landings. A huge evacuation has taken place, leaving Singapore with less than 200 AV. I'm hoping the a huge Japanese commitment to take Singapore still takes place. Recon showed over 20 units at Singora last turn, although some, surprisingly, show a movement arrow north. He may know what I've been up to. Regardless, he still has to clear the peninsula. Another cargo task force full of fuel is leaving Singapore.

Enemy task forces approach the Kuching area. Carrier sit further offshore. Subs move to cause some trouble.

[apbarog]

[b}Phillipines:[/b]

Landings in the northern Phillipines still appear to be light. No movement south seen yet. His main landing on Luzon has been on Naga, which appears to be being reinforced. On Mindanao, Cagayan and Davao have been taken. No moverment from these bases either.

I just dropped a minefield off of Naga.

[apbarog]

Solomons:

Kavieng is invaded. Other task forces are apparently on the way to Rabaul. A significant chunk has been evacuated from Rabaul, leaving about 100 vehicles of one unit, and the base unit that starts there.

I'm airlifting the tiny units out of New Guinea, and the bulk of forces at Port Moresby has been pulled out.

Although it has taken a week for any ships to show around Rabaul, it's been several days since KB was sighted near Wake, and this area is a possible destination for the early KB world tour.

[jmalter]

Your opponent's efforts may well outstrip & outrange your efforts to withdraw, consequently you'll be laid back on your heels. IMO, efforts to preserve baseforce LCUs, airgroups & naval auxiliary ships will you 'hold the line' in 1942. The game will allow you to purchase destroyed units, but the air-group costs are prohibitive, or the buy-back of a destroyed LCU gets you a permanently-restricted [R] unit at San Francisco. Far better to preserve a bit of on-map unit, & bring it back to a safe base for rest.

[apbarog]

My evacuations from Malaysia/Singapore are 95% accomplished, with most units on the way to Ceylon. I will combine what I can there, then distribute, mostly to India proper. I'm not evacuating Dutch forces, except for some search planes, so far. My Singapore evacuations are my plan for bolstering India and possibly Ceylon eventually. I'm not trying to defend Ceylon heavily to begin with, figuring if he comes hard for it early, it will be his, no matter what I put there.

My aggressiveness in the Phillipines has helped me with this evacuation, I think, as it gave him the impression that I was going to be very aggressive.

I want to be more aggressive with the US and Dutch fleets, but just haven't had a good opportunity. An example is what you see on the map with Borneo, showing a surface fleet blocking Kuching, essentially. He is being careful and thorough. I am not going to throw away my ships for little gain, but I won't be afraid to take a risk where the worst that can happen is an even trade. But fighting battleships isn't in my plans.

My Singapore strategy is an extreme one, I admit that. It's a good one if he overcommits to the theater and doesn't take it significantly faster. It's a bad one if he figures out what I've done and tailors his forces accordingly, allowing him to move faster in another direction. Who knows. If he goes India and I helped beef India up, then it works out for me. That's what makes this game so interesting.

He will be disappointed to eventually take Balikpapan, Palembang, and Java, and find little to no fuel.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: jmalter

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: apbarog

From my experience as a Japanese player in the stock game, ACMs are the mine tenders, tending 150 each for the Japanese. It may be that things have changed in DBB.

We are both sort of right - the US Alder class ACMs have no mine capacity and would only be useful as mine tenders. The larger Chimo class mine tender carries 20 mines so it is a mine layer, but given the dearth of replacement mines it could certainly be used as a mine tender while waiting for mine stocks.

I still believe AMs are able to tend mines as I have used them disbanded in port to stop minefield decay. It seems to work, but I will have to do some record keeping to show it. You are correct that the manual does not mention mine field maintenance as a mission for AMs, but it does say they can be in a Support TF.

I am not a big fan of mines in the game anyway because of the way the AI treats discovery of the minefields (hit one mine and you or the enemy know where the whole minefield is) and the unrealistic production rate for Allied mines. Having one of your own ships hit one of your mines is the last straw! [:(]

AFAIK, only ACM types (fuelled but disbanded in port) will tend Minefields - but I'd welcome any evidence to the contrary!

A change listed in michaelm's public-beta thread shows that the 1123x8 beta allows ACMs to service mines using their own fuel, regardless of (lack of) port fuel availability.

Generally, I've found it difficult to determine which mines listed w/ available in-pool stocks can be used by available mine-layers - especially when using level-bombers in a 'lay mines / city attack' mission. Further, I've a vague memory from a post, that aerial mine-laying missions create multiple small minefields, rather than combining or adding to 'One Big Minefield'.

Historically, B-29s made a big mine-laying effort, yet I can't determine what mines I need in my pools to create a decent minefield.

Also too, Richard Frank writes in his Guadalcanal book, that a USN DD struck a USN mine at Noumea, at the beginning of the Guadalcanal campaign. In the game, I've never seen an own-goal minefield attack (or ASW air-strike), I don't think the game allows this kind of mistake.

The DD sunk in August 1942 by U.S. mines was the Tucker. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Tucker_(DD-374)

There was an AP transport - President Coolidge, sunk by US mines at Espiritu Santo in October 1942. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_President_Coolidge

I have had two vessels hit my own mines. The mine type that was listed for their loss was Allied.
I think the game treats it similarly to grounding - there is a random chance it will happen from the ship straying off course or from drifting mines in a decaying field.

[apbarog]

18 Dec 41

With the fall of Hong Kong, the Japanese start sweeping mines there. At Manado, S-37 torpedoes and sinks Jap DMS W-14, the first Japanese sunk by Allied subs. Heavy cruiser Myoko hits a newly laid mine one hex from Naga. No fires or damage reported.

In China, my opponent shifts his bombing targets, ruining my Flying Tiger's trap that was about to be sprung. They'll sit for a turn or two and see what develops.

In Malaysia, the first attack at Alor Star is an even 1 to 1, with the Allies taking twice the number of casualties. It will fall quickly.

Kuching is invaded.

Manando is captured.

In the Solomons, Rabaul is invaded. It is very weakly defended. At Kavieng, the I/66th Naval Guard unit shock attacks the 2/1st Ind Coy, getting a 1 to 2 attack, and the Japs take 104 casualties, with the Allies taking only 9. More importantly, some or all of KB appears near Shortlands.

The first big transport task forces start loading at San Francisco. Destinations will be Christmas Island, Hawaii, New Zealand, and Australia. The liner Queen Elizabeth goes into shipyard repair for 9 days, just enough to be fixed entirely, and be ready on day 10 for the first part of the Americal Division to load. Destination to be determined.

[apbarog]

19 Dec 41

With Ternate captured, CVL Zuiho is spotted and attacked just southeast of Ternate. Dutch bombers attempt their best, but are fought off by 9 Zeros, and some bombers are lost. 2 bombers drop their bombs but miss. His positioning suggests he's moving further south, possible to Ambon very soon.

Task forces leave San Francisco for many locations. DD Ellet makes it to San Diego, for a week of shipyard repair after its carrier collision.

Allied guns at Kuching get a few hits on xAKL's still unloading there.

A Japanese minesweeper sweeps a mine the old fashioned way at Hong Kong.

Dutch sub KIX gets a torpedo hit on an xAK.

Wenchow is visited by battleships Ise and Nagato, which do moderate damage to the base. The main damage is port and airfield, which will prevent forts from building for awhile. It's tempting to move subs to the area, or mine Wenchow, as the battleships appeared to be unescorted. But I have nothing in the immediate area.

KB disappears, seen last turn near Shortlands. A small Allied transport force, which aborted its run to Rabaul to pick up move vehicles, gets spotted east of Cairns. Could be KB, could be a sub. The task force runs for Cairns.

For the first time, Singapore is swept by Zeros and Oscars. The Buffaloes have numerical superiority, but take twice the losses, considering ops losses also. He's flying long range at the moment, and I'll take those losses for now. Most of my pilots survived.

Rabaul is taken, as is Sorong.

In Malaysia, Taiping and Alor Star are captured.

Kuching holds again! Japanese losses are three times the Allied losses.

In the world of intel, the Japanese 33rd Division, which I've been intel tracking for awhile, is still loaded on ships and is now headed to Bangkok.

[apbarog]

20 Dec 41

Tarawa and Makin are invaded. Many Bettys from Thailand bomb Kuching, helping the struggling attackers. Japanese recon in China gets a good look at Sian, where some of the Flying Tigers were sitting.

In a mountain hex southeast of Sian, the Japanese do a bombardment attack. They have the advantage for the moment, but the mountains may save the Chinese. Reinforcements are moving in but need a few days.

Tavoy is captured. The weak Brit base force retreats south, dooming it unless it is airlifted out.

Makin and Tarawa are captured.

And Kuching is captured.

I'm getting a better picture of the patrol patterns of the Japanese subs around Hawaii. I still need more time to get some decent air ASW skills built up, but I have a few destroyer groups dropping charges here and there.

[apbarog]

21 Dec 41

An undetermined part of KB shows east of Townsville. 2 small AKL's along with Guam escapee Penguin are sunk at Cairns. There is little I can do. Few Australian bombers with almost no naval skill would be no match. Fortunately, I spotted KB several turns ago near Shortlands, and started evacuating shipping along the east coast of Australia. He could raid up and down the coast, but get little for it. I do have a couple of US fighter units from the Phillipines in Australia. They are defending Sydney for now. I suspect that this is just a raid. Rabaul is taken, but nothing further south, yet.

An additional Japanese unit is landing at Kavieng, where he didn't land enough in his first landing. I am airlifting the small company there to Port Moresby. Port Moresby is low on supply, but with KB about, there's no point in trying to sneak in a task force.

B17's at Charter Towers add to the naval search.


In China, he spots my units moving out of Pakhoi toward the city on the coast towards Hong Kong. He rowboat captured it, and it has LI, so I hope to take it back for awhile, and at least force a movement in that direction. Sonias bomb my Pakhoi unit. A US fighter group that was transitting from the Phillipines is in position to long range cap Pakhoi next turn.

Some units, including a regiment part of an Hawaiian division, is being diverted to Australia, instead of Hawaii. I doubt that he's coming to Hawaii. His current naval force locations don't point that way.

[apbarog]

22 Dec 41

After appearing near Townsville, Australia, KB disappears. So it appears to have just been a quick raid looking for targets of opportunity. But KB is here, for now, and I need to keep that in mind.

AVP Poolster was fleeing northern Borneo after the fall of Kuching. It is sunk by I-157 on the way to Java.

Singapore is swept heavily by Zeros and Oscars. The Buffaloes are worn down, and suffer. I'll check the actual losses, but I think it may be time to leave.

2nd Malay battalion, on the rail north of Kuala Lumpur, is bombed heavily. In turn, British bombers return the favor on two Japanese units. This is the first use of the British bombers on ground units, so my opponent wasn't capping them. That, of course, will change. (2nd Malay battalion is destroyed)

Kudat, on the north coast of Borneo, is invaded.

In China, in the critical mountain hex near Kaoping, east of Sian (88,41), the Japanese get a 1 to 1, with the Chinese taking slightly heavier casualties. I have another Chinese unit about to move into the hex.

And Kavieng is lost.

[apbarog]

China: First signs of the impending doom

Two areas of concern: Canton and Sinyang.

At Canton, it appears that all of the units that attacked Hong Kong have come back north to Canton. Showing 19 units there now. I'm worried that he may go east out of Canton and head to the Kukong area. I'd rather he went straight north, on the bad trail.

More importantly, showing 10 units at Sinyang all of a sudden, and he's moved north toward Nanyang. I'm sure that he hopes to cut off the units in Loyang and Chengchow. I'm still going to defend these cities, but most units are pulling out, heading to Nanyang directly or onto the bad trail toward Sian. Nanyang, being in the clear, is ultimately not defendable. But I need to delay.

This game is using stacking limits. I'm about to get a lesson on how stacking limits affects defense. I will do all I can to defend in bad terrain, but that means giving up (clear) terrain.

[apbarog]

I did reconsider pulling all the Buffalos from Singapore. Losses last turn were almost even, after ops losses. He lost 10 Zeros and 9 Oscars. I lost 19 Buffalos. I only lost 3 pilots KIA. He must have lost more. So I'll trade losses until I run out of planes.

[apbarog]

23 Dec 41

A rare sub on sub combat occurs. I-162 takes a shot at Dutch sub KXIII near the northwest tip of Borneo, and misses.

Brave motor torpedo boat 10 moves around the northeast tip of Borneo and engages ships landing men at Kudat. A destroyer takes a shot at the MTB, misses, and the MTB launches a torpedo in return, and misses. MTB 10 heads back to base. Kudat falls.

I-170 takes a shot at CL Adelaide near Newcastle, Australia, and misses.

Bettys from Manando drop bombs on a motor torpedo boat squadron at Balikpapan, and miss. Balikpapan is no longer safe for continuing the great fuel draining operation.

A small minesweeper at Palembang is spotted. Palembang is no longer safe either. I'll keep pulling out fuel from Oosthaven as long as possible.

Buin is invaded. KB is still not seen.

At Legaspi, the routed Phillipine units that retreated the "wrong way" are eliminated. The Japanese have 4 infantry regiments, 2 engineer regiments, and some artillery here. There is nothing between him and Manila now. He's using a small armored unit to quickly take each base on the way, and he'll rail everyone else to the front. Nothing I can do about that now.

China gets very ugly very quickly. Just north of Sinyang(LABEL 1), a Japanese attack in the woods gets a 2 to 1 and routs the defenders. It's all clear terrain for him now to Nanyang. Jap casualties are 776 and almost all are disabled. Chinese casualties are 5442 and 99% of that are destroyed.

Just south of Chengchow(LABEL 2), Japanese forces cross the river in force and rout weak Chinese units. Casualties are similar to near Sinyang, except that Chinese casualties are about 50% destroyed. This attack breaks the front, and a complete exodus of Chengchow and Loyang are ordered. Tsiaotso, just northeast of Loyang, will be defended. Everyone heads for more defensible terrain. Calls everywhere are heard "Head for the times 3 terrain!". (In Chinese, of course)

In the mountains north of Chengchow(LABEL 3), Japanese forces again attack, and get a 1 to 1, but the Chinese take 3 times the casualties. I have a unit with about 120 AV arriving in the hex this turn, but it may not be enough. Getting anything to this area will take time, so a defeat here would be very bad.