Allied Tactics

[Snigbert]

I can only imagine the damage the Japanese could have inflicted

They could have pissed in the marine's coffee and not told them, for example

[Drongo]

Posted by Madflava13

Although a USMC counter-attack might have killed off the Japanese eventually, if they had made it to Henderson (which is historically a possibilty), I can only imagine the damage the Japanese could have inflicted.. Scratch the Cactus air force and all the support mechanisms that were in place. Coupled with Japanese dominance of the waters in the area (at least at the beginning of the campaign) and you've got a lot of dead Marines because no reinforcements were coming any time soon...

I agree it had the potential to be a disaster but....

I don't have any detailed sources on hand but from memory, Kawaguchi's 3 battalion attack on Bloody Ridge in mid-September was the one that came closest to breaking through. Ichiki's earlier attack in August was just suicide and Maruyama's later attack in October was effectively stopped dead by a well organised US defence.

If you assume that Kawaguchi's attack did succeed in clearing the Marines off Bloody Ridge and then pushed on toward the airfield, what would have happened next? There are a lot of factors to consider.

Unless the marine defence line had collapsed very early, the Japanese advance onto the coastal plain would have been in daylight.

Would the Marine Raiders have been destroyed in the attack or would they still be a viable force that could aid in the defence of the airfield with the marine HQ units and any other 2nd line troops (like the Artillery/AA batteries, aircraft mechanics, etc)?

The Japanese still had to take and hold a fairly large, open area and probably in daylight. While this was going on, what would be happening in the rest of the US line. The US would now know for sure the main attack had occured and had effectively 2 Marine Regiments unengaged to the East and West. These were only faced by about 2 Japanese battalions which proved incapable of tieing the marines down by direct pressure. Detachments from these regiments would certainly have been sent had the Japanese attack broke through. IIRC, there were also at least 6 US light tanks available to move that had been historically placed on the eastern flank. I would expect these to have certainly been sent in to engage the Japanese. How quickly these forces could arrive and whether the Japanese could definitely secure the airfield is unknown (to me, anyway).

The other factor to consider is what was Kawaguchi's intent? From memory, his attack was intended to capture the airfield then drive the rest of the marines from their positions. This was not a "raid" to knock out Henderson so as to cover a major Japanese landing. From earlier accounts I read, the intention was to capture and hold the airbase for future Japanese use. I don't recall any mention in his plan to methodically destroy all equipment, supplies, aircraft, etc on immeadiate occupation of the airfield. Rendering the actual runway more than temporarily inoperable was also beyond his capabilities, regardless of his intent.

If Kawaguchi's attack succeeded, if he then took Henderson, if he realised that he had no hope of further success, if he then had the time and freedom to destroy the airfield facilities/aircraft and if the Japanese Airforce and Navy were sitting ready to make full use of the opportunity, it could have been a decisive result.

Without being part of a concerted Japanese operation, the knocking out of Henderson would have only been an (admittedly big) temporary inconvenience to the defenders. The USN had shown that they could get supplies through using quick supply runs (Henderson being operational or not) and the airstrip itself would most likely still be useable for air supply. Also, discussions in the US high command indicated that they were prepared to seriously consider risking the beaching individual transports if ever the need became that desperate. I would also think that a convoy carrying replacement equipment, covered by available USN CVs, would have been considered as a one off.

In my opinion, had Maruyama's October attack (which was part of a major Japanese op) had the same chance of initial success as Kawaguchi's unsupported one in September, the Guadalcanal Campaign could well have ended differently.

It's been a while since I studied the campaign, maybe someone who has a reference handy might comment.

Posted by Snigbert

They could have pissed in the marine's coffee and not told them, for example

It would have been a payback for the time that the marines pissed on the Japanese supplies after they captured a supply camp. Quid quo pro.

[Chiteng]

To answer the original posters question:

In the original WitP (SPI) board game....

I routinely reinforced Australia with whatever it needed to hold
the Japs off...conceeded Everything except India and Midway
and the Fiji's and simply sat in Pearl waiting for the Essex.
After the Jap had conquered everything, he recoiled in horror
from the masses of land based aircraft you have, and he could NOT break that defense.

So the game went quickly up to 5/43 and boom the USN had nothing to fear. So I would say that you can afford to fall WAY back. There is no need for protracted shoestring struggles
over useless islands. Just build up and crush them.

[Mike Scholl]

Originally posted by Chiteng
To answer the original posters question:

In the original WitP (SPI) board game....

I routinely reinforced Australia with whatever it needed to hold
the Japs off...conceeded Everything except India and Midway
and the Fiji's and simply sat in Pearl waiting for the Essex.
After the Jap had conquered everything, he recoiled in horror
from the masses of land based aircraft you have, and he could NOT break that defense.

So the game went quickly up to 5/43 and boom the USN had nothing to fear. So I would say that you can afford to fall WAY back. There is no need for protracted shoestring struggles
over useless islands. Just build up and crush them.

Clearly you never had the entertaining experiance of playing the
game "double-blind with a moderator" in the manner of the National Monstergaming Society. Not knowing what the opposition has or where he's going with it made your strategy
much more "iffy". It also made the game a lot more fun. It's one
of the things that makes playing WitP as a computer game something I look forward to---having to guess what your opponant is up to out there beyond your immediate view. The
use of "dummies" is not the same---even with a dozen in play
you still had thousands of hexes where you KNEW nothing was happening. Looking at the map and knowing something COULD
be happening in ANY of those hexes is a different feeling---made for wonderful team play. I hope WitP will recapture some of that.

[madflava13]

Drongo -
I also am rusty on my Guadalcanal Campaign history... I was under the impression that the US was having a more difficult time resupplying the 1st Marine Div. I'm not disagreeing with you, I just was operating under that impression when I was posting. If you're correct and supplies were getting through that easily, than I concede the Japanese couldn't have achieved anything more than a major headache for the Allies with Henderson being ineffective for several days to weeks (depending on what air units were in theater).

[TIMJOT]

Originally posted by Chiteng
To answer the original posters question:

In the original WitP (SPI) board game....

I routinely reinforced Australia with whatever it needed to hold
the Japs off...conceeded Everything except India and Midway
and the Fiji's and simply sat in Pearl waiting for the Essex.
After the Jap had conquered everything, he recoiled in horror
from the masses of land based aircraft you have, and he could NOT break that defense.

So the game went quickly up to 5/43 and boom the USN had nothing to fear. So I would say that you can afford to fall WAY back. There is no need for protracted shoestring struggles
over useless islands. Just build up and crush them.

What fun is that? I guess, if all you care is about winning, but sounds pretty boreing if you ask me. IMO, the object is not only to win but to win well. That for the allies , means winning the war substantially earlier than the historical date IMO.

[Drongo]

madflava13

I hope I didn't sound like it was all cut and dried. You are correct that re-supplying the whole of the 1st Marine Div would have been near impossible in the long run without Henderson being operational.

I was making the assumption that the airfield could be quickly regained by the marines and that even if the temporary loss of the airfield had cost them their airbase supplies and equipment, the actual divisional/regimental dumps that contained the land combat supplies would probably not been touched as they were well dispersed (IIRC but seeing a positional map of the area again would help). This should leave the division with enough supplies to keep going for a time so long as they not under heavy pressure. The marines certainly had the numbers and supplies to drive back Kawaguchi's force.

What I was suggesting was that the fast transport runs and air supply missions could probably have been used to replace any destroyed equipment/supplies needed for the airfield, allowing it to be brought back into operation.

I wasn't treating the loss of the airfield lightly since such an event could have been disasterous if a major Japanese operation was in full swing. I just felt (based on what I can remember) that since Kawaguchi's force were effectively operating alone, any success would have been temporary and the US historically had shown that they could get small amounts of vital equipment/supplies through to Guadacanal if needed.

[Drongo]

Posted by TIMJOT

What fun is that? I guess, if all you care is about winning, but sounds pretty boreing if you ask me. IMO, the object is not only to win but to win well. That for the allies , means winning the war substantially earlier than the historical date IMO.

What fun is a thread that gets back on topic?

TIMJOT,
Given that philosophy and assuming WitP plays similar to UV, at what point would you draw the line in the sand and be prepared to begin counter attacking a Japanese opponent who is playing along historical lines? Second half of '42? First half of '42? December 8th '41?

Just curious.

[Chiteng]

It would be easy enough to create a rule that penalized
shall we say 'non-reactive' play, and encouraged
agressive play.

[Mike Scholl]

Originally posted by Chiteng
It would be easy enough to create a rule that penalized
shall we say 'non-reactive' play, and encouraged
agressive play.

To offer a "bonus" for an early end to the war is fine. To
make the Japanese stronger for every "so many" resource
points they can get from SE Asia to Tokyo..., no problem. But
DICTATING to the player what strategy he MUST follow destroys
the whole purpose of a "game". Everyone has their own idea
of what the "best" course of action was---and all should be as
feasible as historical accuracy allows. (NO.., a counter-stroke
through the Aluetians is NOT historically realistic). Just because
YOU feel that every day without a fight is boring doesn't mean
your opponant should HAVE to give you one.

[Chiteng]

Originally posted by Mike Scholl
To offer a "bonus" for an early end to the war is fine. To
make the Japanese stronger for every "so many" resource
points they can get from SE Asia to Tokyo..., no problem. But
DICTATING to the player what strategy he MUST follow destroys
the whole purpose of a "game". Everyone has their own idea
of what the "best" course of action was---and all should be as
feasible as historical accuracy allows. (NO.., a counter-stroke
through the Aluetians is NOT historically realistic). Just because
YOU feel that every day without a fight is boring doesn't mean
your opponant should HAVE to give you one.

I was thinking along the lines of the shortening the war rule
from WitP board game.

If the US player allows Australia to be cut off from the outside world, then each week that this remains true, the game length is
reduced by two weeks.

[Snigbert]

An excellent book that covers the land battles on Guadalcanal is Richard Franks' "Guadalcanal: The definitive account of the landmark battle."

I read this recently and enjoyed it very much.

[TIMJOT]

Originally posted by Drongo
Posted by TIMJOT


What fun is a thread that gets back on topic?

TIMJOT,
Given that philosophy and assuming WitP plays similar to UV, at what point would you draw the line in the sand and be prepared to begin counter attacking a Japanese opponent who is playing along historical lines? Second half of '42? First half of '42? December 8th '41?

Just curious.

First half of 42. The Malaya Barrier "None shall pass":D

[TIMJOT]

Originally posted by Mike Scholl
Just because,YOU feel that every day without a fight is boring doesn't meanyour opponant should HAVE to give you one.

True, but I think some sort of time limits for victory is justified.

Does anyone no if there will be degrees of victory like...

Major victory, minor victory, draw, minor defeat, disaster. or will it be simply win/lose?

BTW, I believe I said it would be boreng not Chiteng.

[Chiteng]

Originally posted by TIMJOT
True, but I think some sort of time limits for victory is justified.

Does anyone no if there will be degrees of victory like...

Major victory, minor victory, draw, minor defeat, disaster. or will it be simply win/lose?

BTW, I believe I said it would be boreng not Chiteng.

In the boardgame WitP if you charge out to meet Kido Butai,
you will get your head handed to you.

Staying in Pearl is wise. If you wish to win.

The Japs cant be beat in the first 18 months unless...they make a mistake.

[madflava13]

If the US sits by the whole war and does nothing, it should lose - this is because Japan will achieve all her objectives, and the US will have lost territory. I don't think special rules are needed - the actual scoring in the game will have this result no matter what.

If Japan sits by, she will lose because she hasn't achieved her objectives. Again, no special rules to reflect this are needed.

If the Japanese player charges out, takes many bases, and then sits back the rest of the game in defense, I'd say that's smart game play, not something that should be penalized. We know the Japanese player can't compete with US industrial might. But the Japanese player can build up lines of defense and sit back allowing the US player to bleed himself to death on those defensive positions -- this was the historical reality and I don't think the Japanese side should be penalized for "inactivity." How do you draw the line on what is a penalty-worthy action and what is strategic consolidation?

Finally, if you are playing PBEM against someone who truly does nothing, instead of relying on special war-shortening rules, I suggest just find someone else to play against... That's the ultimate penalty.

As always, just my $.02

[Chiteng]

Originally posted by madflava13
If the US sits by the whole war and does nothing, it should lose - this is because Japan will achieve all her objectives, and the US will have lost territory. I don't think special rules are needed - the actual scoring in the game will have this result no matter what.

If Japan sits by, she will lose because she hasn't achieved her objectives. Again, no special rules to reflect this are needed.

If the Japanese player charges out, takes many bases, and then sits back the rest of the game in defense, I'd say that's smart game play, not something that should be penalized. We know the Japanese player can't compete with US industrial might. But the Japanese player can build up lines of defense and sit back allowing the US player to bleed himself to death on those defensive positions -- this was the historical reality and I don't think the Japanese side should be penalized for "inactivity." How do you draw the line on what is a penalty-worthy action and what is strategic consolidation?

Finally, if you are playing PBEM against someone who truly does nothing, instead of relying on special war-shortening rules, I suggest just find someone else to play against... That's the ultimate penalty.

As always, just my $.02

So it doesnt matter if a strategy is sound...all that matters is that Jap is entertained =)

[mogami]

Hi, There is nothing wrong with Chiteng's war plan. If the game gives him enough time to achieve victory then it will work. In the end US and Allied losses will be just as high as other strategy's but this remains to be seen. (I say this because the battles in late 43 will be colossal)
I am assuming the plan is just to defend PH, India, and supply route to Australia.
Wait for numbers to build up and then go direct to Japan through Central Pacific.
The draw back is the IJN will be waiting enmass. They will be close to their supply/repair/reinforcment while the US will have to capture bases as they go. Only Marcus Island is unsupported from other Japanese bases. It will need to be the supply/repair base for USN. Unfortunately it is unsupported by other US bases so it will need a large garrison and will be exposed to counter attack. (The IJN and IJA have not suffered up to this point. There will be an enormous Japanese reaction when Allies finally open their offensive.)
I'll even volunteer to be the Japanese to test this theory but only if we use 1 day turns. (The period between May 42 and May 43 should go rather fast)

(But I doubt the Allies will be able to just sit for 18 months)


US plan Wake Island, from here to Marianas. (Since the Saipan,Tinian, Guam Island complex is the only area where US can have large enough airfields in range of Japan. ) Marcus since it is in range of Wake. The Marsahall's can be ignored but will always present a problem since they are along Allied supply route. While none of the Marshall Islands are large there are at least 9 bases in supporting range of one another. 100 to 200 aircraft on each.
The IJN will be intact and waiting with all this LBA in support (not to mention 60-75 sub's) As Japan I would not put more then a Bde on any one island but instead depend on the navy and LBA.
Then supposing June 1st 43 for capture of Wake. 3 month period of intense naval combat, Sept 1st 43 for next invasion attempt.
Unless Saipan, Tinian and Guam are secured the plan will fail.
If they are captured then the Allies just sit back and build B-29 and P-51 groups. (And hope the sub's can cut off oil and resource)
The Japanese carrier force will be formidable when coupled with the LBA (and able to replace lost AC while the USN carriers will need to travel to the rear to rearm)
Should prove very interesting (and extremly bloody)

[Tanaka]

Originally posted by Mogami
Hi, There is nothing wrong with Chiteng's war plan. If the game gives him enough time to achieve victory then it will work. In the end US and Allied losses will be just as high as other strategy's but this remains to be seen. (I say this because the battles in late 43 will be colossal)
I am assuming the plan is just to defend PH, India, and supply route to Australia.
Wait for numbers to build up and then go direct to Japan through Central Pacific.
The draw back is the IJN will be waiting enmass. They will be close to their supply/repair/reinforcment while the US will have to capture bases as they go. Only Marcus Island is unsupported from other Japanese bases. It will need to be the supply/repair base for USN. Unfortunately it is unsupported by other US bases so it will need a large garrison and will be exposed to counter attack. (The IJN and IJA have not suffered up to this point. There will be an enormous Japanese reaction when Allies finally open their offensive.)
I'll even volunteer to be the Japanese to test this theory but only if we use 1 day turns. (The period between May 42 and May 43 should go rather fast)

(But I doubt the Allies will be able to just sit for 18 months)


US plan Wake Island, from here to Marianas. (Since the Saipan,Tinian, Guam Island complex is the only area where US can have large enough airfields in range of Japan. ) Marcus since it is in range of Wake. The Marsahall's can be ignored but will always present a problem since they are along Allied supply route. While none of the Marshall Islands are large there are at least 9 bases in supporting range of one another. 100 to 200 aircraft on each.
The IJN will be intact and waiting with all this LBA in support (not to mention 60-75 sub's) As Japan I would not put more then a Bde on any one island but instead depend on the navy and LBA.
Then supposing June 1st 43 for capture of Wake. 3 month period of intense naval combat, Sept 1st 43 for next invasion attempt.
Unless Saipan, Tinian and Guam are secured the plan will fail.
If they are captured then the Allies just sit back and build B-29 and P-51 groups. (And hope the sub's can cut off oil and resource)
The Japanese carrier force will be formidable when coupled with the LBA (and able to replace lost AC while the USN carriers will need to travel to the rear to rearm)
Should prove very interesting (and extremly bloody)

Oh my gosh I cannot wait for this game!!! So many strategies to test and try out!!! Mogami I know you are busy now but I would love to face off against you in this game in the future. Me being Japan of course Keep up the great work beta testing!!!

[Chiteng]

Originally posted by Mogami
Hi, There is nothing wrong with Chiteng's war plan. If the game gives him enough time to achieve victory then it will work. In the end US and Allied losses will be just as high as other strategy's but this remains to be seen. (I say this because the battles in late 43 will be colossal)
I am assuming the plan is just to defend PH, India, and supply route to Australia.
Wait for numbers to build up and then go direct to Japan through Central Pacific.
The draw back is the IJN will be waiting enmass. They will be close to their supply/repair/reinforcment while the US will have to capture bases as they go. Only Marcus Island is unsupported from other Japanese bases. It will need to be the supply/repair base for USN. Unfortunately it is unsupported by other US bases so it will need a large garrison and will be exposed to counter attack. (The IJN and IJA have not suffered up to this point. There will be an enormous Japanese reaction when Allies finally open their offensive.)
I'll even volunteer to be the Japanese to test this theory but only if we use 1 day turns. (The period between May 42 and May 43 should go rather fast)

(But I doubt the Allies will be able to just sit for 18 months)


US plan Wake Island, from here to Marianas. (Since the Saipan,Tinian, Guam Island complex is the only area where US can have large enough airfields in range of Japan. ) Marcus since it is in range of Wake. The Marsahall's can be ignored but will always present a problem since they are along Allied supply route. While none of the Marshall Islands are large there are at least 9 bases in supporting range of one another. 100 to 200 aircraft on each.
The IJN will be intact and waiting with all this LBA in support (not to mention 60-75 sub's) As Japan I would not put more then a Bde on any one island but instead depend on the navy and LBA.
Then supposing June 1st 43 for capture of Wake. 3 month period of intense naval combat, Sept 1st 43 for next invasion attempt.
Unless Saipan, Tinian and Guam are secured the plan will fail.
If they are captured then the Allies just sit back and build B-29 and P-51 groups. (And hope the sub's can cut off oil and resource)
The Japanese carrier force will be formidable when coupled with the LBA (and able to replace lost AC while the USN carriers will need to travel to the rear to rearm)
Should prove very interesting (and extremly bloody)

I am not in Beta Mogami, so I cant say exactly how I would handle an offensive.