Magically evac from pocket?

ratprince · Post by **ratprince** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:42 pm

Im concerned, irritated and bemused by the ability of the Axis to evac from a pocket I created.

I flanked the finally mountain range in italy from both sides and created a one hex wide gap by Mantova. There was a huge pocket from Genoa to Ravenna with over 20 visible divisions inside at the end of my turn. They were all mostly in mountain hexes and rough and it was raining.

Start of my next turn there are three divisions in the pocket and now there is a fully formed line of axis divisions from venice to verona north of this pocket.

My concern is there was no rail line connecting...and no possible way they could have used MPs alone to get out. simply moving through the ZOC would have used up most of their move pts let along moving out of the mountains and 15 hexes north....

It is VERY frustrating. I had 200k men trapped...now they have a new defense line....

Whats the deal here?

MechFO · Post by **MechFO** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:00 pm

WITE/WITW rules say that any supply connection at all (even port only) means units can rout out of a notional pocket.

One way of looking at it is that a turn covers a week, and non phasing units are not actually just sitting still. Arguably it works fairly well for the Russian steps, but I agree it starts to break down in the West especially when routing out of islands.

As the naval aspect becomes more important a revision of this mechanic will become unavoidable.

ratprince · Post by **ratprince** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:04 pm

No..no...

No routing.

My turn. Pocket created with 20 Axis divisions with only a ten mile corridor to escape and likely 60 or so move points to be able to get out.

Axis turn. All but a couple units made it out of the pocket and formed a line 80 miles north of the pocket.

Impossible to do.

carlkay58 · Post by **carlkay58** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:15 pm

Mike, are you playing against the AI? Cuz the AI CHEATS! If you are playing against a human then it is a bug. The AI gets to cheat in order to be better against us humans.

Smirfy · Post by **Smirfy** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:33 pm

Movement speed especially AI movement speed under pressure is bewildering. WiTE was generally nonsensical with regards movement I was hoping for a vast improvement.

MechFO · Post by **MechFO** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:43 pm

ORIGINAL: mike mcmann

No..no...

No routing.

My turn. Pocket created with 20 Axis divisions with only a ten mile corridor to escape and likely 60 or so move points to be able to get out.

Axis turn. All but a couple units made it out of the pocket and formed a line 80 miles north of the pocket.

Impossible to do.

Ah, the teleporting AI, that sounds like a bug that was in WITE until it was fixed 2? years ago.

ratprince · Post by **ratprince** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:50 pm

It is one of two things.

Intentional cheating to save the AI from big mistakes

-or-

A bug.

Playing against the AI. It was doing fine. I just made two big thrusts at once from both coasts with some heavy para drops and busted an encirclement. Then, 20 divisions leave the pocket and reform in level 2 and 3 forts somehow in another line 80 miles away.

I mean, I get that the AI is mentally challenged. But, it makes the game unplayable and un-fun versus the AI when it does things like that. it was doing well..holding a line, making some counter attacks at penetrations...then...magic retreat...

Annoying.

Klydon · Post by **Klydon** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:18 pm

AI did the same thing in WitE. If you don't have a pocket sealed, what is inside is getting away, no matter how many movement points it takes.

Just have to plan accordingly when making pockets vs the AI.

jazman · Post by **jazman** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:24 pm

Im concerned, irritated and bemused by the ability of the Axis to evac from a pocket I (probably erroneously) believe I created.

See? Fixed for you. Magic AI.

ratprince · Post by **ratprince** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:26 pm

heheh....

So what is the pocket escape threshhold? When does the AI "think" it needs to escape??? How does one know when you are too close to causing them to teleport?

Fun sci fi game...yay

Joel Billings · Post by **Joel Billings** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:03 pm

We constantly struggle to balance the needs to have generic routines that allow the AI to move units around without calculating every cost in every instance versus the desire not to have the AI obviously cheat. Without these shortcuts the AI would not be able to overcome its stupidity and/or the game would grind on for so long that players would be very unhappy. Gary has actually worked hard at this, but with every change in the AI code, there is a chance that something gets out of whack. It is not supposed to be able to get out of pockets like the one you describe, and we had many instances in testing where they didn't (and others where they did at times that we tried to work on). What we need is a save at the start of the AI turn where the AI does something it clearly shouldn't. If you can attach it here or email it to 2by3@2by3games.com then Gary will work with it and try to improve it.

BTW, the AI is so complex that it often has a mind of its own. Gary will make a change in the code only to find that some other routine buried in the AI is ignoring the change and it still makes a bad move (either cheating or making a stupid move). Only with saves can he determine how the AI is making the illegal move and try to fix it. We appreciate your help in trying to improve the AI.

ratprince · Post by **ratprince** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:45 pm

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

Dont get me wrong, I love the game and have been playing non stop since release and played all the other GG games forever. It is just a bit frustrating when you work for 20 turns {50 man hours} to orchestrate something and then POOF...magic.. hehe...

Ill send the save before and after the "escape from Italy"...hhhehe...

marion61 · Post by **marion61** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:19 pm

ORIGINAL: MechFO

WITE/WITW rules say that any supply connection at all (even port only) means units can rout out of a notional pocket.

The way to stop units in this situation is to make sure you destroy all the ports available to them. If the port is destroyed, they can't rout out that way.

ratprince · Post by **ratprince** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:00 pm

This is not a routing teleport issue. This is a "no possible way they moved that far in their move phase" issue...

marion61 · Post by **marion61** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:01 pm

I was replying to MechFO's comment.

ratprince · Post by **ratprince** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:06 pm

ahh...gotcha. sorry

Gorforlin · Post by **Gorforlin** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:15 pm

ORIGINAL: mike mcmann

It is one of two things.

Intentional cheating to save the AI from big mistakes

-or-

A bug.

Playing against the AI. It was doing fine. I just made two big thrusts at once from both coasts with some heavy para drops and busted an encirclement. Then, 20 divisions leave the pocket and reform in level 2 and 3 forts somehow in another line 80 miles away.

I mean, I get that the AI is mentally challenged. But, it makes the game unplayable and un-fun versus the AI when it does things like that. it was doing well..holding a line, making some counter attacks at penetrations...then...magic retreat...

Annoying.

WitE AI was kinda ok at release and has gotten allot better, I am sure WitW AI will do the same.

Magically evac from pocket?

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