Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - The air war in China- DBB, SLs, PDU OFF

[GreyJoy]

I've discussed the PT matter with Erik and he convinced me that the use of PTs as i fear is completely in line with what happened in RL. So, this subject is no more.[:)]


Jan 15-17, 1943

Good news from China: the Tsuyun pocket is already reduced (again) and now we are very close from destroying 100,000 chinese and clear compeltely our left flank. The bad news comes from Changsha pocket, were we achieved a bad 1-2 with 2000 casualities against his 700...
Tanks have conquered the major road that leads from Kunming to Chungking! YES!. Now we can fill the gap and move on

In India, the enemy stacks are on the move again near Patna! ACHTUNG!!!!!! Where are they going? They seem to be moving North...but i need to be very very carefull here... i am moving too...

OZ:...heavy recon over Esperance....enemy stacks keep on advancing westwards...

CENTPAC: the enemy remains on the beaches, while our garrison reduces the distruption and fatigue. Supplies are low but the air bridge is doing a good job. Some subs are also helping to deliver supplies there.

[GreyJoy]

Jan 18, 1943

At Nauru Is., the Marines attack again after few days of rest... in this time the japanese garrison has risen to a better level, and the results are great!

This is our personal Tarawa[8D]

Ground combat at Nauru Island (127,128)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 7932 troops, 82 guns, 58 vehicles, Assault Value = 230

Defending force 10678 troops, 141 guns, 27 vehicles, Assault Value = 201

Allied adjusted assault: 37

Japanese adjusted defense: 359

Allied assault odds: 1 to 9 (fort level 3)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker: fatigue(-)

Japanese ground losses:
493 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 43 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 14 (1 destroyed, 13 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1651 casualties reported
Squads: 136 destroyed, 48 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 36 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 38 (18 destroyed, 20 disabled)

Assaulting units:
37th (Sep) Infantry Regiment
5th Marine Regiment
1st AmphTrac Engineer Battalion

Defending units:
18th Naval Guard Unit
Kure 5th SNLF
86th Naval Guard Unit
7th Air Defense AA Regiment
16th Field AA Machinecannon Company
13th JAAF AF Bn
5th Air Defense AA Regiment
21st Special Base Force
7th Naval Construction Battalion
37th JAAF AF Bn

[GreyJoy]

At Madras, the allied bombardment didn't go that well for them.

Ground combat at Madras (35,40)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 45143 troops, 752 guns, 1185 vehicles, Assault Value = 2168

Defending force 44895 troops, 490 guns, 337 vehicles, Assault Value = 998

Japanese ground losses:
15 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
26 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 5 (4 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Assaulting units:
254th Armoured Brigade
159th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
24th (Sep) Infantry Regiment
1st USMC Tank Battalion
3rd Marine Division
267th Armoured Brigade
16th Light Cavalry Regiment
73rd Motorised Brigade
627th Tank Destroyer Battalion
194th Tank Battalion
102nd(Sep) Infantry Regiment
7th Armoured Brigade
754th Tank Battalion
147th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
268th Motorised Brigade
Waziristan Division
2/1st Med Regiment
21st Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
23rd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
501st Coast AA Regiment
26th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
64th Coast AA Regiment
25th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
15th NZ AA Bde
369th Coast AA Regiment
24th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
28th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
IV Indian Corps
20th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
65th Coast AA Regiment
2nd Indian Heavy AA Regiment
77th Heavy AA Regiment
22nd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment

Defending units:
41st Division
10th Garrison Unit
6th Guards Division
5th Field Construction Battalion
23rd Ind.AA Gun Co
3rd Mortar Battalion
4th Air Defense AA Regiment
15th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
3rd Air Defense AA Regiment
11th Air Defense AA Regiment
14th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
22nd Air Flotilla
6th Field Construction Battalion
15th Army
50th Field AA Battalion
12th JAAF Base Force
54th Const Co
2nd JAAF Base Force
16th AA Regiment
52nd Field AA Battalion
62nd JAAF AF Bn

[GreyJoy]

Jan 20, 1943


CHINA: more good news. The tanks have opened the way and now we see the plains!!!! The Chinese corps were simply overrruned (Thanks God I didn't send the tanks to India!!) and now the road is open. No more connection (a part from the minor one in the north) between Kunming and Chungking! BANZAIIII

Changsha pocket is getting reduced... we should make some progresses soon there too

Tsuyun pocket is now no more. Few more days and 4 more divisions will be free to ride north!


CENTPAC: daily naval bombings against Nauru to help the marines trapped there.
Naval bombings in the Solomons too....

No sign of the American CVs...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Rekata Bay at 113,134

Allied Ships
CA Australia
CL Perth
CL Achilles
DD Morris
DD Walke
DD O'Brien
DD Lansdowne

Port hits 21
Port supply hits 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Nauru Island at 127,128

Allied Ships
CA Wichita
CA San Francisco
CA Chicago

Japanese ground losses:
321 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 22 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 11 (1 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 22
Port hits 2
Port supply hits 4


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 75,46 (near Chungking)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 25324 troops, 353 guns, 2015 vehicles, Assault Value = 1279

Defending force 18256 troops, 77 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 487

Japanese adjusted assault: 1613

Allied adjusted defense: 280

Japanese assault odds: 5 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
420 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 36 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 42 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 19 disabled
Guns lost 11 (1 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Vehicles lost 83 (2 destroyed, 81 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
8228 casualties reported
Squads: 75 destroyed, 64 disabled
Non Combat: 189 destroyed, 65 disabled
Engineers: 9 destroyed, 9 disabled
Guns lost 16 (8 destroyed, 8 disabled)
Units retreated 3

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
2nd Tank Division
9th Tank Regiment
19th Tank Regiment
7th Ind.Tank Brigade
11th Tank Regiment
3rd Tank Regiment
4th Tank Regiment
23rd Tank Regiment
1st Tank Division
15th Tank Regiment
12th Tank Regiment
Guards Tank Division

Defending units:
16th Chinese Corps
2nd Chinese Cavalry Corps
21st Group Army


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 79,50 (near Chihkiang)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 36488 troops, 455 guns, 648 vehicles, Assault Value = 1157

Defending force 32685 troops, 78 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 868

Japanese adjusted assault: 720

Allied adjusted defense: 499

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), fatigue(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1421 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 153 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 23 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 21 disabled

Allied ground losses:
783 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 94 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
3rd Division
3rd Tank Division
116th Division
11th Army
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment

Defending units:
39th Chinese Corps
79th Chinese Corps
92nd Chinese Corps
26th Chinese Corps
3rd New Chinese Corps

[CaptBeefheart]

It might be too late, but could a deliberate attack have worked against those troops on Nauru on the next day? That was a seriously understrength invasion attempt.

Cheers,
CC

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

It might be too late, but could a deliberate attack have worked against those troops on Nauru on the next day? That was a seriously understrength invasion attempt.

Cheers,
CC

mmm... I admit that I've considered that after I saw the 1-9 result... but then I thought: what's my main goal? Kill as many allies as possible or gain time?
Even if I managed to push them back to the seas (not really possible imho...the USMCs are hard to be killed), I would have used too much supplies and Erik may have then decided to abandon the idea of conquering Nauru... while I love that he concentrates there instead of other key places.
As long as 2 regiments are trapped there I think Erik will keep on concentrating on Nauru... maybe he didn't have any other units prepped for it and that's why he's not invading once again with superior forces... and that would be awesome! I think I've gained here at least 2 months... good


Jan 21, 1943

A quiet turn. The Japanese tanks roll into the plains west of Chungking, while the Chinese are massing at Chungking abandoning every other city in the plains... WONDERFULL!

Now I need to isolate Chungking from the North and then the main goal in China are achieved!

It is confirmed that the allies have abandoned the idea of investing Patna-Ranchi frontally...and they are now back at Benares...mmm... I think they will try to come back from Howra (west of Calcutta)
Good relief...I've gained 3 months here in India with this line of defence. That's pretty a good achievement. Madras holds firmly. Pretty sure now he will reinforce his attack there.

The only other news of the day is the heroic death of the crew of the I-6, patrolling the waters near the Line Islands.
After having torpedoed an enemy transport, the SCs forced him to surface... he then fired several blind salvos, while receiving several hits from the allied gunnery... he managed to torpedoe and sink the Makawo before going down...
HAIL to the I-6 and its Japanese spirit! BANZAI!




ub attack near Palmyra at 163,131

Japanese Ships
SS I-6, hits 16, and is sunk

Allied Ships
xAK Stephen J. Field, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Steel Voyager
xAK Steel Exporter
xAK Santa Rita
xAK Utahan
SC-519
xAK Caleb Strong
xAK Clevedon
xAK Makawao, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Jacob Luckenbach

SS I-6 launches 4 torpedoes at xAK Stephen J. Field
I-6 diving deep ....
SC-519 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC-519 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC-519 attacking submerged sub ....
SS I-6 forced to surface!
xAK Stephen J. Field firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Caleb Strong firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Clevedon firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Makawao firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Jacob Luckenbach firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Stephen J. Field firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Caleb Strong firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Clevedon firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Makawao firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Jacob Luckenbach firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Stephen J. Field firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Caleb Strong firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Clevedon firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Makawao firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Jacob Luckenbach firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Stephen J. Field firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Caleb Strong firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Clevedon firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Makawao firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Jacob Luckenbach firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Stephen J. Field firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Caleb Strong firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Clevedon firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Makawao firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Jacob Luckenbach firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Stephen J. Field firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Caleb Strong firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Clevedon firing on surfaced sub ....
Sub slips beneath the waves

[Cribtop]

Looks like the Chinese nut is thoroughly cracked now. A good strategic result for you, GJ!

[GreyJoy]

Jan 22-27, 1943

The Japanese tanks reached Chengtu, while the Tsuyun pocket is finally wiped out. Now Chungking is de-facto isolated from Kunming and soon I will also cut the fuel-route to Lanchow.
The Changsha pocket resists and I am getting several bloody noses there, but we're eventually grinding down the defenders...

In India, the allies have moved all their armies to the west, towards Madras... good!
They also started to pound Ceylon...

In Oz the enemy stacks has stopped...mmm... no more marching westwards...low on supplies maybe?


Woodlark island is captured...the allies are getting close to New Britain...

Usual naval and aerial bombings of Nauru Island...we won't last many more days I fear.

Tahio is online! GOOD!

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Looks like the Chinese nut is thoroughly cracked now. A good strategic result for you, GJ!

Not completely yet, but surely we managed to crack the outer perimeter. If we now are able to siege and isolate Chungking and annihilate the Changsha pocket, then a major strategic result will really be accomplished

[crsutton]

I am beginning to think that one of the flaws of stacking limits is that the Japanese can mass tanks in China (any other places early in the war) and pretty much blow through any stack of defending infantry. At least in stock the Chinese could over mass infantry as a response. But now if a hex has say, a 40,000 limit. Then the Japanese player can create a kill stack of tanks and using air support pretty much defeat any key position. I am seeing it in this game and to some extent in my game. What do you think Nic?

[ny59giants]

I am beginning to think that one of the flaws of stacking limits is that the Japanese can mass tanks in China (any other places early in the war) and pretty much blow through any stack of defending infantry. At least in stock the Chinese could over mass infantry as a response. But now if a hex has say, a 40,000 limit. Then the Japanese player can create a kill stack of tanks and using air support pretty much defeat any key position. I am seeing it in this game and to some extent in my game. What do you think Nic?

Add in all the heavy siege artillery from Manchuria and you face very unfavorable odds in China. If you rid yourself of stacking limits you go back to ground based "Death Stars" first for Japan and then later in the war in Burma and beyond for the Allies. The solution here seems to be very complicated and would be some modification to troops based in Manchuria and/or many house rules.

[veji1]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I am beginning to think that one of the flaws of stacking limits is that the Japanese can mass tanks in China (any other places early in the war) and pretty much blow through any stack of defending infantry. At least in stock the Chinese could over mass infantry as a response. But now if a hex has say, a 40,000 limit. Then the Japanese player can create a kill stack of tanks and using air support pretty much defeat any key position. I am seeing it in this game and to some extent in my game. What do you think Nic?

I think it proves to for every measure there is a counter measure : the Japanese, by massing tanks and arty can grind through the Chinese and eventually fracture the front to crush them. BUT and to me this is a big but, in this case it meant for greyjoy renouncing using his tanks anywhere else including India.

So with SL the Japanese can still crush the Chinese, but it should take them more time, burn more supply, and force them to leverage more out of their quality advantage (tanks, arty) than without SL. Still a net plus for me in terms of realism/game play.

And getting rid of the death stars is just so much nicer for the feel of the game.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: veji1

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I am beginning to think that one of the flaws of stacking limits is that the Japanese can mass tanks in China (any other places early in the war) and pretty much blow through any stack of defending infantry. At least in stock the Chinese could over mass infantry as a response. But now if a hex has say, a 40,000 limit. Then the Japanese player can create a kill stack of tanks and using air support pretty much defeat any key position. I am seeing it in this game and to some extent in my game. What do you think Nic?

I think it proves to for every measure there is a counter measure : the Japanese, by massing tanks and arty can grind through the Chinese and eventually fracture the front to crush them. BUT and to me this is a big but, in this case it meant for greyjoy renouncing using his tanks anywhere else including India.

So with SL the Japanese can still crush the Chinese, but it should take them more time, burn more supply, and force them to leverage more out of their quality advantage (tanks, arty) than without SL. Still a net plus for me in terms of realism/game play.

And getting rid of the death stars is just so much nicer for the feel of the game.

+1 here

It takes lot of time and lots of PPs to be spent here and, by early 1943, I am nowhere close to what I may have done if the SLs weren't in place.

Japan has devoted all his tank units to China in this match and a HUGE amount of supplies. SLs mean that, even with Tanks, it takes forever and many many casualities to advance and yet you cannot use the tanks anywhere else during the critical moments of 1942.

I do believe it's well balanced. Tanks in +3 terrain are not usefull either. especially in WR or JR hexes they are pretty weak. The allied player needs to be carefull just not to let them roll on rough hexes or it's over.
But again, I've been fighting in China for 13 months now...and I haven't yet conquered Sian or Lanchow...so I don't find it worse than without SL

Here's the situation...at chengtu we've just got a 1-2 with the tank army... but we should eventually get there... my flanks are now weak and Erik is threatening them everywhere

[GreyJoy]

And here's India at the end of Jan 1943

[Sangeli]

Despite your earlier complaints that the Indian adventure wasn't worth it, I think your progress in China validates all the supply you used in India. You will be able to defeat China or reduce China to a Chungking siege and free up much if the IJA in China before the Allies can really bear down on you in eastern India. Soon you will have ample IJA resources to defend your extensive empire.

ORIGINAL: crsutton
I am beginning to think that one of the flaws of stacking limits is that the Japanese can mass tanks in China (any other places early in the war) and pretty much blow through any stack of defending infantry. At least in stock the Chinese could over mass infantry as a response. But now if a hex has say, a 40,000 limit. Then the Japanese player can create a kill stack of tanks and using air support pretty much defeat any key position. I am seeing it in this game and to some extent in my game. What do you think Nic?

I see these sort of sentiments reiterated time and time again but they are objectively false statements. As China with the SL you can get around 1000 AV into any hex with a 35k stacking limit. If you have well rested units with decent supply and morale which is certainly achievable, that 35k stack sitting in 3x terrain is going to be a brick wall in the face of a Japanese attack. Air support will have very limited effect in terrain and as Greyjoy mentioned tanks also have their issues. Japan cannot win the war if it continuously launching attacks with 1-2 assault odds in heavy terrain and a 1000 AV stack is going to hold up very nicely in those sorts of battles. China can be ground to death even against a good player if it doesn't have supply but that requires a long sustained effort and even then nothing is guaranteed. Chinese squad production and unit regeneration is tough to match.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Sangeli





I see these sort of sentiments reiterated time and time again but they are objectively false statements. As China with the SL you can get around 1000 AV into any hex with a 35k stacking limit. If you have well rested units with decent supply and morale which is certainly achievable, that 35k stack sitting in 3x terrain is going to be a brick wall in the face of a Japanese attack. Air support will have very limited effect in terrain and as Greyjoy mentioned tanks also have their issues. Japan cannot win the war if it continuously launching attacks with 1-2 assault odds in heavy terrain and a 1000 AV stack is going to hold up very nicely in those sorts of battles. China can be ground to death even against a good player if it doesn't have supply but that requires a long sustained effort and even then nothing is guaranteed. Chinese squad production and unit regeneration is tough to match.

Don't know what sort fantasy campaign you have played in China but with India invaded and no air bridge to China there is no such thing as well rested, high morale, well supplied Chinese units. There is literally no supply in China other than the 200-300 light supply manufactured in Chunking, Sian, Chentu and Kumming. Not enough to fully supply one very strong stack. With no supply Chinese units "do not" take replacements and you can't afford them anyway because they burn supply. And, morale and disruption is much slower to recover. It is impossible to build forts. Yes, units regenerate in Chungking but they come back with low morale and absolutely zero heavy weapons. Which makes them helpless. In fact, once Chungking is under siege the returning troops can be a liability as they help eat up what little supply there is. My opponent is very good at destroying the bulk of units and then isolating them so that they do not return to play, but frankly they come back so weak that I don't really think it matters. Against low morale, low supply units Japanese air support has a devastating effect in any terrain, as a very heavy bomber attack will majorly disrupt low supply units making them helpless for the follow up attack.

At this stage of the game, I consider a good defensive stack to have only 1/3 disrupted units (yes they count against stacking) with 50% supply. And, that can only be done if there are some quite sectors where the units have zero supply. Once Chinese ground units take a loss and retreat, they are pretty much our out of devices and even if they recover will be much weaker. Some AFB correct me if I am being objectively false here....

[witpqs]

I think you got it right.

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Sangeli
I see these sort of sentiments reiterated time and time again but they are objectively false statements. As China with the SL you can get around 1000 AV into any hex with a 35k stacking limit. If you have well rested units with decent supply and morale which is certainly achievable, that 35k stack sitting in 3x terrain is going to be a brick wall in the face of a Japanese attack. Air support will have very limited effect in terrain and as Greyjoy mentioned tanks also have their issues. Japan cannot win the war if it continuously launching attacks with 1-2 assault odds in heavy terrain and a 1000 AV stack is going to hold up very nicely in those sorts of battles. China can be ground to death even against a good player if it doesn't have supply but that requires a long sustained effort and even then nothing is guaranteed. Chinese squad production and unit regeneration is tough to match.

Don't know what sort fantasy campaign you have played in China but with India invaded and no air bridge to China there is no such thing as well rested, high morale, well supplied Chinese units. There is literally no supply in China other than the 200-300 light supply manufactured in Chunking, Sian, Chentu and Kumming. Not enough to fully supply one very strong stack. With no supply Chinese units "do not" take replacements and you can't afford them anyway because they burn supply. And, morale and disruption is much slower to recover. It is impossible to build forts. Yes, units regenerate in Chungking but they come back with low morale and absolutely zero heavy weapons. Which makes them helpless. In fact, once Chungking is under siege the returning troops can be a liability as they help eat up what little supply there is. My opponent is very good at destroying the bulk of units and then isolating them so that they do not return to play, but frankly they come back so weak that I don't really think it matters. Against low morale, low supply units Japanese air support has a devastating effect in any terrain, as a very heavy bomber attack will majorly disrupt low supply units making them helpless for the follow up attack.

At this stage of the game, I consider a good defensive stack to have only 1/3 disrupted units (yes they count against stacking) with 50% supply. And, that can only be done if there are some quite sectors where the units have zero supply. Once Chinese ground units take a loss and retreat, they are pretty much our out of devices and even if they recover will be much weaker. Some AFB correct me if I am being objectively false here....

I am only arguing with the claim that the Japanese have the ability to take any key position irrespective of the state of the Chinese forces with stacking limits. Your original post implies that even under ideal defensive conditions that the Japanese can force the Chinese back from any hex with stacking limits in place. It was not qualified by any statement about the status of the Chinese forces; it was an absolute statement. Moreover, the focus on your post was centered on the effects of the stacking limit instead of the weaknesses of the Chinese. As a result, I still feel confident and saying it is objectively false to say that with stacking limits the Japanese can take pretty much any key position.

So really what I think you are trying to say is that if China is isolated from India then China is likely going to get crushed irrespective of the stacking limit. This is a very separate issue than what you brought up earlier. And I mostly agree on your analysis of China without supply.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

I am only arguing with the claim that the Japanese have the ability to take any key position irrespective of the state of the Chinese forces with stacking limits. Your original post implies that even under ideal defensive conditions that the Japanese can force the Chinese back from any hex with stacking limits in place. It was not qualified by any statement about the status of the Chinese forces; it was an absolute statement. Moreover, the focus on your post was centered on the effects of the stacking limit instead of the weaknesses of the Chinese. As a result, I still feel confident and saying it is objectively false to say that with stacking limits the Japanese can take pretty much any key position.

So really what I think you are trying to say is that if China is isolated from India then China is likely going to get crushed irrespective of the stacking limit. This is a very separate issue than what you brought up earlier. And I mostly agree on your analysis of China without supply.

It might be 1000 AV, but it's 1000 AV with an anti-armor rating of 5, and anti-soft of 12. And morale is largely a function of supply. Even if you're right theoretically crsutton's point is what matters in the game. Supply rules all. China ain't got some.

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

I am only arguing with the claim that the Japanese have the ability to take any key position irrespective of the state of the Chinese forces with stacking limits. Your original post implies that even under ideal defensive conditions that the Japanese can force the Chinese back from any hex with stacking limits in place. It was not qualified by any statement about the status of the Chinese forces; it was an absolute statement. Moreover, the focus on your post was centered on the effects of the stacking limit instead of the weaknesses of the Chinese. As a result, I still feel confident and saying it is objectively false to say that with stacking limits the Japanese can take pretty much any key position.

So really what I think you are trying to say is that if China is isolated from India then China is likely going to get crushed irrespective of the stacking limit. This is a very separate issue than what you brought up earlier. And I mostly agree on your analysis of China without supply.

It might be 1000 AV, but it's 1000 AV with an anti-armor rating of 5, and anti-soft of 12. And morale is largely a function of supply. Even if you're right theoretically crsutton's point is what matters in the game. Supply rules all. China ain't got some.

Let's go back to crsutton's original post:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
I am beginning to think that one of the flaws of stacking limits is that the Japanese can mass tanks in China (any other places early in the war) and pretty much blow through any stack of defending infantry.

So we agree the issue is supply and not stacking limits?