Why I'm Not Buying (Yet)

[morganbj]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've seen alot of WitP:AE folks on this forum today - Bullwinkle, Grotius, Cannonfodder, JocMeister. I've known them for years and years now through the AE forum, which is remarkable for how long-lived and active it is. If people like these speak highly of the game over the weeks and months, I'll know WitW is a keeper.

Bullwinkle is right. I shouldn't have raised this point on the day of release though. Today should be reserved for celebration and merrymaking. My apologies to the design team for serving as a distraction, slight as it might be. And, truly, I'm hoping the game is everything everybody else hopes for.

I've enjoyed your posts on the AE forum for years. I remember many conversations about how to make AE better. You were part of those discussions and had good, insightful opinions.

Let me suggest that your attention to detail and desire to make games better would be of great value here. Sure, I have the same reservations about a new game, but it's a GG game for Pete's sake. They are always the best 1.00, and after a few tweaks, they are outstanding. I'd like you to think about how you could help make WITW better. You think things through, don't get edgy with others (well, most of the time [;)]), and your opinions are always spot on.

I'd like you reconsider. I'm going to buy it myself as soon as I gather the necessary bucks together. I'd like to know that you're also here to make this thing "a keeper".

[PzB74]

I'm never in doubt about buying GG games, we've been having a great time together since "Warship" back in 85 and Ive never been dissappointed!
Family and a toddler keeps me from playing anything but the AI these days but, when PzB Jr is a bit older we will be returning with some AARs of our own - with tanks, can hardly wait [:D]

So gratz on another great release, will be a nice little Xmas treat [8D]

[RedLancer]

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Has anyone, in testing, finished a full game? When WITE was released, nobody even knew if the game could be played to completion because no one ever finished it.Of course there were all kinds of unknown problems.

This time we did. Although WitW has more functionality the scope is less - so it is quicker and perhaps easier to play.

[vonRocko]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Has anyone, in testing, finished a full game? When WITE was released, nobody even knew if the game could be played to completion because no one ever finished it.Of course there were all kinds of unknown problems.

This time we did. Although WitW has more functionality the scope is less - so it is quicker and perhaps easier to play.

Great! Thanks Red Lancer

[zakblood]

easy is my middle name as i found WITE and still do too hard for the useless players like myself, so this seems to be more up my street with hand holding and AI doing some of the stuff for me if needed, i like that and need it most of the time[;)]

[JiminyJickers]

Aw man, the only reason I'm not buying this for a Christmas present for myself is that I really never played WitE properly, only a smaller scenario. I need to play that a lot more before I'm buying this one. Even though I prefer the Western setting.

[Qwixt]

ORIGINAL: zakblood

easy is my middle name as i found WITE and still do too hard for the useless players like myself, so this seems to be more up my street with hand holding and AI doing some of the stuff for me if needed, i like that and need it most of the time[;)]

You know, that's exactly what I thought when watching the stream. Can offload some of the work load at the beginning while trying to learn the game. That's what is really drawing me to this game while deciding on WitP:AE.

[Q-Ball]

Play balance problems just inevitably pop-up from games of this complexity, particularly after it's released and inventive players figure out creative ways to "game" the system, whether it's CV Death Stars, Lvov pockets, Artillery/tank stacks, HQ chaining, run-away gambits, etc. No doubt within the first few months someone will be invading Denmark in 1943 or para-dropping on Berlin or :"death-bombing" the Reich or some sort of unforeseen gambit that requires further tweaking to balance out.

I'll still buy it, but I bet it takes awhile to work out the play balance kinks.......nature of the beast

WITP-AE is a 12-year old engine, and play balance is STILL being tinkered with.

[Numdydar]

As a long time WitP AE player, I can tell you WitW will be easier and a LOT less of a time sink than AE. A full campaign of AE can last about 1,400 turns if played to the end. Typical AE games last around 700 turns. Since each turn is one day [X(]

Compared to WitW which looks like around 120 turns since each turn is a week.

So it really depends on how much time you want to spend on a game. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE AE, but it has the biggest learning curve on any game I have ever played. If you have any doubts you can check out my production primer for Japan in AE http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605 While the Allies cannot change their production at all, it may give you a feel for the complexities of the game.

[Qwixt]

I just want the game with the best single player experience between the two. No plans on PBEM.

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


Play balance problems just inevitably pop-up from games of this complexity, particularly after it's released and inventive players figure out creative ways to "game" the system, whether it's CV Death Stars, Lvov pockets, Artillery/tank stacks, HQ chaining, run-away gambits, etc. No doubt within the first few months someone will be invading Denmark in 1943 or para-dropping on Berlin or :"death-bombing" the Reich or some sort of unforeseen gambit that requires further tweaking to balance out.

I'll still buy it, but I bet it takes awhile to work out the play balance kinks.......nature of the beast

WITP-AE is a 12-year old engine, and play balance is STILL being tinkered with.

+1..

[gwgardner]

I was a playtester for WitW. In my opinion it's a major winner. I've never been much on playing scenarios in other games - always wanted the campaign game - but I've enjoyed every scenario (including the campaign game) in WitW and have played most from both sides. I can't recall the last time there was a crash during gameplay - it's been months. Surely problems will be found, with more and more players digging into it, but I don't believe anyone will feel like this game isn't ready and polished from day one.

One of the beauties of the game is the many layers of play. You want to dig into the details of supply, manpower, material - go for it. You want to basically ignore those details, the game can take care of it. You want to create all your own air directives, determining exactly which squadrons do what and how, you can. However if you want to have the AI create air directives based upon your overall air doctrine, it will. And so on.

[aaatoysandmore]

Are all the scenarios in weekly turns basically?

[Erik Rutins]

Thank you gwgardner. Yes aatoysandmore, WITW is all weekly turns, with air resolved in daily increments.

Regards,

- Erik

[zakblood]

ORIGINAL: Qwixt

I just want the game with the best single player experience between the two. No plans on PBEM.

me 2[;)]

[JeffroK]

I'll also wait for a few others to do a "recce by fire"

I havent been impressed by some of the AAR, seems to be too easy to create endless pockets.

I'm a historical accuracy buff, references to 1st Indian Division & 1st NZ Motorised Div have me worried.

GG has come up with some fantastic ideas for games, BUT, most have needed fantastic effort from modders to get them to the stage I want.

I'll stay in reserve until the game has been put under some pressure.[:'(]

[obvert]

Congrats to the designers for getting this off the ground! Looks like an improved design with some great new additions.

Conceptually it's odd to me it starts in the last 2/3 of the war. I get there isn't much land combat before this, but still seems strange. I'm sure there is a good VP scale to allow the Germans a victory in game, but it seems hard to play a side that is starting on the downward slope from day 1. I know from WITP:AE playing Japan in 44/45 can have it's fun days, but most of the time it's a depressing slog. I haven't read through everything here, but I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else. How do others feel about the start date in game?

That said, all of the improvements (and especially the air model) seem great. I'm with Bullwinkle on the counters. Much prefer visual icons. Maybe there will be a patch to choose a different look?

I'll be looking forward to reading some AARs from the first few weeks and months.

[Kriegsspieler]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I'll also wait for a few others to do a "recce by fire"

I havent been impressed by some of the AAR, seems to be too easy to create endless pockets.

I'm a historical accuracy buff, references to 1st Indian Division & 1st NZ Motorised Div have me worried.

GG has come up with some fantastic ideas for games, BUT, most have needed fantastic effort from modders to get them to the stage I want.

I'll stay in reserve until the game has been put under some pressure.[:'(]

What one person considers fantastic effort by modders could also be looked at as a fantastic opportunity to adapt a game to one's own taste. I think a game that has both a good base and offers chances for further modding has a lot to say for it.
Meanwhile, as for this release, I'll get around to buying it when I've got a week free to really get into it. There's nothing more frustrating than just dipping your toe into one of Grigsby's games!

ORIGINAL: obvert

Conceptually it's odd to me it starts in the last 2/3 of the war. I get there isn't much land combat before this, but still seems strange. I'm sure there is a good VP scale to allow the Germans a victory in game, but it seems hard to play a side that is starting on the downward slope from day 1. I know from WITP:AE playing Japan in 44/45 can have it's fun days, but most of the time it's a depressing slog. I haven't read through everything here, but I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else. How do others feel about the start date in game?

That said, all of the improvements (and especially the air model) seem great. I'm with Bullwinkle on the counters. Much prefer visual icons. Maybe there will be a patch to choose a different look?

I'll be looking forward to reading some AARs from the first few weeks and months.

I agree. A game that starts in 1943 misses the ebb and flow of the entire theater. But clearly that's coming down the road, because the mechanics for putting the entire European side of the war together are now in place. Think of the money you pay for this game as a downpayment on the final product! [:D]

[guke]

I fully expect the game to have balancing issues at the start. How could such a complex game not have such issues at launch?

Even in the very unlikely event that it turns out I don't like the game I would still not regret the purchase. I have enjoyed GG games for the last 25 years or so and I would gladly spend the money for this game just to make sure 2by3 will have the funds to make the next game

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm "in" if WitW turns out to be a masterpiece. But based upon what I've seen with the releases of WitE (all kinds of bugs) and WiF (promises not kept, at least after more than a year), I'm leary of making the investment. I want to hear from players I know and trust that the game is fantastic. I don't want to go through years of teething pains on a product that isn't ready or is poorly balanced or is buggy.

I've been spoiled by WitP: AE. Best game ever. I'm pretty sure I'd be happy playing it until my life comes to an end, if only it didn't require so much time! (That's a compliment, by the way.)

So, if WitW is fun and of good quality and doesn't require immense time on the scale of AE, then I'll buy it. But I need to see and hear the reviews from trusted players first.

Hey Dan!
Nice to see you're still lurking around and sniffing

I have your very same concerns, but, as i was telling Obvert this morning by email, i will buy it blind, no matter what.
The fact is that WITPAE is such a good game that i find really hard (almost impossible) to play anything else.
(to be honest, there are evenings - many- where, while laying down with my GF, i can't help but thinking about what Obvert will do in India, how i will manage the Ha-35 Engine production in 1943 or which location is better to fortify for the next allied advance, instead of devoting to what should be the "love of my life"... shhh, don't ever tell her!)
... so WITPAE is such a great game... and i would find a bit "un-grateful" (sp!?) towards the GG Devs team not to buy their newer products not because i've not been happy with their previous, but because i've been (i am) even TOO happy with what they've done so far.
It's like if my clients had such a good feedback from what i've done for them that they wouldn't buy anymore of my services in the future... quite a paradox!

So, i'm gonna buy it. Don't know if i will ever play it (guess so), but i will. Just like as i've done with BTR, WITE etc...

They simply deserve that, imho.

Also i've played BTR enough in the past to know how good the new air system will be. I trust them because i've seen their products. They may have some problems (which product doesn't have em!?) but, for sure, they are the best on town.

my 0,02 cents[:)]