graphics

[RedLancer]

I don't think it's so much the work as the function itself - run a campaign turn and consider how many battles are actually fought in a 7 day turn and you want to animate them all?

Unit ID and CV on a counter is not moddable - were it possible I'd have done it. I started on my road to the WitW team as a modder - kitbashing Starfleet Command 3D models ten years ago. If I thought that there was space for the ID and CV on a counter I'd have started pestering Joel, Gary and Pavel for it months ago and done the graphics to match on spec just in case.

[Grotius]

Thanks for the reply, Red Lancer. Is zoom level moddable? Could a modder add a new, closer-in level of zoom?

run a campaign turn and consider how many battles are actually fought in a 7 day turn and you want to animate them all?

Good point. It's probably asking way too much of a modder to make this viable. But just to daydream: Maybe animations could be tied to the combat-message-level system? Or maybe a separate setting for which animations you'd like to see and which not, and allow the user to flick it on/off mid-stream, as with the combat messages? Or maybe design a system allowing the user to define a threshold of "interesting" animations -- bomb runs that do at least 10% strategic damage, A2A with more than 5 casualties, interdiction attacks that generate 8-plus interdiction, and so forth.

I dunno. It does sound like a huge amount of work for only moderate payoff.

[Werewolf13]

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

I disagree with the Op.This is an old school hex based game.No need to clutter screen with extra graphics,keep it simple.

^^^^
This!

Don't have the game yet but have watched the vids. The maps are currently among the most pleasing for a hex based game I've seen in a long time.

[Werewolf13]

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

Silly graphics are indeed suited to a different breed. I don't understand the tatoo craze the younger generation has taken a liking to, but lecturing them about it isn't going to get you far.

We may sit here in OUR IVORY TOWER smug in out ways and preaching our prowess that we have mastered War in the Pacific AE, yet a simple app like Battle Fleet is a top seller in the Apple ITunes store and is a top seller in the Google app store.

It's a top seller because 1)it is simple and 2)it can be completed relatively quickly

The irony in all of this is the simple graphics used in Battle Fleet or Navy Fleet could easily be used in a complex game like WitP or WitW and that could entice a younger generation to the joys of mastering a complex game with depth.

I disagree. The younger generation is too into INSTANT gratification to enjoy complex games that take days and/or months to complete (except mayber for the likes of that farming game on facebook that some players actually pay others to play for them - geez), short term thinking, simple etc. I see it all the time in my job. Every thing has to be NOW, NOW, NOW! It's not about the graphics. Use 3d graphics for WitP:AE or WitW and keep the rest of the game the same and the current generation wouldn't play either. They're not stupid, not uneducated, not incapable they just have different priorities, focus on life differently, think in a shorter quicker term - its almost like they live in a culture with ADHD.

WitW is more than capable of running on a tablet or mobile device as is. Combine that with graphics from Battle Fleet and think about the possibilities.

I have - they're not pretty...

[KWG]

These types of sims use the best graphics and graphic cards ever made...

The ones in your head.

[sfbaytf]

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

Silly graphics are indeed suited to a different breed. I don't understand the tatoo craze the younger generation has taken a liking to, but lecturing them about it isn't going to get you far.

We may sit here in OUR IVORY TOWER smug in out ways and preaching our prowess that we have mastered War in the Pacific AE, yet a simple app like Battle Fleet is a top seller in the Apple ITunes store and is a top seller in the Google app store.

It's a top seller because 1)it is simple and 2)it can be completed relatively quickly

The irony in all of this is the simple graphics used in Battle Fleet or Navy Fleet could easily be used in a complex game like WitP or WitW and that could entice a younger generation to the joys of mastering a complex game with depth.

I disagree. The younger generation is too into INSTANT gratification to enjoy complex games that take days and/or months to complete (except mayber for the likes of that farming game on facebook that some players actually pay others to play for them - geez), short term thinking, simple etc. I see it all the time in my job. Every thing has to be NOW, NOW, NOW! It's not about the graphics. Use 3d graphics for WitP:AE or WitW and keep the rest of the game the same and the current generation wouldn't play either. They're not stupid, not uneducated, not incapable they just have different priorities, focus on life differently, think in a shorter quicker term - its almost like they live in a culture with ADHD.

Its easy to pile on the younger generation seems to be a theme these days from the business world to the general public at large, but remember we were once young too and I can remember the older generation had their complaints about how we went about life and the ways of the younger generation they never understood.

I even had adults question my interest and passion for computers. They wondered what in the world will you do with that and you need to get serious and learn something real.

I deal with younger people too and yes they have their quirks, but who's fault is that? You can't put all the blame on the younger generation. Their parents, leaders and other adults also share some of the blame for letting that take place under their watch. As they say they isn't such a thing as bad soldiers, but bad leadership.

I wouldn't make a broad generalization that the younger generation is incapable or unwilling to learn something complex.

[Talon_XBMCX]

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

Silly graphics are indeed suited to a different breed. I don't understand the tatoo craze the younger generation has taken a liking to, but lecturing them about it isn't going to get you far.

We may sit here in OUR IVORY TOWER smug in out ways and preaching our prowess that we have mastered War in the Pacific AE, yet a simple app like Battle Fleet is a top seller in the Apple ITunes store and is a top seller in the Google app store.

It's a top seller because 1)it is simple and 2)it can be completed relatively quickly

The irony in all of this is the simple graphics used in Battle Fleet or Navy Fleet could easily be used in a complex game like WitP or WitW and that could entice a younger generation to the joys of mastering a complex game with depth.

I disagree. The younger generation is too into INSTANT gratification to enjoy complex games that take days and/or months to complete (except mayber for the likes of that farming game on facebook that some players actually pay others to play for them - geez), short term thinking, simple etc. I see it all the time in my job. Every thing has to be NOW, NOW, NOW! It's not about the graphics. Use 3d graphics for WitP:AE or WitW and keep the rest of the game the same and the current generation wouldn't play either. They're not stupid, not uneducated, not incapable they just have different priorities, focus on life differently, think in a shorter quicker term - its almost like they live in a culture with ADHD.

WitW is more than capable of running on a tablet or mobile device as is. Combine that with graphics from Battle Fleet and think about the possibilities.

I have - they're not pretty...

+1 ... especially on the instant gratification point. I look at a NATO counter and it gives me all of the information I need. Of course, I didn't get that good in 5 seconds and it took a little bit of study to actually remember what they all mean. There is a reason militaries use symbology. For me, it adds more to the immersion.

I don't think it will be long before we have a WitP Tracker type of addon that will enhance our feedback from the combat results

[sfbaytf]

ORIGINAL: Panman

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

Silly graphics are indeed suited to a different breed. I don't understand the tatoo craze the younger generation has taken a liking to, but lecturing them about it isn't going to get you far.

We may sit here in OUR IVORY TOWER smug in out ways and preaching our prowess that we have mastered War in the Pacific AE, yet a simple app like Battle Fleet is a top seller in the Apple ITunes store and is a top seller in the Google app store.

It's a top seller because 1)it is simple and 2)it can be completed relatively quickly

The irony in all of this is the simple graphics used in Battle Fleet or Navy Fleet could easily be used in a complex game like WitP or WitW and that could entice a younger generation to the joys of mastering a complex game with depth.

I disagree. The younger generation is too into INSTANT gratification to enjoy complex games that take days and/or months to complete (except mayber for the likes of that farming game on facebook that some players actually pay others to play for them - geez), short term thinking, simple etc. I see it all the time in my job. Every thing has to be NOW, NOW, NOW! It's not about the graphics. Use 3d graphics for WitP:AE or WitW and keep the rest of the game the same and the current generation wouldn't play either. They're not stupid, not uneducated, not incapable they just have different priorities, focus on life differently, think in a shorter quicker term - its almost like they live in a culture with ADHD.

WitW is more than capable of running on a tablet or mobile device as is. Combine that with graphics from Battle Fleet and think about the possibilities.

I have - they're not pretty...

+1 ... especially on the instant gratification point. I look at a NATO counter and it gives me all of the information I need. Of course, I didn't get that good in 5 seconds and it took a little bit of study to actually remember what they all mean. There is a reason militaries use symbology. For me, it adds more to the immersion.

Once again you can't make these sorts of judgements and think they are set in stone. Before the 2007 credit crisis there were plenty of articles and talk about how the younger generation was the generation who was too self absorbed and raised in an environment where they were told and believed they were special and could do anything.

The economy had a different say in that and now they are the generation that isn't so special and can't do anything. The have suffered double digit unemployment and a brutal job market.

The instant gratification will too get taken care of one way or another. Life has a way of sorting things out.

As for the NATO symbols and symbology...well like I've said before the younger generation was raised in a more graphical world and they will figure out for themselves.

The military will too shift and adapt. Those drone operators are looking at some very graphical interfaces. Its not the same as the 70's and 80's.

Remember too that back in the day when board war games ruled you had to do a lot of the back end work manually. A lot of the traditionalists who clung to the old ways would lament how the younger generation who were using the newfangled computer to play war games at the expense of the older established board war games were labeling the young computer players as lazy and into instant gratification who didn't want to do the grunt work and let the computers do all the work for them.

As much as we would like to think of companies like Matrix as game designers, in reality they are a technology company who designs software. They are also hostage to the platform that will run what they develop. Anyone with any real firsthand experience knows just how fast technology companies can sprout up and grow and how quickly they die. Those who refuse to adapt die. Its as simple as that.

Look 5,10, 15 years down the road. Where will the PC and the software that runs on be? Look at PC sales and the trend line. You may today say complex games look and feel terrible on tablets and other mobile devices, but if that's what the future holds and you didn't adapt to the reality then you die.

Sure they will still be PCs in the future, but what will those willing to produce and incur the cost to develop and produce that software will have to charge to remain in business?

[jnpoint]

Well, it seems to have ended up with a fruitless debate. It was not my intension. I just wanted visual help in a very complex game with a lot of possibilities.

I just suggested it because I really like the game mechanisms, and I do find the graphics very basic. But I must apparently realize that it is the way this target group want it.

Of course I can just go away and buy another game that is up to date visually, and I will, but this game is so interesting that I have to play it anyway. I only wish it were up to date visually too. Remember, I did buy this game despite the graphics, so I'm not complaining about the gameplay at all.

And as for NATO counters - just boring - (sorry if I'm offending anyone).

[zakblood]

no you are right as it's your thread so agree, more could have been done to make it more appealing to a wider audience but as you have seen the target ones have been reached and nobody cares less about others, sorry a few do so won't say all or didn't mean that bit either...

modern to most means not realistic or not a sim, so it seems you can't have a great war game and great graphics either, you get a great engine and great game play but low end graphics to appeal to the masses who buy it...

so agree Nato counters are very boring, good job they have been modded already, now some ones else may do the same with the rest, hopefully[X(]

[:D][;)]

[sfbaytf]

We all have ideas of what we'd like but in the end we have what we have and its great. HOIT to me looks great, but the engine behind the game isn't good. I like the presentation of Panzercorps and it plays well. I actually would like to see something like that combined with the deep play of WitW.

For now I'm happy with what I have.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: zakblood

no you are right as it's your thread so agree, more could have been done to make it more appealing to a wider audience but as you have seen the target ones have been reached and nobody cares less about others, sorry a few do so won't say all or didn't mean that bit either...

modern to most means not realistic or not a sim, so it seems you can't have a great war game and great graphics either, you get a great engine and great game play but low end graphics to appeal to the masses who buy it...

so agree Nato counters are very boring, good job they have been modded already, now some ones else may do the same with the rest, hopefully[X(]

[:D][;)]

warspite1

Shows how difficult it must be for game makers. I love the NATO symbols - would not want to play with anything else for ground units.

[Grotius]

Likewise -- I love the NATO symbols. To me, they're the mark of a serious wargame, at least at this scale.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

I don't think it's so much the work as the function itself - run a campaign turn and consider how many battles are actually fought in a 7 day turn and you want to animate them all?

+1 to this.

As a long time WitP player, I can tell you when you run a ONE day turn heavy with air/naval action, especially late in the war, you very quickly realize how much time is eaten up watching these graphics. The opening turn where the attack on Pearl occurs can take an hour to just run the turn [X(]

Give an even more intense environment over a week, I shudder to think how long that would take with animations. It would be like watching a movie before I could do a turn again.

The first few would be fun, but once everyone realize what a time sink the animation were, they would turn them off. Just like people do in AE.

Fortunately in AE you can actually skip the playing of the battle animations but even with that, in WitW you would be skipping 99% of the animations anyway.

Now if adding battle animations in is very easy and they would work the same way as in WitP AE, then go for it. But it would still be the last thing on my list to do. I'd much rather have them spending time on an upgraded Eagle Day/Bombing of the Reich as a DLC/Expansion than combat animation for WitW. But that is just me [:)]

[Banquet]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

I don't think it's so much the work as the function itself - run a campaign turn and consider how many battles are actually fought in a 7 day turn and you want to animate them all?

+1 to this.

As a long time WitP player, I can tell you when you run a ONE day turn heavy with air/naval action, especially late in the war, you very quickly realize how much time is eaten up watching these graphics. The opening turn where the attack on Pearl occurs can take an hour to just run the turn [X(]

Give an even more intense environment over a week, I shudder to think how long that would take with animations. It would be like watching a movie before I could do a turn again.

The first few would be fun, but once everyone realize what a time sink the animation were, they would turn them off. Just like people do in AE.

Fortunately in AE you can actually skip the playing of the battle animations but even with that, in WitW you would be skipping 99% of the animations anyway.

Now if adding battle animations in is very easy and they would work the same way as in WitP AE, then go for it. But it would still be the last thing on my list to do. I'd much rather have them spending time on an upgraded Eagle Day/Bombing of the Reich as a DLC/Expansion than combat animation for WitW. But that is just me [:)]

In AE I mostly skipped the animated battles as well - but it was nice to watch some of the key engagements. The descriptions of what's happening are already in WitW and you can skip them, just as in AE, it's just the pictures of the units firing at each other that are missing as far as I can see. I do agree though, there are probably more important things for the dev team to do

[zakblood]

you can only skip something if its there in the first place, that's your choice as an option, for others who wish for it in at the start, they don't get an option to view it even

case closed tbh as your point is made well, those who wish to skip something have an option[;)]

but to have that option it has to be in it first, so there is no option...

and there is no reply to the serious wargame, as that statement was made for board games many years ago, change or die, and most died, so point hopefully made and understood...

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: zakblood
...and there is no reply to the serious wargame, as that statement was made for board games many years ago, change or die, and most died, so point hopefully made and understood...

I don't really agree with this--every game I have played with sprites does not allow for stacking, and I am pretty firmly convinced that you can't have a "serious wargame" without stacking... So I generally steer clear of games with sprites instead of counters.

[bairdlander2]

Here is a screenshot with interdiction,factories and logistics on.I don't think we need more than this.

[sfbaytf]

As much as I have strong opinions about all of this I do love the game as is and look forward to any expansion. In fact I'm seriously considering buying an extra full boxed edition or 2. The reason being I have a sense this could be the last War in the West we will see and there is only 1 Greg Grisby. I don't really see anyone in the wings quite like GG and if there ever is a computer games hall of fame he deserves to be in it.

Had I known back in the day SPI would fold and 25 years later games like War in the Pacific, Campaign in North Africa would sell for 5 to 6 times the amount you could have bought them for I would have gladly plopped down the $40 for extra copies and left unopened. This version of WitW could possibly fall into the same category. I hope not, but I've been around high tech and have seen how rapidly it can change and brutal it can be.

It’s been 20 years since the last War in the West/East and 20 years from now there is a good chance the standard computing platform may not be the PC as we know it. They will still be around, but not as we now know them or used by only a small base of users. Perhaps War in the West will evolve, perhaps not. I honestly can't see the next version in 20 years, if developed being cheap given the economics and if you have people balking today at paying appx $100 you can only imagine how it will be if the prices continue to escalate higher and the potential base of buyers smaller.

So enjoy what you have in your hands.