Port Attack

[Platon]

Globl War, V.1.2.1.5, all available Opitonal Rules ON:

A CW Task Force in the Eastern Med containing to CVs with a CVP fighter (Range 4) and a CVP bomber (Range 2) attack the Italian ships in the Libyian port Tripoli. When both CVPs fly the attack the resulting surprise points number for the CW is one higher compared to when the CVP bomber is flying alone.
I think this does not correspond with RAC. I understand the rule that the mere presence of a CV (and his loades CVP) in a sea box section is enough to provide a surprise point bonus of +1 for port strike no matter if this particular CV(P) is participating in the attack or not.
Any thoughts anyone?

with kind regards

[Centuur]

Yes. Are you playing with the optional rule: Variable Carrier planes searching?

SiF option 27: (CV search) Instead of increasing the search number
in a section of a sea-box by 1, in Fine, Snow or Rain modify it
according to the longest range among the carrier planes on
undamaged committed CVs in that section:
• if the longest range is 1-3 no modifier
• if the longest range is 4-6, increase the search number by 1;
• if the longest range is 7+, increase the search number by 2.

[Platon]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Yes. Are you playing with the optional rule: Variable Carrier planes searching?

SiF option 27: (CV search) Instead of increasing the search number
in a section of a sea-box by 1, in Fine, Snow or Rain modify it
according to the longest range among the carrier planes on
undamaged committed CVs in that section:
• if the longest range is 1-3 no modifier
• if the longest range is 4-6, increase the search number by 1;
• if the longest range is 7+, increase the search number by 2.

Yes, all optional rules are on, including this one.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Platon

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Yes. Are you playing with the optional rule: Variable Carrier planes searching?

SiF option 27: (CV search) Instead of increasing the search number
in a section of a sea-box by 1, in Fine, Snow or Rain modify it
according to the longest range among the carrier planes on
undamaged committed CVs in that section:
• if the longest range is 1-3 no modifier
• if the longest range is 4-6, increase the search number by 1;
• if the longest range is 7+, increase the search number by 2.

Yes, all optional rules are on, including this one.

This means MWIF is right to give you a different modifier when using a 2 range CVP or using both a 2 range and a 4 range CVP...

[Platon]

I agree with you in the interpration of the Variable Carrier Planes Searching option rule.
But what I meant is that whatever search bonus a Carrier Plane provides for a sea box search number (may it +1 or even higher) IT has NOT to fly a port attack with OTHER units from this SAME sea box section to provide this bonus to these OTHER units for this port attack. Its presence in the seabox section is enough to provide the other Carrier Planes which are flying the attack from the same section with its bonus.
At least that is what I understand when I read the rule about port attacks in the RAC. What's your opinion on this?

with kind regards

[Orm]

No. Its presence it the sea box is not enough. The longer range carrier plane must be included in the port strike. See the relevant rule cut in below.

RAC: 11.2 Port attack
You use port attack missions to attack enemy naval units in port. To make port attacks:
1. your opponent flies combat air patrol to potential target hexes;
2. you fly all your selected attacking bombers and escorting fighters to their target port hexes;
3. your opponent flies intercepting fighters to the target hexes;
4. you fly intercepting fighters to the target hexes;
5. both sides make search rolls;
6. fight any air-to-air combats;
7. surviving bombers suffer anti-aircraft fire from the target ships (AsA option 3: and AA units ~ see 22.4.2);
8. surviving air-to-sea factors attack the ships;
9. return all surviving aircraft to base and become disorganized.
Search rolls
The search rolls determine how many surprise points each side will have. This is similar to normal naval
combats (see 11.5.6). Unlike normal naval combats, they do not determine which units take part unless someone
(usually the defender) spends enough surprise points to avoid the combat.
Surprise points
You get surprise points equal to:
• the modified search number in the highest sea-box section containing a unit you have included in the
combat; and [Clarification. This includes fighters even if no air-to-air combat is possible - July 19, 2007.]
• your opponent’s unmodified search roll.
Land based bombers attacking are treated as being in the 3 section. The defender is in the 3 section if the
port is a minor port, and the 5 section if the port is a major port. Carrier planes are in the section their CV is in
(whose search numbers can be modified by the presence of NAVs and CVs ~ see 8.2.4). CVs in port do not modify
the search number.

[Platon]

...
(whose search numbers can be modified by the "presence of NAVs and CVs" ~ see 8.2.4).
...

Well that is my point. The NAV modifies this search number WITHOUT flying the port attack (it simply can't do that) but else staying in its sea box section (exactly as a CV(plane) might choose to do)!

with kind regards

[Orm]

Since the wording "included in the combat" seem to have no meaning to you I see no point to discuss this further.

[Platon]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Since the wording "included in the combat" seem to have no meaning to you I see no point to discuss this further.

That's a pitty because it has a meaning to me. It says that the highest modified search number that a unit that is included in the attack flies from is taken into account. But is says not which unit did modify this search number, the one flying the mission or another one staying back in the sea box section, as a NAV for instance.

with kind regards

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Platon

...
(whose search numbers can be modified by the "presence of NAVs and CVs" ~ see 8.2.4).
...

Well that is my point. The NAV modifies this search number WITHOUT flying the port attack (it simply can't do that) but else staying in its sea box section (exactly as a CV(plane) might choose to do)!

with kind regards

You don't seem to be reading correctly. It's the bold line which is important here. "included in the combat". So a 4 range CVP will give another modifier to the die roll if it comes out of the highest sea box section flying into the Port Attack hex. So it's not the NAV (which isn't included in the Port Attack), but the range of the CVP which counts here.

But if you put a picture or a saved game in here, we can investigate this. That surely makes things easier for everyone to understand...

[Platon]

Here is the save file for the example in question. There are two CVPs in the Eastern Med and Italian ships in Tripoli (Lybia).

with kind regards

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Platon

ORIGINAL: Orm

Since the wording "included in the combat" seem to have no meaning to you I see no point to discuss this further.

That's a pitty because it has a meaning to me. It says that the highest modified search number that a unit that is included in the attack flies from is taken into account. But is says not which unit did modify this search number, the one flying the mission or another one staying back in the sea box section, as a NAV for instance.

with kind regards

My group used to interpret it the exact same way you do but others thought differently and it was controversial enough to merit a clarification. That's how it got into the FAQ and via the FAQ answer Harry has overruled us (and you). [;)]

[Platon]

Well, if Harry himself in all his might had to do that I know I was right after all [;)]
Chapter closed.

[Dabrion]

It is the CV's modified sea box section that is used to determine the surprise points for the strinking side.

The CV's sea-box section is modified by the presence of CV (either a given +1, or scaled by the range of the best CVP [1-3:0 4-6:1 7+:2]) and NAVs in fine or snow weather. This bonus is not lost while the air-component is airborne. At least there is no such thing mentioned in RAW (or RAC for that matter). You can get a case going for the CV having a decreased seabox section during the strike because the counter does not rest on the CV. I suggest you bring that to wifdiscussion, 4 teh lolz..

This strikes me as a flaw in the logic that asserts the CV bonus.

@Paul, what FAQ are you refering to? FAQ Q11.2-1?

[Platon]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

It is the CV's modified sea box section that is used to determine the surprise points for the strinking side.

The CV's sea-box section is modified by the presence of CV (either a given +1, or scaled by the range of the best CVP [1-3:0 4-6:1 7+:2]) and NAVs in fine or snow weather. This bonus is not lost while the air-component is airborne. At least there is no such thing mentioned in RAW (or RAC for that matter). You can get a case going for the CV having a decreased seabox section during the strike because the counter does not rest on the CV. I suggest you bring that to wifdiscussion, 4 teh lolz..

This strikes me as a flaw in the logic that asserts the CV bonus.

Well that idea could have come from a shrewd topclass US lawyer [;)]
But I think I keep my fingers away from it [:D]

[Dabrion]

In case I was not clear: I am backing you (@Planton) on your analysis on slighly different grounds.

I think the FAQ suggests it is the CVP included in the combat that determines the bonus. Much so because the question in the FAQ is framed in that way (the question asks about whether CVP flying as fighters apply the sea-box section bonus, although the strike is carried out by 3or-less range bomber CVP).

RAW does not say anything about that case, mostly because it is not necessary (and one of the maximes is to be brief). CVPs have the same sea-box section as the CV they start from, after all that is the criterion that does or doesn't include them in a naval combat and "This is similar to normal naval combats (see 11.5.6)." Arguing airborne status is thus a moot point, and seems artificial.

The actual CVPs that carry out the strike (your bomber queue) are also not sufficient to determine the bonus, mostly for the reasons that "You get surprise points equal to:
• the modified search number in the highest sea-box section containing a unit you have included in the combat;", with said combat being conducted by the steps of the preceeding enumeration, including air to air combat, thus including your CVP in the fighter queue as well as those in the bomber queue. Further this is the case specifically addressed in the FAQ (BDFL bonus! doesn't mean much.. but Harry can be correct too).

Finally, for determining surprise points "Carrier planes are in the section their CV is in (whose search numbers can be modified by the presence of NAVs and CVs ~ see 8.2.4)." In case it is unclear: presence means *in the same sea-zone*.


Anyways.. "chapter closed".. we wouldn't spill water under the bridge, would we?!

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

It is the CV's modified sea box section that is used to determine the surprise points for the strinking side.

The CV's sea-box section is modified by the presence of CV (either a given +1, or scaled by the range of the best CVP [1-3:0 4-6:1 7+:2]) and NAVs in fine or snow weather. This bonus is not lost while the air-component is airborne. At least there is no such thing mentioned in RAW (or RAC for that matter). You can get a case going for the CV having a decreased seabox section during the strike because the counter does not rest on the CV. I suggest you bring that to wifdiscussion, 4 teh lolz..

This strikes me as a flaw in the logic that asserts the CV bonus.

@Paul, what FAQ are you refering to? FAQ Q11.2-1?

Yes that's the FAQ I meant, but that question began as the one raised by Platon and some of us (me included) were overruled by Harry on the forum for the FAQ back before 2007!

Now in RAW8 it will say: "Carrier planes are in the section their CV is in (whose search numbers can be modified by the carrier plane’s range" but unfortunately the earlier reference to "You get surprise points equal to:
• the modified search number in the highest sea-box section containing a unit you have included in the combat"
is still there so the discussion can rage on I guess...

What trumps what? "containing a unit" or "included in the combat". Harry said the latter. All I can tell you is what Harry ruled and that's how MWiF is coded.

Obviously over the game board you're free to do whatever your group agrees on.

[paulderynck]

Another thought - what if the weather at the port is different than that for the sea box? FREX fine vs. rain

[Platon]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

In case I was not clear: I am backing you (@Planton) on your analysis on slighly different grounds.

I think the FAQ suggests it is the CVP included in the combat that determines the bonus. Much so because the question in the FAQ is framed in that way (the question asks about whether CVP flying as fighters apply the sea-box section bonus, although the strike is carried out by 3or-less range bomber CVP).

RAW does not say anything about that case, mostly because it is not necessary (and one of the maximes is to be brief). CVPs have the same sea-box section as the CV they start from, after all that is the criterion that does or doesn't include them in a naval combat and "This is similar to normal naval combats (see 11.5.6)." Arguing airborne status is thus a moot point, and seems artificial.

The actual CVPs that carry out the strike (your bomber queue) are also not sufficient to determine the bonus, mostly for the reasons that "You get surprise points equal to:
• the modified search number in the highest sea-box section containing a unit you have included in the combat;", with said combat being conducted by the steps of the preceeding enumeration, including air to air combat, thus including your CVP in the fighter queue as well as those in the bomber queue. Further this is the case specifically addressed in the FAQ (BDFL bonus! doesn't mean much.. but Harry can be correct too).

Finally, for determining surprise points "Carrier planes are in the section their CV is in (whose search numbers can be modified by the presence of NAVs and CVs ~ see 8.2.4)." In case it is unclear: presence means *in the same sea-zone*.


Anyways.. "chapter closed".. we wouldn't spill water under the bridge, would we?!

I completley agree to what you say. Its the way I understand it and at first I could not see how it could be read otherwise. But maybe its like the picture where when looking at it one can see an old woman and another one sees a young girl. This is hard to argue about with means of logic or semantics, etc..
One sees what one sees.
And a Computer Game does what it does.
C'est la vie.

[Platon]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Another thought - what if the weather at the port is different than that for the sea box? FREX fine vs. rain

I thought about that one too. To my understanding of this rule its the weather of the seazone where the CVs the attacking CVPs started from are, which is determining the surprise point modifier.